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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 18,802
Loc: Journal Land
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22033148 - 08/02/15 12:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Me and the scientific method never clicked. I could explain to you Bohr's atom but couldn't tell you what thought process lead to what. When I experiment I do it on the fly, this is waaay more organized then anything I have done. For instance, I fruited off agar with a casing layer of CVG once just for the lulz with an extremely prolific KSSS clone and ended up babysitting it for a good 2 weeks before it pinned, and they weren't even that great.
The lack of water content plus a highly nutritious substrate (This was when I was using Pasty's recipe but adding a bit of Karo) lead to delayed pinning, slow colonization of the casing and finally lack luster fruits.
But they were potent as fuck for small fuckers lol.
I love what's going on here and I understand it but as for me helping you like Bob? Idk, you guys seem to really mesh. With that being said I read everything and will no longer hold my tongue if I come up with anything.
Your idea is extremely solid though, which is what I find interesting. If the tubs RH is at 99% why not experiment with bigger holes and less surface RH? Cubensis in the wild most likely has a wildly fluctuating pallete of humidity but I don't know this for a fact.
Regardless, you know where I stand with you Mike, 100% support
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: taGyo]
#22033204 - 08/02/15 12:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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You are right, Tagyo. That is exactly what I am spending my day doing. I have made my new hole placements, patched up the holes in my lids and increased my exhaust holes which were detetmined by my observed averages this past friday+saturday. Now I'm in the process of once an hour, increase my inlet holes size starting from my first drill size and will move up fraction of an inch by fraction of an inch until I see rh begin to drop.
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 18,802
Loc: Journal Land
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22033255 - 08/02/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Perfect, this will let you gauge just how much FAE you can bring in that will induce pinning and hopefully create massive mushrooms.
I think bigger holes are the way to go, mushrooms LOVE FAE and I think we as growers put to many restrictions on them. As long as the tub is hydrated and not drying out (This is where a casing will definitely help) then mushrooms will form.
Now it's just up to finding the point of diminishing return.
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: taGyo]
#22033271 - 08/02/15 12:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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i cant wait for mike to finish-
just think of the fruiting chambers you could make!
its the pans im waiting around for lol
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: mustangbob3]
#22033405 - 08/02/15 01:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Surface Level Temperature 77*F Exhaust Holes Level 77.5*F
It may not be much of a difference but the difference is there. Perhaps, if the system was larger, the differences may be more profound. Anyway, no change in rh just yet. Going to increase inlet hole size from 5/64" to 3/32".
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22033470 - 08/02/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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i wouldnt expect a larger difference anyhow.
but there is a difference 
and gyo im 1 part help, 1 part hindrance i think
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: mustangbob3]
#22033698 - 08/02/15 02:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just finished drilling the largest sized holes that I can possibly put into the tub without having to reconfigure the equation for more air displacements. I think I'm going to give it a few days and see how things come along. It occured to me that maybe I'm not accounting for long term amount of work done by the mycelium. What if the system builds pressure over time? Which over the long term, temp differentials become greater and humidity differentials become more narrow because of overall moisture loss from the substrate. With less moisture perhaps the mycelium needs to work harder which may cause the temperatures to rise and thus force more moisture loss. Do you see the hypothetical cycle I'm trying to draw for you?
During the hyphal knot/ primordia stage, we want 95+% rh at the substrate level to induce pinning. Maturing mushrooms demand more moisture for cell growth and need less moisure in the air. Perhaps with the primordia stage, the mycelium is less active so temps stay low and humidity stays high because of its relativity to temperature. As the primordia begin to grow into mushrooms, the mycelium becomes more active which raise the temps which lower the humidity because of its relativity to temperature.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22033841 - 08/02/15 02:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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these are all things your going to learn.
observation is your best friend here. making too many changes means you wont no how the first designs would have behaved further along into the cycle.
meaning you may not have had to adjust as much as you think.
it makes sense too that as the cycle goes on there will be less water added to the air from the myc as it drys up and water is accumilated in the fruits.
i think lower humidity wont hurt too much toward the end as the mushrooms fruits and the spaces between create pockets with there own little micro climates
and more air exchanges per hour might not be to bad or should i say wont be to bad as long as its not at the expense of the water in the sub.
it will have to balance so the sub retains enough moisture to last.
saying that, just look at cron fruiting without an fc! and in nature too it has unlimited lol so more air exchages cant be bad. as long as you can maintain surface humidity for the first part of the fruiting cycle you should be fine. once fruits are growing they sort of lend a hand in creating micro-climates as i said above making the job easier and more tolerant of lower humidity air
Edited by mustangbob3 (08/02/15 02:57 PM)
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: mustangbob3]
#22033970 - 08/02/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said: these are all things your going to learn.
observation is your best friend here. making too many changes means you wont no how the first designs would have behaved further along into the cycle.
meaning you may not have had to adjust as much as you think.
it makes sense too that as the cycle goes on there will be less water added to the air from the myc as it drys up and water is accumilated in the fruits.
i think lower humidity wont hurt too much toward the end as the mushrooms fruits and the spaces between create pockets with there own little micro climates
and more air exchanges per hour might not be to bad or should i say wont be to bad as long as its not at the expense of the water in the sub.
it will have to balance so the sub retains enough moisture to last.
saying that, just look at cron fruiting without an fc! and in nature too it has unlimited lol so more air exchages cant be bad. as long as you can maintain surface humidity for the first part of the fruiting cycle you should be fine. once fruits are growing they sort of lend a hand in creating micro-climates as i said above making the job easier and more tolerant of lower humidity air:)
I have a plan for comparison. Even though I increased air flow in tub 1, I did not increase air flow in tub 2. The results will be inconclusive of course because I did not use an isolate but it will atleast give me a direction to head toward if one tub out performs the other.
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Darkhome
•Shaman•N•Training•



Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 517
Loc: United States
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22034764 - 08/02/15 06:29 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- “The shaman is not merely a sick man, or a madman; he is a sick man who has healed himself.” ~Terence McKenna~ "NOTHING"...I post or say is "TRUE"...Any pictures are taken from the Web and any conversation is just research for a fictional character. That being said; He is constantly seeking knowledge and evolving.
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Ajahn Don
Stranger


Registered: 07/05/15
Posts: 482
Loc: The buckle of the Bible belt
Last seen: 9 months, 1 day
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: Darkhome]
#22035892 - 08/02/15 11:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darkhome said:

Me, too.
-------------------- "He's not altogether dense, but he's not altogether there."
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22036719 - 08/03/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Looks to me like you are over thinking things and even if you get the hole placement perfect in one room it won't work the same in another room with different temperature, RH and air flow. If you are having fun figuring out how a mono works that's cool but I don't see anything tangible coming from this. Monos work great they way they are. I haven't had to take time to dial one in, in over a year. Maybe it's because I see myself as a farmer not a scientist but I don't get the point.
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: MudaFuka]
#22036839 - 08/03/15 09:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes. We certainly do have different goals in this hobby. If I had to guess, I would say that 80% of this community spends 99% of the their time focusing on genetics and either completely ignore nutrition and environment or they just don't fully understand how those sciences interact with genetics. That's why I'm here. I am what the rest of this community isn't (I don't mean that in an offensive way).
Yes. My tub design will be tuned into my environment but that doesn't mean that my system will not work for everyone else.
The way that I see it, is that you can keep fondling your polyfil (speaking to the masses) or you can build tubs that are specific for your environment. If you know your temp in, temp out, humidity out and altitude, I will be able to build schematics for your specific needs.
Some may stick their nose in the air at me for saying this but progress is not made by standing still. I am okay with you sticking to what is tried and true but there are others out there like me who want to know the dynamics behind great monotub conditions.
What if I could prove what the best combination of conditions for best pin set are? The most ideal evaporation rate from the substrate? The best time of day to introduce fruiting conditions? Etc. Would you be interested in my work then?
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Darkhome
•Shaman•N•Training•



Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 517
Loc: United States
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22037127 - 08/03/15 11:02 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can never be satisfied just to know that something works...I have an obsessive need to understand the "Why" and "How"...I was that kid that took everything in the house apart to understand it... Mike is that same kid grown into an Intelligent Adult with the experience and knowledge to actually Answer some important questions... I hope this is coming across as the compliment I mean it to be... In short ...keep up the Great Work Mike!
-------------------- “The shaman is not merely a sick man, or a madman; he is a sick man who has healed himself.” ~Terence McKenna~ "NOTHING"...I post or say is "TRUE"...Any pictures are taken from the Web and any conversation is just research for a fictional character. That being said; He is constantly seeking knowledge and evolving.
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: Darkhome]
#22037202 - 08/03/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Like I said I don't need to dial my tubs in anymore. I use permanently affixed eco felt on the bottom and 8 1" holes on the top that stay open when I fruit upstairs in the summer and lightly stuffed with poly when I fruit in the winter or in my basement. They work perfectly that way so I never found a need to fuck with them. I'd rather spend my time working on things like genetics, nutrition and different growing methods.
I don't think I stand still. The masses weren't using my current methods when I first got here.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: MudaFuka] 1
#22037310 - 08/03/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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No1 Improvement always seems to be when you figure out that listening to the mushrooms is the best advance you can make
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: bodhisatta]
#22037424 - 08/03/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
MudaFuka said: Like I said I don't need to dial my tubs in anymore. I use permanently affixed eco felt on the bottom and 8 1" holes on the top that stay open when I fruit upstairs in the summer and lightly stuffed with poly when I fruit in the winter or in my basement. They work perfectly that way so I never found a need to fuck with them. I'd rather spend my time working on things like genetics, nutrition and different growing methods.
I don't think I stand still. The masses weren't using my current methods when I first got here.
I'm not trying to change how you do things, muda. You also should know by now, how much respect I have for you and the work that you've done. The difference between you and I, is that I am not a farmer. I am an amateur mycologist trying to better my understanding of mushrooms and what the triggers are for optimum growth. This leads me to bodhisatta.
Quote:
bodhisatta said: No1 Improvement always seems to be when you figure out that listening to the mushrooms is the best advance you can make
Mushrooms don't talk so there is no point in listening. You may have the experience to know what gives you great results but you can not prove it using the universal language (math), so your point is invalid in this thread.
I think you and muda are for some reason feeling threatened by my work. Why? I'm not sure but even if I stopped posting my studies, I will still be taking this on with or without the community. So any lurkers out there who are interested in my work but have not introduced yourself to me, do so now. Everyone else who has shown their interest, please reitterate that for me.
If you care about my work, post a thumbs up. If you don't want me to continue to post my results and want this thread locked, post a thumbs down.
If by tomorrow morning, I have more thumbs down than thumbs up, I will have this thread locked. If I get more thumbs up then thumbs down, I will continue to post my results and those of you who don't like it can move the hell along.
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22037470 - 08/03/15 12:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't feel threatened. You asked me to look at this thread so I did. If you hadn't asked for my opinion I would have left well enough alone. I honestly don't care AT ALL how ANYONE grows. I do what I do and answer people honestly when they ask me questions. I don't mean to shit on your work. If it interests you cool. It's just not my thing.
Oh and mushrooms do talk. They speak loud and clear. Learning to listen to them is the most valuable skill in this hobby. I use math all day every day. Most people do. It's the basis of everything. Growing mushrooms though I do by feel.
don't lock the thread. Keep doing what interests you.
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13shrooms
Lightning Shaman



Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 26,719
Loc: IN ETHERS TORSION FIELD
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22037473 - 08/03/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
insanemike said: Maturing mushrooms demand more moisture for cell growth and need less moisure in the air. Perhaps with the primordia stage, the mycelium is less active so temps stay low and humidity stays high because of its relativity to temperature. As the primordia begin to grow into mushrooms, the mycelium becomes more active which raise the temps which lower the humidity because of its relativity to temperature.
mature mushrooms grow by cellular expansion not cellular division so moisture uptake is the only thing needed to mature. pin/primordia formation uses the most energy
and myc creates the most heat energy during colonization not fruiting.
your way overthinking his whole monotub design.
polyfill is your adjuster in monos, you tighten the poly to raise humidity and lower fae you loosen the poly to lower humidity and raise fae.
its that simple its ohmatic 
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8231041
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A M U Click here ^ for the AMU forum VVV AMUs Free Active/Edible/Exotic Spore Print or Syringe or Edible Culture Trade Thread VVV "Man is the sex organ of the machine world" ~ Marshall McLuhan
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SteveRogers
gandy dancer



Registered: 10/24/06
Posts: 3,450
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Re: Monotub Improvement Project preliminary test run #1 [Re: insanemike]
#22037474 - 08/03/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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God Damnit.
Mike don't let this drama you down.
If this thread goes belly up, please PM me the raw data. I would like to go through it and see what I can see.
-------------------- "General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"
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