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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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"is there a "species gene"? "
No. In fact, species with similar enough DNA can produce offspring, in some cases, even fertile offspring, for example, polar bears and grizzlies. Species is the outcome of taxonomy, DNA is what makes animals what they are, and each single one is unique.
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Is race real? [Re: xFrockx]
#22005326 - 07/27/15 04:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "is there a "species gene"? "
No. In fact, species with similar enough DNA can produce offspring, in some cases, even fertile offspring, for example, polar bears and grizzlies. Species is the outcome of taxonomy, DNA is what makes animals what they are, and each single one is unique.
That is true, but it doesn't negate the usefulness of species classification in biology.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is race real? [Re: extreme]
#22005458 - 07/27/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
extreme said: I often do wonder how we would classify different "races" of people in a biological sense. We aren't different species or subspecies now right? Does that mean we can still be different "breeds" as someone else kind of mentioned in this thread?
That's sort of how I suppose one might go about analogizing it. Compare it to dogs. All the morphologically and tempermentally different breeds are really the same species: canis familiaris. So would it not make sense to extrapolate this to humans, and consider the differently environmentally shaped races as different breeds of homo sapiens? This would naturally suggest that the different "breeds" would have, on some level, varying characteristics, even though they all belong to the same species. Is this not possible?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Words can be useful if the distinctions are false, not arguing that. The question is about whether race exists.
Are racial classifications useful? Not to me.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Like how pit bulls are ferocious?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is race real? [Re: xFrockx]
#22006255 - 07/27/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, for example, Border Collies are the same species as Chihuahuas, and their temperaments, behavior, personalities, aptitudes etc. are all markedly different. I'm not going to draw any human parallels, as it would probably embroil me, but can there not be a similar analog among humans, albeit possibly not quite as pronounced? Or is this too taboo to even entertain at this point?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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spock
journeyman
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 1,165
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It is simpleminded(not saying you are) comparison. Genetic diversity among blacks is greater than whites. To make assumptions based on skin color is simple, it is easy, it is wrong. Add culture. What, are we really just going to do this. Drunk, dirty, violent Irish(my great grand mother was born in Ireland). Greasy fuckin Italians always beating their women. Shifty and prone to organized crime involving prostitution and gambling. Lazy fucking blacks always looking for a hand out. Damn Jews. long fuckin nose demons. How long could I go on with this simple minded shit. Why does this community even have so many threads about this dumb shit? The few that keep(not OP but utfse) this philosophy alive. Talking like it is an intellectual question. It isn't. Sorry. End rant. Sensitive much? Not much. Not many people of color here so yeah, I'm gonna represent.
Peace Spock
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extreme


Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 9,340
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Or is this too taboo to even entertain at this point?
I think that is precisely why we can't (or really we just don't) have an honest discussion about it. I believe we can only grow as a species, as a whole, if we can just be honest about ourselves and our behaviors and all that. Well, that's just my two cents, I really do believe that and hold it as an ideal, but to say being honest about ourselves as a whole will actually work is another story. I'm not sure the world is ready... "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" *JN voice*
But I digress I could keep going but I think it would be only a little off topic. Yes only a little, but a little indeed.
Kinda shows how personally we take things eh? We have no problem classifying different dog breeds, so what is the harm in doing that for humans? No dog breed is inherently bad; and the same goes for humans (except the blacks) IT'S A JOKE I HAVE A DARK SENSE OF HUMOR Alright but seriously -_- then again I suppose it is worth asking - what good would it be to divide races up, or give them credibility in the same way of dog breeds?
I forgot if it's been asked yet, it probably has, but whether or not race is real, if we treat is as real, the best question may be, is it useful?? I think it has its obvious pros and cons... possibly more cons though, but that's on us 
@ Spock - damn, we're not trying to offend anyone, especially in this forum. Race discussions in the pub might as well just be, I dunno, useless, not that this discussion in this forum is anything more than just a friendly discussion itself. Keep in mind this IS the science minded subforum, and that all the stereotypes you just mentioned aren't really taken as seriously here (if you know what I mean). The pros/cons I ended my last paragraph with - an obvious con would be stereotyping.
I don't think anyone here is trying to break things down in this thread to stereotyping, and especially anything negative about other people. Take it easy man
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spock
journeyman
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 1,165
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Re: Is race real? [Re: extreme]
#22007047 - 07/27/15 09:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
extreme said:
@ Spock - damn, we're not trying to offend anyone, especially in this forum. Race discussions in the pub might as well just be, I dunno, useless, not that this discussion in this forum is anything more than just a friendly discussion itself. Keep in mind this IS the science minded subforum, and that all the stereotypes you just mentioned aren't really taken as seriously here (if you know what I mean). The pros/cons I ended my last paragraph with - an obvious con would be stereotyping.
I don't think anyone here is trying to break things down in this thread to stereotyping, and especially anything negative about other people. Take it easy man 
Thanks, really. I've had a couple of drinks tonight and kind knew not to hit submit. Racism and discrimination are real in the U.S. and it gets tired. It wears on the spirit. The dog comparison though. Who's the pit bull and who's the chihuahua? Now I'm joking. Peace and all love. Spock
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extreme


Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 9,340
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Re: Is race real? [Re: spock]
#22007140 - 07/27/15 10:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Of course 
I normally wouldn't concern myself with a thread like this (like my Pub example - I leave the hot topic issues alone there cuz many people don't take them seriously like they should) but in PSP nobody is attacking other people or groups... only ideas.
Which also does mean you have the right to say what you just said too; it's great since we all have a voice and can freely express our thoughts and opinions. No question racism and discrimination are still huge problems in the USA (and really anywhere in the world to some degree) another topic we could branch off from this one might be why do we discriminate, and is it "natural?" and stuff like that. Again I'm not saying good or bad, just objective type of questions.
In my first paragraph in my previous post I was mentioning how being honest with ourselves as a society, I think, is a good thing and what we need to do in order to progress. Your reaction kind of makes me want to reiterate that. Running from problems usually never solves them, but it does get tiring, haha. It's good to have civil discussions like this. The civil rights movement sure did a hell of a lot at changing some of the more institutional racial issues, among others.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Is this about revealing truth? Is it a perennial questions? Or is it "science"? Clearly it's not anything new, as if we didn't have the knowledge to reflect on this in the late 19th and early 20th century.
The idea of lifting up the hood on taboos and political correctness is attractive in itself, but I think if you get beyond that it doesn't matter much whether there are objective lines to draw about race. How would they be considered significant?
It would have to be considered relavent to something in some sense, and if we are not talking about politics or reactionary impressions, we can be certain that people only talk about the existence of race, to express some herd instinct. Knowledge - whatever it is - is expressed such pragmatic utility.
Consider the possibility that the reason people don't admit to thinking this way is not because it is outrageous, and creates polarity, but because it is dull and banal.
The argument against racism as banality would be that even if it has any objective basis (truth); it would be besides any point, if it is not significantly important. For instance, it is possible to see that noble qualities which belong to the individual, as much as the whole of the human species (including its groups) are in relation much more novel and significant than what is found in particular groups.
So again if politics are thrown aside, it would seem reasonable to say that in any circumstance where someone would consider race significant, it would have to be found in what they choose to see, or something based on perspective.
I not arguing that this would manifest something, as values and way of thinking, even though it would do that. What I mean is that wherever there is a choice to vest in herd instinct, there is at the same time the possibility to recognize one's fellow individual human, and in that there is what we choose. Race is what we choose to see in that true binary sense.
The philosopher Heraclitus wrote that the world is found in strife and union of opposites. That could mean many things, to this discussion but what I would single out for the sake of argument is this. The pack animal and the individual, are like sides of a coin; to see one is to look away from the other. Some things are just like that, and that's just the way they are.
You probably do not talk about the cells of your body in their uniqueness or special importance outside of how they are generally maintaining the collection and diversity of what you are. Neither are your lungs more special than your heart, nor your heart more special than your brain, even though they have describable uniqueness.
Every description of truth, is found in a perspective. Some truths, more than others.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Loc: Northeast
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Border collies and chihuahuas are individually different, I've never met two that acted totally the same. Been around plenty of both.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 6 hours
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Re: Is race real? [Re: extreme]
#22008912 - 07/28/15 10:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Also, why the fuck does an "honest discussion" about race have to include accepting race?
Here's my honesty, race is an unfounded concept, and people who refuse to examine it enough to witness that are fucking morons.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Is race real? [Re: xFrockx]
#22008940 - 07/28/15 10:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Border collies and chihuahuas are individually different, I've never met two that acted totally the same. Been around plenty of both.
"are individually different"
So what? That doesn't change the fact that different breeds (races) exist.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Is race real? [Re: qman]
#22009464 - 07/28/15 12:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Patients with sickle cell disease have a mutation in a gene on chromosome 11 that codes for the beta subunit of the hemoglobin protein. As a result, hemoglobin molecules don't form properly, causing red blood cells to be rigid and have a concave shape.
There are genetic markers for race. Defining what a race is is the hard part. Race is only a concept when you have a large groups of people.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Re: Is race real? [Re: qman]
#22009799 - 07/28/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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"So what? That doesn't change the fact that different breeds (races) exist."
Taxonomy is useful but is not a true dividing line as per DNA.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Loc: Northeast
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There are genetic markers. Period. Genes exist.
Race is a description.
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usulpsychonaut


Registered: 05/12/08
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The black white supremacist president of America Barack Hussein Elijah Muhammad Obama recently attempted to convince Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta to give homosexuals a break. The Kenyan establishment informed Obama that oppression of LBGT folks is a non-issue and that Obama should shove his faggot white supremacy up his ass.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Is race real? [Re: xFrockx]
#22015481 - 07/29/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: There are genetic markers. Period. Genes exist.
Race is a description.
I agree. I don't define race as a sub-species. I define race as a set of physical traits in a group of people common to an isolated geographical region over a period of time. I wouldn't bet the farm on that definition it's just what I came up with off the top of my head.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Marihuana
Stranger


Registered: 08/29/14
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You sound racist right now...
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