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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22009422 - 07/28/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If you add water to dry grains and PC at 15psi I find they can explode at the bottom and upper ones can be semi dry. Semi dry grains are much harder to sterilize, I have tried a fair bit before. I read a guy who visited aloha medicinals and they were telling students to cook/hydrate at 5psi for 30mins, leave 12 hours or so and then do them at 15psi, I think for 90mins.

Other users here said aloha's own regime has a lot more heat treatment, so this must just have been for students with access to regular equipment.

It makes sense to me, they hydrate and in the process kill lots of contaminants at 5psi, they do not do a room temp presoak. Then they leave 12 hours as a form of intermittent sterilization, allowing any remaining contaminants to grow and leaving them open to easily be killed during the second heat cycle.

I have hydrated grains like this. Cooking in water in the jar at 5psi and letting it cool a bit and shaking it up, the grains at the bottom were wetter but after the shake it disperses them well. I did not bother with the 12 hours wait though.

Its odd how measuring moisture content has fallen out of favour. I had a thread ages ago listing all the popular vendors and experienced growers water contents. Since the PF bust most vendors do not give any such advice. But you can find it about if you search hard.


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InvisibleMikeBearPig
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: blackout]
    #22009486 - 07/28/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
If you add water to dry grains and PC at 15psi I find they can explode at the bottom and upper ones can be semi dry. Semi dry grains are much harder to sterilize, I have tried a fair bit before. I read a guy who visited aloha medicinals and they were telling students to cook/hydrate at 5psi for 30mins, leave 12 hours or so and then do them at 15psi, I think for 90mins.

Other users here said aloha's own regime has a lot more heat treatment, so this must just have been for students with access to regular equipment.

It makes sense to me, they hydrate and in the process kill lots of contaminants at 5psi, they do not do a room temp presoak. Then they leave 12 hours as a form of intermittent sterilization, allowing any remaining contaminants to grow and leaving them open to easily be killed during the second heat cycle.

I have hydrated grains like this. Cooking in water in the jar at 5psi and letting it cool a bit and shaking it up, the grains at the bottom were wetter but after the shake it disperses them well. I did not bother with the 12 hours wait though.

Its odd how measuring moisture content has fallen out of favour. I had a thread ages ago listing all the popular vendors and experienced growers water contents. Since the PF bust most vendors do not give any such advice. But you can find it about if you search hard.




Such good info here guys. 

I do have an update on something..  Something strange

The grains that I hydrated/sterilized with a PC cycle (15 psi 90 min), then PC'ed again (because I had to weigh the grain inside) are not growing any mycelium.

I asked Inocuole if his longer soak time was for endospores to hatch to kill them in the PC.  It is not part of his TEK, but might as well be. 

On the other hand.. I have never hatched any endospores and never had problems unless I had a bad inoculate.


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22009497 - 07/28/15 12:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting, I've never actually put mycelium to a jar done that way.  It won't leap off the wedge?


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Inocuole]
    #22009525 - 07/28/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Interesting, I've never actually put mycelium to a jar done that way.  It won't leap off the wedge?




I am misunderstanding something :frown:  I need to smoke to get my head straight. brb

I really don't know what you are saying lol


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22009537 - 07/28/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MikeBearPig said:
The grains that I hydrated/sterilized with a PC cycle (15 psi 90 min), then PC'ed again (because I had to weigh the grain inside) are not growing any mycelium.





So, I don't know how you inoculated, it looks like agar wedges to me.  Is the mycelium straight up refusing to jump to the grain?  Or did you noc em with spores?  Spores don't like germinating on oats.  But... if it were spores, what the fuck are those squares in the jars?

The first sentence I was just saying that the method that I suggested you to do, I pulled out of my ass and have only ever done on test jars, but never a jar that I actually knocked up. :lol:


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Inocuole]
    #22009576 - 07/28/15 12:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Quote:

MikeBearPig said:
The grains that I hydrated/sterilized with a PC cycle (15 psi 90 min), then PC'ed again (because I had to weigh the grain inside) are not growing any mycelium.





So, I don't know how you inoculated, it looks like agar wedges to me.  Is the mycelium straight up refusing to jump to the grain?  Or did you noc em with spores?  Spores don't like germinating on oats.  But... if it were spores, what the fuck are those squares in the jars?

The first sentence I was just saying that the method that I suggested you to do, I pulled out of my ass and have only ever done on test jars, but never a jar that I actually knocked up. :lol:




Ohh, I knocked up all the experimental jars with a LC I made.

All the other ones have growth but the PC ones..  It is way to long for them not to show anything, the others are like 20% colonized.

Edit : Agar?  Me?  hahahha


Edited by MikeBearPig (07/28/15 01:19 PM)


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22009832 - 07/28/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm... I suppose there's something to the soak, and probably also something to the double PC run.


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22009836 - 07/28/15 01:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MikeBearPig said:
The grains that I hydrated/sterilized with a PC cycle (15 psi 90 min), then PC'ed again (because I had to weigh the grain inside) are not growing any mycelium.



I usually write my jar weight (including cap and filter) on the lid, and current info on the sides. So there is never a need to open a jar. So my jar might be 300g, then I add 150g dry grain, I might add 170ml/170g water and microwave it to hydrate. Then entire weight might be 610g afterwards, which means 10ml of water was driven off during boiling, 610-300-170-150=-10. I then might PC and it might drop to 605g, a further 5g/5ml driven off.

Weighing is good in case anything goes wrong or you are suspicious that it might have. Weighing is also very useful when dunking. Weigh your containers and substrate and you can determine if you have dunked too long or too little between flushes.

e.g. if your container is 200g and substrate is 1000g then the total is 1200g. If you harvest a flush of 200g wet you can estimate that 20g of this is dry material, now you can expect a drop in weight from the substrate too. So the container is still 200g and the substrate is now estimated at 980g. So if I dunked and it came out at 1180g I would be happy, if it was higher I have dunked too long and its likely to be over field capacity.


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: blackout]
    #22009905 - 07/28/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
Quote:

MikeBearPig said:
The grains that I hydrated/sterilized with a PC cycle (15 psi 90 min), then PC'ed again (because I had to weigh the grain inside) are not growing any mycelium.



I usually write my jar weight (including cap and filter) on the lid, and current info on the sides. So there is never a need to open a jar. So my jar might be 300g, then I add 150g dry grain, I might add 170ml/170g water and microwave it to hydrate. Then entire weight might be 610g afterwards, which means 10ml of water was driven off during boiling, 610-300-170-150=-10. I then might PC and it might drop to 605g, a further 5g/5ml driven off.

Weighing is good in case anything goes wrong or you are suspicious that it might have. Weighing is also very useful when dunking. Weigh your containers and substrate and you can determine if you have dunked too long or too little between flushes.

e.g. if your container is 200g and substrate is 1000g then the total is 1200g. If you harvest a flush of 200g wet you can estimate that 20g of this is dry material, now you can expect a drop in weight from the substrate too. So the container is still 200g and the substrate is now estimated at 980g. So if I dunked and it came out at 1180g I would be happy, if it was higher I have dunked too long and its likely to be over field capacity.





I only opened the jar so I could get the weight for writing this TEK :smile:

The jar had all the nasty sticky stuff inside it still.. I figured the only way I was going to get an accurate weight of the grains was to empty it out, strain the left over water and weigh them.

I then rinsed them off, stuck them back into the jar and PC'ed them again.


Edited by MikeBearPig (07/28/15 02:13 PM)


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22010693 - 07/28/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I just started 7 more.

They are in the PC using 160ml per 100g of water.

It's a very loose numbers, everything is either off or over by 10g.  It should be close enough to where it should not matter (which is the goal)


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22013476 - 07/29/15 06:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I give up.. I ran my PC all day with different amount of water both in the jars and PC..  I propped some jars up after the 2nd time, filled with less water.. I tried everything.  These fuckers explode no matter what I do.

I cant stop the bottom layer of oats from blowing out while using the PC/Sterilize method.

Somebody else with a different kinda pressure cooker might have to take this one on for the oats!


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22014547 - 07/29/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I doubt it's the PC, we can just chalk it up to a bad idea and I'll be less than offended.


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Inocuole]
    #22014583 - 07/29/15 11:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
I doubt it's the PC, we can just chalk it up to a bad idea and I'll be less than offended.




I really wanted this one to work..  When you said it, I started dreaming of never hydrating again.. it came to a screeching halt yesterday though.  Can you try out a few jars for my sanity?  I was so upset yesterday.. :frown:


Edited by MikeBearPig (07/29/15 11:46 AM)


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22016047 - 07/29/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I can, yeah.  But I dunno if I really want to.  Other people have done it successfully, there's a tek with somebody doing WBS this way and showing growth.  Don't remember whose...  It's definitely not the best method or the cleanest.


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Inocuole]
    #22016134 - 07/29/15 05:22 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
I can, yeah.  But I dunno if I really want to.  Other people have done it successfully, there's a tek with somebody doing WBS this way and showing growth.  Don't remember whose...  It's definitely not the best method or the cleanest.




I would like to update as of this morning it has growth.

The only reason why it is even growing though is because I took them out, weighed them and then rinsed them off a 2nd time to wash away all the bursted grains.

When I am doing this method, the bottom 1/2 are all bursted every time.  It would be stupid to run a PC cycle to empty them, wash them, and PC them again.  I would call that a worthless tek.

The only way this is going to be viable for us is if it works the first time, every time.  I just can't reproduce the results.


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #22019955 - 07/30/15 01:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
I think Stamets recommended up to 160ml per 100g in smaller jars, saying smaller jars could tolerate higher moisture levels.




Quote:

MikeBearPig said:
They are in the PC using 160ml per 100g of water.




I checked again and I got that wrong sorry. It was 150ml per 100g, I also meant to say it was the highest I have seen. I only read it more recently in GGMM. the 150ml was for 16oz jars. It was 100g rye, 150ml water and 0.5g gypsum. His 10L jar recipe was for 2200g rye, 1500ml water, 8g gypsum, a hugely different ratio.

This was my old thread listing several recommended ratios
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4371401

I still think at lower ratios you will get exploded grains. I would recommend at least cooking a while, open the PC, shake jars and recook.

With rye grass seed there is no issues with exploding. In videos of commercial sclerotia growers you see them putting bags into an autoclave and the grains were visibly dry with water in the bottom of the bag.


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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: blackout]
    #22021005 - 07/30/15 05:22 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The PC grains actually did not have growth, i had them mixed up.  I think bacteria got in the jar, I broke it up today to see what was going on and only found a small chunk of solid mycelium.


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