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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21983971 - 07/23/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I love the side by side visual of the kernels. Nice experiment.
This may be a little off topic but I have found my grains come out of the pc looking very dry on the outside with little to no effort to shake loose. Instead of letting the hull completely dry before pc'ing, I have opted to not fully hydrate my grain any longer (that goes for oats and every other grain I prepare). I actually leave the center of the grain dry and let the grain soak up the excess moisture on the hull during sterilization.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21983981 - 07/23/15 10:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lots of them look like they have bacteria in them. The one in the middle off center to the right especially. I mean don't get me wrong, people will have success with bacterial stuff, and lots of the times their cultures are so aggressive they won't even know it was there. Bacteria is hard af to fight off in spawn. This is why they recommend you inoculate a freshly pcd jar within 3 days. To give it a head start, so it'll overpower the bacteria.
Quote:
Mad Season said: They didn't have wet grains stuck to the jar side. It was bacteria. A properly pasteurized bulk substrate has beneficial microbes that fight bacteria off. In fact if mycelium takes the upper hand like the jars in those pics, more often than not it won't be a problem. However it will ruin pinsets, slow down colonization rates, and EXTREMELY increase chances of other contaminations like trich or cobweb.
All those jars were used to make their own separate trays. The ones that were clean easily pumped out twice as much weight.
Dirty spawn:

Clean spawn:

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MikeBearPig
Not liked.


Registered: 07/15/14
Posts: 2,319
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: insanemike]
#21983988 - 07/23/15 10:28 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
insanemike said: I love the side by side visual of the kernels. Nice experiment.
This may be a little off topic but I have found my grains come out of the pc looking very dry on the outside with little to no effort to shake loose. Instead of letting the hull completely dry before pc'ing, I have opted to not fully hydrate my grain any longer (that goes for oats and every other grain I prepare). I actually leave the center of the grain dry and let the grain soak up the excess moisture on the hull during sterilization.
I never let anything dry before PCing. I just have a method of shaking I do, its more like dropping but. I have found it to be better for me to leave a coating of water on the outside or my wbs looks dry or loses hydration in the PC.
After doing the oats.. I am never doing WBS again.
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MikeBearPig
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Registered: 07/15/14
Posts: 2,319
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21983992 - 07/23/15 10:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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None of those jars have bacteria. It is just the color of the grain on the side of the glass buddy.


this is the tub
Edited by MikeBearPig (07/23/15 10:32 AM)
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21984004 - 07/23/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lol well you can think that. A real clean jar wouldn't have any visible wet grains on the sides. They look like they aren't colonized because they can't be. Bacteria is stopping it. Metabolites also generally indicate there's a contamination present too. This is the exact reason why I started agar and upping pc times. To get rid of those wet grains.
Also I said lots of the times it'll colonize and fruit just fine. It just increases chances of contamination and lowers overall yield.
Edited by Mad Season (07/23/15 10:34 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21984006 - 07/23/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would vote they're not 100% clean. Buy a 150$ scope and surprise yourself.
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MikeBearPig
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Registered: 07/15/14
Posts: 2,319
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Mad Season]
#21984014 - 07/23/15 10:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: Lol well you can think that. A real clean jar wouldn't have any visible wet grains on the sides. They look like they aren't colonized because they can't be. Bacteria is stopping it. Metabolites also generally indicate there's a contamination present too. This is the exact reason why I started agar and upping pc times. To get rid of those wet grains.
Show me jars of your WBS. You can either show me an example of somebody using WBS with no grains on the side you trust or show me yours.
It really does just look like that.
Also, I don't wait for 100% colonization. I don't have time. If i have 5 jars that look 100% I will grab another one if its nearly done and just throw it in.
https://files.shroomery.org/files/14-40/237933997-gtslurryday6.jpg
Edited by MikeBearPig (07/23/15 10:46 AM)
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21984040 - 07/23/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I showed you the cleanest I could get it before I quit wbs in my bacteria quotes. They just have a retarded amount of endospores that survive even 2+ hours in the pc. You should ask maddchef, he had a retarded time with wbs's endos. Would survive 3.5-4 hours in the pc.
Anything animal grade and that starchy is pretty much bacteria haven. Ask pasty what he had to do to completely get rid of grains with endos. He had to run 2 pc cycles. 1 at like 20 psi then 1 at 60? That's why if I was to do small grains again, I'd do straight millet lol
Edited by Mad Season (07/23/15 10:46 AM)
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MikeBearPig
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Registered: 07/15/14
Posts: 2,319
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Mad Season]
#21984056 - 07/23/15 10:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: I showed you the cleanest I could get it before I quit wbs in my bacteria quotes. They just have a retarded amount of endospores that survive even 2+ hours in the pc. You should ask maddchef, he had a retarded time with wbs's endos. Would survive 3.5-4 hours in the pc.
Anything animal grade and that starchy is pretty much bacteria haven. Ask pasty what he had to do to completely get rid of grains with endos. He had to run 2 pc cycles. 1 at like 20 psi then 1 at 60? That's why if I was to do small grains again, I'd do straight millet lol
In all my tubs.. the only time I have seen a bacterial contamination is.
When condensation builds up on a freshly spawned tub and it pools on the substrate, it happens a lot on my KSSS for some reason.
After the substrate has put out multiple flushes and has been handled.
Aside from that.. I don't get Trich outside of bad inoculate fruit fly's.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21984074 - 07/23/15 10:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well if it's working for you then don't fix what's not broken right? I live in a 70s farm house with dogs everywhere lol. This is just what I had to do to make sure I don't get trich or anything, because my first attempts generally either contaminated or had shitty af yields. For me, being anal is what got me into the 99% success group. I wouldn't ever go back lol
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MikeBearPig
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Registered: 07/15/14
Posts: 2,319
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Mad Season]
#21984081 - 07/23/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: Well if it's working for you then don't fix what's not broken right? I live in a 70s farm house with dogs everywhere lol. This is just what I had to do to make sure I don't get trich or anything, because my first attempts generally either contaminated or had shitty af yields. For me, being anal is what got me into the 99% success group. I wouldn't ever go back lol
Maybe I am just having the illusion of luck from my climate. I don't live in a desert , but its fucking hot here.
I just make sure my LC is good and everything falls into place.. Seems like a auto-win if you have clean inoculate.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21984140 - 07/23/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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It really helps too because liquids like that will have a 24-48 hour recovery, and take off amazingly. Spore syringes take awhile to germinate, giving it that much more time for the bacteria to spread if inoculating grains. The faster it colonizes, the better off you are. So you are right. A cleanly germinated inoculant is the best. If you do that you're pretty much good to go. I still don't even think my spawn is 100% clean and sterile after a 2 hour cycle. It almost seems impossible. I see why every TC says clean spawn is the hardest to do, so I too depend on a fast spreading clean inoculant.
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MikeBearPig
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Registered: 07/15/14
Posts: 2,319
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Mad Season]
#21984146 - 07/23/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: It really helps too because liquids like that will have a 24-48 hour recovery, and take off amazingly. Spore syringes take awhile to germinate, giving it that much more time for the bacteria to spread if inoculating grains. The faster it colonizes, the better off you are. So you are right. A cleanly germinated inoculant is the best. If you do that you're pretty much good to go. I still don't even think my spawn is 100% clean and sterile after a 2 hour cycle. It almost seems impossible. I see why every TC says clean spawn is the hardest to do, so I too depend on a fast spreading clean inoculant.
I start all my LC's from spores..
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21984159 - 07/23/15 11:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I said if you're inoculating grains lol. I meant spores to grains. Spores to liquid would be fine (assuming the spores are clean) because liquids are 10x easier at sterilizing due to the consistency. Sorry I didn't make that clear enough.
Edited by Mad Season (07/23/15 11:27 AM)
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MikeBearPig
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Registered: 07/15/14
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Mad Season]
#21984162 - 07/23/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: I said if you're inoculating grains lol. I meant spores to grains. Spores to liquid would be fine (assuming the spores are clean) because liquids are 10x easier at sterilizing due to the consistency. Sorry I didn't make that clear enough.
I do a 30 min PC run for my LC's, That is one thing I do take an extra step on. Everything else I just sweep under the rug.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#21984216 - 07/23/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lol you can even sterilize liquids and agar in the microwave after 5-10 minutes. The consistency of liquid is really good at transferring heat. Way better than grains lol. Yeah I pc agar and lcs for 40 minutes. I believe 15-20 is all you need. I just want to be safe lol
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Mad Season]
#21984361 - 07/23/15 12:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Interesting that the thing I suggested worked so well for you. I'm thinking that method is probably really good for LI and LC because of how all the extra shit is still in there for the mycelium to catch onto. However, it could also be prone to bacteria for the same reason, it does look a little gooey until you give it a few shakes.
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MikeBearPig
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Registered: 07/15/14
Posts: 2,319
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: Inocuole]
#21987527 - 07/23/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I made 3 LC's and Pulled a fresh genetic's out of one of my LC's. Transfered it to 3 new liquid cultures and knocked up the experiment. I just wanted to show that each method should work perfectly fine, can't really lose if you follow instructions.
I updated the main thread to reflect this also.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: MikeBearPig]
#22005410 - 07/27/15 04:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Good to see people still monitoring mosisture levels, seems to be a lost thing that nobody bothers to do anymore. I think it is a far more exact way of comparing grow methods, someones grain, pot, power source etc can easily lead to different hydration levels. Yet grains themselves seem fairly consistent, i.e. your grains might be 10-15% moisture so by tracking weight/moisture you can more easily compare to what others are doing.
So if someone says "I had 100g rye and boiled for 30mins" and it was 200g after then if you cook at a lower power for 30min it might be only 180g and you might cook for longer. Or depending on other factors.
Quote:
MikeBearPig said: Microwave : I was overly impressed by the microwave. It needed WAY more water than any other method though. It seemed to cook off the water more rapidly than any of the above. Either way, the grains still look great. A few exploded but nothing serious and they are nicely hydrated!
45min on full power is way too much. Once you get to boiling you can lower the power level right down and just keep it simmering. Most would not leave their stove on full power all the way through a boil, if you did you would similarly cook off more water. There is no need, not only is it a waste of power but you risk more exploded grains. There is a common myth where people say grains can never get above 100C in a microwave unless ALL moisture is boiled off ALL grains. This is utter bullshit. Some grains are like mini pressure cookers, popcorn has to heat well past 100C before it explodes and pops. Grains in a microwave can have a similar explosion but less dramatic. You will often hear reheated chicken popping/exploding in a microwave due to pressure build up.
All your grains are drier than most recpies which mention moisture content call for. I remember some guide recommending trying various hydration levels for different grains. Some people would add a fixed amount of water to grain and just PC it with unsoaked grains. They would recommend trying out 100ml, 105ml 110ml & 115ml per 100g of grain, and see which does best. Then you repeat this. The current commonly used methods of boiling for a fixed amount of time is normally going to be less accurate. 1ml of water is approx 1gram.
I think Stamets recommended up to 160ml per 100g in smaller jars, saying smaller jars could tolerate higher moisture levels.
I think RR reckoned his ended up about 40 or 45% moisture content, which is quite low, not sure if he was calculating in the same way I would, i.e. if 100g of grain gets 100ml or 100g of water added it is NOT 50% moisture, it is more since the grain already has moisture in it.
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MikeBearPig
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Registered: 07/15/14
Posts: 2,319
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Re: MBP's Ultimate Oat Hydration Guide [Re: blackout]
#22005901 - 07/27/15 05:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said: Good to see people still monitoring mosisture levels, seems to be a lost thing that nobody bothers to do anymore. I think it is a far more exact way of comparing grow methods, someones grain, pot, power source etc can easily lead to different hydration levels. Yet grains themselves seem fairly consistent, i.e. your grains might be 10-15% moisture so by tracking weight/moisture you can more easily compare to what others are doing.
So if someone says "I had 100g rye and boiled for 30mins" and it was 200g after then if you cook at a lower power for 30min it might be only 180g and you might cook for longer. Or depending on other factors.
Quote:
MikeBearPig said: Microwave : I was overly impressed by the microwave. It needed WAY more water than any other method though. It seemed to cook off the water more rapidly than any of the above. Either way, the grains still look great. A few exploded but nothing serious and they are nicely hydrated!
45min on full power is way too much. Once you get to boiling you can lower the power level right down and just keep it simmering. Most would not leave their stove on full power all the way through a boil, if you did you would similarly cook off more water. There is no need, not only is it a waste of power but you risk more exploded grains. There is a common myth where people say grains can never get above 100C in a microwave unless ALL moisture is boiled off ALL grains. This is utter bullshit. Some grains are like mini pressure cookers, popcorn has to heat well past 100C before it explodes and pops. Grains in a microwave can have a similar explosion but less dramatic. You will often hear reheated chicken popping/exploding in a microwave due to pressure build up.
All your grains are drier than most recpies which mention moisture content call for. I remember some guide recommending trying various hydration levels for different grains. Some people would add a fixed amount of water to grain and just PC it with unsoaked grains. They would recommend trying out 100ml, 105ml 110ml & 115ml per 100g of grain, and see which does best. Then you repeat this. The current commonly used methods of boiling for a fixed amount of time is normally going to be less accurate. 1ml of water is approx 1gram.
I think Stamets recommended up to 160ml per 100g in smaller jars, saying smaller jars could tolerate higher moisture levels.
I think RR reckoned his ended up about 40 or 45% moisture content, which is quite low, not sure if he was calculating in the same way I would, i.e. if 100g of grain gets 100ml or 100g of water added it is NOT 50% moisture, it is more since the grain already has moisture in it.
I did the fixed amount of water in the jar, than ran it through a PC cycle. I used way too much water. Next time I am feeling frisky I will run 7 jars side by side.
I did 400+ ML and had barely any water to strain out of it in the end.
Edited by MikeBearPig (07/27/15 06:02 PM)
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