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Stranger Registered: 07/25/14 Posts: 879 Last seen: 1 year, 5 months |
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I ordered 5 of these cactus, they are supposed to be Trichocereus Pachanoi but I think they look more like Peruvianus.
Any ideas?
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Friend to all Registered: 01/18/13 Posts: 11,726 Loc: In heaven bored |
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Do you have a pic of the growth tip "for both of them" I can look at?
They do not look like pachanois to me.
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Noaidi Registered: 10/18/10 Posts: 2,627 Loc: EU Last seen: 7 years, 4 months |
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You have probably 5 seedlings, grown from seeds picked and germinated for sale?
Grow 'em few years and see. I would not say anything from young seedlings because you should know it from source you get your plants anyway. ![]() Some pachanoi's I have, from seed. They have had lots of small spikes, but another one seems very different from pachanoi seedlings I've seen that size. But it's hard to say because I can't even see scale properly in photo's without something familiar object in pic to compare. I have only one pachanoi with huge central spike. And pachanoi from cuttings and from seed. Only another seems it maybe that species, but they are probably not gonna have that form after few years when they really form to columns. Some loose their spikes later when they grow faster as bigger. Some increase spine growth till get older or change it. And the fact is trichocereus seedligs may differ very much even seeds are from one plant. Seedlings and big adult growth and change of it seems to have lots of variation even inside species. I would not say right one is pachanoi, it's not similar I've seen as seedlings. Some have small spikes as seedling, some bigger but not similar to right one. You should trust your vendor or person give 'em to you and label of it. Only way to know for sure basically. Buy plants from source you trust if possible. San Pedro (or t. pachanoi) may reffer to certain type of trichocereus or not. Depends alot as well where you are. Just grow 'em and see how they form. Edited by intelligentlife (07/22/15 02:23 PM)
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Samder's 4 prez' Registered: 01/27/14 Posts: 1,510 Loc: Alameda Co. |
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I'd label those Cuzcoensis
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Stranger Registered: 07/25/14 Posts: 879 Last seen: 1 year, 5 months |
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Thanks I'll get some more photos tonight. I actually have some more seedlings from a different source which are younger. I purchased p torch, bridgesii and pachanoi. They all look quite distinctively different with the pachanoi looking quite straight with small spikes. The torches have that larger head which they seem to have from tiny babies.
As soon as I get chance I'll post some more photos with something to use for a size reference.
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Noaidi Registered: 10/18/10 Posts: 2,627 Loc: EU Last seen: 7 years, 4 months |
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But, there's much more than spikes to do ID. And pics isn't always easy compared to situation you can see the plant.
Just use labels from source you have plants and find trusted source for them, or do label "trichocereus sp." so they are as accurate as can be. I keep labels based on continents, countries, persons and so on. Just to know myself where the clone is from. Otherwise I use label from nursery. I do labels only to unknown ones. Letters and numbers mean when I've got the clone and what month and year. Also letters tell me where it's from etc. I don't bother to label all on my own and change label. There's still some nurseries may sell bridgesii and peruvianus labeled trichs looking more like cuzco-something. Just because they have spikes enough big. It' situational and remember, vendors and nurseries are after money anyway. So don't make your self a fool to get played by vendors, it can happen. People argue enough 'bout peruvianus and seems there's lots more than one peruvianus strains around. So most of the times it's easy to vendors sell spiky trich labeled to peruvianus. Imma not huge fan of taxonomy even I use some labels, there's still many trichs you can say as "san pedro" as trivial name and define the purpose of plant. Varietys alot. Some even say bridgesii as "san pedro" because of.. It doesn't mean only one clone, especially in taxonomy is all similar. Taxonomy of plants will gonna change occasionally anyway. I don't want to disrespect those who want to use exact labels to most of times to cobulars(I like t do that as well) but with unknown plants it's different. And with trichoereus it's relatively easy to mix up labels to your own purpose to satistfy your own mind. Even the fact is, you have done label yourself without background information or data of plant(s). Do whatever you want, depends where you are and what labels you gonna get but here EU few countries have t. pachanoi only as "illegal" so often people mislabel them on purpose to make those spineless columns "legal" plant. Some EU countries doesn't enforce cacti by police. What's happen in USA or Australia, I don't know about that but seems USA Predominant cultivar clone have caused a bad reputation to all t. pachanoi labeled plants and seedlings. So therefore peruvianus labels sell better. Example: Person in EU read from internet to want to find out "best" species of trichocerei. After a while they read their opinion towards t. pachanoi may change negative polarized because of one cutting spread around USA Nurseries as decorative landscape plant. But it's just a one clone among many of them. Clones are different in different continents. Only few collectors may have certain clones from another continent what nurseries do not sell. Bridgesii and pachanoi would be (in certain scenario) best bet in EU to buy. And it may depend where in EU you are. Bidgesii as it's know can't be find from all nurseries. They are not so easy to keep nice and without sunspots. Only smooth skin cuttings and healthy ones makes profit. Depend on climate where nursery is what clones or species they like to grow to make possible to cut them and sell clones. Or have cutting clone good enough it won't get ugly spots to skin so easy so it stays good for sale without scars, black bumbs etc. buyers may not want or feel ripped off if they receive cutting with symptoms they don't know and blame nursery. Anyway, don't worry too much with labels of trichs and ID should be done by combination of features of whole plants, from spikes to flowers and form of whole plant and knowing the climate plants have cultivated. It's still hard to make accurate ID from picture. Someway, it's even pointless. Most species is possible to ID from flowers and form, many of them. Mammilarias and many other. Trichocereus is species what have had possible to move around mountain habitat by humans so they are likely formed over millenia or two to form they are now. One fruit of seeds, especially hybrid ones. You may have totally spineless easy to label it t. pachanoi(instead of hybrid it is) and sister of it may have big spikes. Depends what clone is father and mom etc. But variation is huge. Basically if I have hybrid trich, later on turns to spineless cactus. It could be labeled as t. pachanoi and sell it forwards without buyer even makes a question about it. Because hybrid is spineless cactus. I mean in theory it's easy to bullshit people with labels if you want to. Even easier it is to bullshit yourself. No matter what, source you need to trust to not get played in business. And I don't mean those nurseries are mean evil ones generating hybrids and sell them as different label, just making a point about. IF in case, I have later on down the road hybrid with small pachanoi-like spikes. Basically only I need to do is label it as t. pachanoi and probably everyone as well ID it from picture as pachanoi. Even tho in reality it's a mixture of different plants, happened to grow spineless one. Ofc then I would not tell to buyer plant have sisters what doesn't even look like it. Human behavior and need to cultivate certain type of trichocereus plants in their habitat have formed possible hybrids long time before even whole continent haven't been discovered. It's still obvious, you can find trichs growing from old human build ruins and they have been moved there and who knows where exactly. So new clone with human help have been able to spread their pollen to clones of area it's been planted. Humans may even have sown sown seeds and collected them and take care of them so odds to get more variety to geneticss hve increased because humans have cultivated the species long enough from cuttings and seeds. Ofc there's valleys in montains with certain type of plant form. Another highland valley may have differnt form plant than another etc. But certain type of trichocerus have had legs to move around longer than you can imagine. No one know how long distances native people there have travel around mountains to get clones to their yard to grow. Modern business in time scale of few millenia is just a split second. And reason it's said they are all hybridized is it may have happen long time ago, then inbreed have (likely) happened too and human assistance of seed sow and taken care more seedlings survives when human take care of them. Over decades and so on, new pollen is spread and seeds may be have father originally not even should be father without human have moved the father plant. History of trichocereus (if you read it what you can find) is relatively complex compared to several other species anyway. Seems there's few groups of these trichs humans have attracted to long time ago. Bridgesii seems it's develop in dry areas, and Pachanoi's have differences depends are they from Ecuador, Peru, Chile and what kind of highland area they have been succeed to grow. Some tolerate more rain and cold and damp. Some of them doesn't tolerate it all. Even their flowers are relatively similar and they can make offspring with good germination. To me; ID trichs based of appearance of plant(what forms by sun and other factors) is same than you ID mushroom based on what's underground. What doen't make so much sense. No wonder there's rumors around peruvianus is best by potency of it if understanding of plants and species is Limited to one clone, not one species or subspecies. Some south americans do not separate certain plants, but they don't mind to sell them to westerners if they want spiky torches, they'll gonna find a plant spiky enough to be "peuvianus" for you. ![]() Roots of mislabeling may not be even in nurseries or those having nursery. What people demand will going to appear to business for sale. Demand of certain appearance cause it's gonna be sooner or later pop up the market for sale. Just saying, I don't believe 100% to taxonomy if these certain type of trichocereus are able to make better seeds by having pollen what's not inbreeding. Indicates to me they are very close relatives all and possible subspecies. If plant really get different species pollen, it may not accept it or seeds are bad or do not germinate. It's possible to mix up totally two different species but only in luck you may even have seeds. If so, t may be even harder to get seeds to germinate or grow. Would be easier to believe labels without question without knowing history of certain type trichs humans have involved. And ofc different continents have different plants most of them. Depends totally of demand by buyers. Modern day common business is good, but another way it makes nurseries to sell possible mislabeled plants because people themselves want label A have to have appearance they want. It's not problem to nurseries tho.. Just don't stress so much of what you have.. Or if you don't trust vendor, leave name trichocereus only to label. So it's more likely labeled correctly, even not so accurately in that sense. And ofc if comparing EU to Australia (example) nurseries on these continents operate differently. As well as people does. In EU they have Limited amount of space at most of area of EU, it's different in Australia. It's even different in south and north EU. EU nurseries at some lever trade bulk amounts to each anothers and have connected by the people in nursery. I don't know much Australian nurseries but their climate is very suitable to grow these plants and importing isn't so essential to keep cutting enough to satisfy demand I assume. USA is as well different at level of nurseries and people. So whole ID-stuff and labeling them, there should be more than picture. One clone(only spread via cuttings) can be grown to several forms, especially if it's prone to change based on sun light and UV-radiation streght, humidity, temperatures, days of sun per year etc etc... It's relatively essential to know background where plants are from and like I've said seedlings vary more and don't even need climate changes to be different. Clones may increase/decrease spikes based on climate and spines seems to grow different patterns, depends on photoperiod of grow season. There are clones more prone to change pattern of appearance than anothers. But seems here, most of them tend to turn same appearance even they are not same clone, differences seems they may vanish away with many clones and eventually they look like same plant even they haven't been even near similar form, if speaking of certain type of trichs only. Pictures in that sense may fool enough. Only thing is; I've paid attention to overall spine growth and aeroles etc, those certain type of trichs do not have dark base of central spike as plant cuzcoensis named used to have, and I'm excluding the hybrids off not to create confusion. Those ones people like to have I haven't seen they have dark base of spike. But I don't really know does it tell a shit about. Based on that I've managed to find out those ones most people in general like to have in cultivation. Too long post so far, I don't start to define colors of spikes and white hue covering the color but dark base of central spike I've noticed only among cuzco-looking cuttings/seedlings. Pachanoi, Peruvianus and bridgesii label plants do not have dark base of spike. If so it's random and not so visible than cuzco-looking ones. Only peruvianus labeled ones seems to have very dark spikes, pachanoi label ones with spikes do not stay dark and their growth tip coloration of spikes is different a bit. And pachanoi's with spikes tend to get easier white hue on them. Just observations from my garden and plants I've seen. And do not confuse seedling spine growth and form to adult section form. Imo even +1meter trichoereus is still seedling size in scale how big they really grow. Just buy and grow them to see what they might be. I bet same to Jay Z, but if I'm unsure with label, I would remove it and replace it with "trichocereus" only. It's more accurate than false labeled tho. Still not accurate enough, depends how you want to do. Those are no matter what, too small to ID and most trichs may be even impossible to ID 100% without big background data of them and their origin. So vendors are one should be tell the truth if they sell them as labeled. It tends to be they want to satisfy customers to buy more so people who demand certain form of plants as certain label. Fuck, they'll gonna "find" it for you. ![]() If you know any history of these plants and connection to people and trade. You realize making labels can be easy or most cases hard. Best way is to know what source you have and do source of plants know how much you know about these plants. Nurseries themselves know most of times labels are there to satisfy customers. They know species is relatively hybridized and there's lots of different variation inside one species as well. From seed it's very unlikely you get similar plants if it doesn't always work with cuttings as well because one cloned cutting spread around may have different forms, depends locaton where it grows and how much sun exposure they have. Same climate can cause two different looking cactus from same mother if you grow another in diffused light and another in ful baking sun. It is not so easy based on taxonomy because seem different continentss have different ways to operate in level of nursery and growers.. One from continent A may bet all spiky clones to t. peruvianus, but continent B may have similar pachanoi's still different from peruvianus in continent B. And continent C may not even have same clones much or at all than others, or they have totally or almost fully different variety of species not possible to grow easy in another contient and climate. Just saying, making any ID from picture without information add with pictue at all seems pointless. If you suspect your source, then it's not probably the one you want to buy plants from. Because at the end it's only "solid" data from plants you can get by trusting the vendor. I know one, they know and have said to me that hybridization is too complex and those plants won't gonna sell if there isn't even some labels and "standard" to satisfy people. It's Paradox because if people know all nurseries know, most of them would get mad. Even tho, plant is the one many people want to have. With trichs, not all nurseries believe their own labels and think they are just big hybrid mess happeved over long-fucking-time. Labels for them most likely are from mother plants where seeds have been picked and they have been inbreed enough to be almost similar to each other from seed, different breeds is just separated by labels to groupds people are familiar with. I don't blame nurseries because they satisfy people, and most are willing to take cuttings back if buyer isn't happy with them. Private persons as vendors is different story. I still don't see cacti business have anykind of different model than any business where customer is happy and nursery makes money. Most nurseries suspicious about trich still have relatively good labeling system for example to lophophora and their locations. It's just they don't much all of them trust much the labeling system customers on their own demand to plants. If that doesn't tell anything, nothing will. When I speak hybridization process, I mean time frame of 3000years or more. In habitat seems to have certain countries have certain type of plants modern day in use of human. But in south america they don't much separate those ones they like from anothers. When EU continent has demand to spiky plants, they will find it and create label for you to make you happy. Slow process but it depends on demand what appearance cactus plants there are around like any business. I don't know how it works in Australia, but in EU trich clones change because of importing. And they import as well as cuttings and seedlings, south EU or south america is main areas small nurseries import clones so stock isn't empty. As well they clone own plants, but trichs need too much space to be able to stay on business by growing them only, especially whole north EU. They might full their stock of clones by get them from south europe where's good climate to grow them and sell them with profit to rich northern collectors. In EU nurseries are connected and they do bulk trade with another nursery in different country. Occasionally import big amount of cuttings and seedlings with cheap price from south america, those profits here is best profit to nursery. Even it's harder to import them because CITES and taxes. Inside EU they don't need to worry those but there are no cheap enough trichs for them to keep prices at some level, still high enough worth doing living from plant sale. Study the history of trich and habitat of them and try think taxonomy again is it fail-proof with trichocerei or not. Certain type trichs only I mean. I dare to say at some point taxnomy will change again, with trichs or another group of species. But only trichs have been know humans involved them long period of time. Before north america were found, before electrics, before plant studying, long time back to history. In another words, it's species with legs by another creature and creature have improve the odds of new genetics allow to survive, by sowing seeds and care them etc... And cuttings ofc originally should not be there without human planting them. And because they flower and there's pollinators, it's obvious new genetics spread, especially if human it self have make it possible majority of plants and seedlings in new area have change to make it and grow adult. It's even hard to imagine those plants what kind of they would be without any human help. Maybe as "monotonic" as other species have stayed on their own. Who knows.:lo: What comes to those people like to have for simple reason. There's shitloads of different forms and appearance of them. Same function for people like to have those. And do we separate them by people in their habitat does, or do we separate them by rules of taxonomy. Imo, trichs what humans like to grow and taxonomy is a bit tricky one compared to many other species of cactus plants. I just don't see good and solid accuracy with taxonomy and trichocereus as they are now.. At year 2015. But that number isn't correct as year counting. Depends where you are living. There is as well many different ways of count years based on location in this planet and religions. But it's not relevant to this. It's good you think critical, but you should check more than taxonomy and comparing pics from goole yor plant isn't gonna work much longer. You need to know climate those pics in google have taken to make it worth comparsion between two. And never compare seedling to mature section of plant. They are different. Even pup from base of column may not be similar to main columm or it may have more/less spikes etc. Some clones change more than others, based on environmental factors. Climate and environment with photoperiods and so on change all species a bit by appearance, not only trichs. And change may not be even so dramatical, depends on clone. I can grow basically blue skin, more or less, to all species almost. I just need to avoid not to spray the blue hue of skin away in order to do that. I could make up "Super blue this-and-that" and "forgot" to say person buying plant it's not genetics always. But I don't sell trichs at all and take money, only given few to my friends. I if I do sale of them it may turn illegal here anyway. So I don't want troubles to make few € of money since no need to live by selling plants. I like to grow them and collect those to see how they do here. ![]() ![]() In EU I would contact to specialized nursery and ask pachanoi's as size of cuttings about one foot or more. No need to doubt are they right ones. Those from seed may grow spineless or not. May have blue hue on skin or not. But still labeled as pachanoi as well and differs from two different kind of peruvianus label plants sold around. I'm pretty sure conversation around one clone in USA have made pachanoi's worst ones and reduced demand for them a bit and created demand of different label and looking trichs by people themselves. Should not forgot there's many continents, religions, states and areas where one's person words doesn't mean anything elsewhere or they are false. Depends much what is the topic. It just seems odd people in EU think pacahnoi is bad because of conversation they read from USA around one clone only. Take a piece of your time and relax your mind and don't worry much because no one can't know what you're gonna have exacly. Only hypothesis and quesses based on many things, it depends as well person who give ID to you what person itself know and what doesn't. If you don't trust the source, don't bother your mind with it. Or don't buy them. Find trusted source so you can trust labels even a bit... Those spiky pachanoi's for example, they do not seems any of them similar to spiky peruvianus label ones later on when you start to notice the difference of bigger columns. Same labeled remind each another and different labeled have their own certain types similar inside one label. But I just can say I really don't know how much hybridization and hybrids goes for sale as labeled like people want. Because I know I can't know it. I know it's plausible to do so. If your nursery respond the source of plants you buy because you can ask it where they are from etc, just trust it if they seem to you they are what should be, if you suspect nor nursery don't respond to question it may be anything. One nursery respond to me; "It doesn't matter much with seedlings, they are all hybridized anyway before we have been there, but they are those you may want to cultivate no matter what" ..wasn't wrong on that nor haven't been. But try ID only to adults. Seedling ID isn't reasonable imo. Because most of them look like another long time, as older they don't since whole growth style typically changes as they reach point they grow fastest and bigger. To get fast grow, you need big plant first. It may be just my conspiracy theory but they may indeed label plants as people demand to make money. If you demand certain type of plant, not label itself, seems business go smoothly and nice. I am not claim nurseries are bad ones but they know who is customer don't care or know much and who does and build reputation to all customers to make them buy more later, because that's they do for living, satisfying customers. But what is good source to one, may be bad to another if another don't understand to make sure what these plants may be and may not. Years ago I've had bridgesii AND peruvianus as cuzco-looking cuttings. But I returned them because I said they are not I asked, got pachanoi's replaced when I give them back. ..so they try randomly "fool" people or if they sell it to people without interest of certain thing in plant But labeling of trichs may be just because they do what customer want and may try do they find out. Customer will not complain and reputation is good for both customer groups. That's happened in EU anyway. I can't speak for other continents and how business goes elsewhere. But that's only bad experience about wrong labeled plants, two same clones labeled differently as I asked by label and bought first time from that nursery. Most of time they are good and honest to keep not spread bad reputation among collectors buying the plants. It's obvious there are two different strains both goes as peruvianus. I mean cuzco-like one and then the "real ones" like many say. I just know enough I don't know shit about whole system and what these vendors don't want to say. And all know non-labeled plants wont sell. So easy it is to make them sell by labeling them. Even they don't believe those labels themselves but they know without them they can't sell them because people wont buy them, even they are same plants, label or not. I speak generally about trichs only. Otherwise labeling is nice but with trichs it may be questionable, especially if you don't know dudes in nursery and they don't know you at all. Otherwords, if you ask something, they not gonna say "we don't have it" ..they will make them you want to buy by labeling them as you want. You can't know it, unless you question the nursery itself. Most nurseries are very good here, but I've experienced my self wrong labeling anything else than pachanoi's as cuttings. Managed to get bridgesii from other nursery as right labeled as well, but most of times peruvianus is label goes to two different appearance plants in nurseries and few people they tell what's "real" and what isn't. Most just think about torch as big spikes and they look like "torch" as they grow so those cuzco-looking plants is easy to label it. Because people assume it's peruvianus because of big spikes and form of torch appearance at grow season. Nurseries have their regular customers and then random ones.. Peruvianus label today seems to be in several plants, those black-dark spines "real" ones and then "not real" ones. It's said by dudes in nursery itself; there are two plants with same label sold and no complains. Depends do people want torch they think is the right one. Because if they have "real" torch and they imagine torch should be like cuzco's, they get mad about wrong plant. It's not so simple as person buying the plants but atleast if you are not satisfied, just in case, buy from nursery allow you to return plant as condition as it is to get one you want. Private vendors may not give refunds much. It depends much about private vendor itself. I've had rotten cactus from private person from auction site. It was in sealed packed, full wet soil and cactus was black mush. So nurseries is easier(and safer) because of refund policy in EU. Even they might sell wrong labeled plants. But atleasy they can be send back if I want to.Sorry long post, hard to fit all to one sentence. Text is still as short/shorter as one page of book. ![]() Just figure out yourself by get to know nurserie to get plants you want. In EU they still don't want to ruin own reputation spread around internet. I can say those becuse you don't know what is the nursery and where in EU I said those. And I don't say how manu nurseries, small or big ones, I've been bought seeds or plants or both. Recent times I haven't bought any plants tho.. Enough of that anyway, It's "public secret" everyone know there's one label to two "peruvianus" from EU nurseries. And depends what nursery but there's more than one in business satisfy demand of imagination of plants customer think what it should look. So everyone is happy. Not all are after those certain ones so they are ok with label they have as long as plant look like they have imagined it should look. Those after "right ones" will gonna know what to buy, even nurseries don't tell it because they wont talk about certain things of plant. I've heard only idiots buy plants and complain later on because it wasn't the one they wanted. And ofc plant is gone by customer so no refund. Those are pain in the ass for nurseries in that sense, because they are ornaments all. Reasonable person ask refund if they are not ok with the deal happens via parcels and mail...
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Stranger Registered: 07/25/14 Posts: 879 Last seen: 1 year, 5 months |
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That's one hell of a post lol
These guys were sold to me as panachanoi but I think they look more like some sort of Peruvianus. It's no big deal, I just thought it was a bit odd.
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Noaidi Registered: 10/18/10 Posts: 2,627 Loc: EU Last seen: 7 years, 4 months |
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Pachanoi's should look a bit different, here EU as seedlings. They might be from seeds picked from pachanoi and noone know the father of seedlings. Hard to tell anything from here about them.
These are from one nursery labeled to t. pachanoi. Older pics. Whole cluster of pachanoi label seedlings from EU nursery. I've used to see pachanoi seedlings like pics. They will turn spine growth eventually when they gey older, some have spikes as older, some have very small spikes as adult. They change anyways when they are grown big enough under good light. Plant pics from same plant, tip and base, adult section and base of it is different, grown from seed. Label was t. pachanoi KK339 Another from seed have more space between aeroles and only 1 central spike approx 1-2cm as adult. Base is similar with both seed grown ones. Edited by intelligentlife (07/23/15 08:33 AM)
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