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DividedQuantum
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: Roker]
#21410539 - 03/15/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Roker said: zero of the principles put forward by modern physicists and astrophysicists are used by engineers. Ohms law, Maxwell's equation, newtons law are all old and proven equations. Einstein's last 23 years of tenure were remarkable for the fact that he didn't publish anything. He spent his time trying to make his theory of relativity relate to the real world and... it didn't. That's why they had to make up dark matter and black holes because the theories don't work without them and even with them they don't work very well. physics has been led up a blind ally and until they back track like Stephen Hawking real progress will remained stalled. The problem with theoreticians vs engineers is that an engineer will abandon an approach that doesn't work whereas a theoretician will just keep plastering over the cracks and pretend the failure is with person who can't understand the equation.
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He spent his time trying to make his theory of relativity relate to the real world and... it didn't.
Wrong. Relativity has always very much applied to the real world. He spent his time trying to get the field equations of general relativity to merge with those of quantum theory. Or rather, he tried to explain quantum theory (electromagnetism) in the way that he explained gravitation. Relativity as it is is a spectacularly successful theory, with many experimental confirmations. This is plainly fact.
You do indeed have a point that much of modern theoretical physics is "head-in-the-clouds," ivory-tower type stuff. But there is a lot they do know -- modern cosmology has made many discoveries, even if it can't seem to sort out some of the larger questions.
Please stop attacking a field that you obviously don't know enough about to do so, and that you clearly have emotional disagreements with, rather than specifically and purely scientific ones.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
Edited by DividedQuantum (03/15/15 09:10 AM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: Hobozen]
#21410553 - 03/15/15 09:06 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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blankk said: If we are in the event horizon of a 4D universe's black hole, wouldn't the stretching of time and space give the appearance of an expanding universe?
Good question blankk, that is one possibility. A good one. And I would point out to Roker that this theory has generated testable predictions, will probably advance our understanding of science regardless of what happens, and is fun.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Yukon Cornelius
Bumble Wrangler



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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21410965 - 03/15/15 11:11 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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blankk said: I like this one
Quote:
"New research from theoretical physicists at the Perimeter Institute proposes that our universe may have emerged from a black hole in a higher-dimensional universe.
The big bang poses a big question: if it was indeed the cataclysm that blasted our universe into existence 13.7 billion years ago, what sparked it?
Three Perimeter Institute researchers have a new idea about what might have come before the big bang. It’s a bit perplexing, but it is grounded in sound mathematics, testable, and enticing enough to earn the cover story in Scientific American, called “The Black Hole at the Beginning of Time.”
What we perceive as the big bang, they argue, could be the three-dimensional “mirage” of a collapsing star in a universe profoundly different than our own.
“Cosmology’s greatest challenge is understanding the big bang itself,” write Perimeter Institute Associate Faculty member Niayesh Afshordi, Affiliate Faculty member and University of Waterloo professor Robert Mann, and PhD student Razieh Pourhasan.
Conventional understanding holds that the big bang began with a singularity – an unfathomably hot and dense phenomenon of spacetime where the standard laws of physics break down. Singularities are bizarre, and our understanding of them is limited.
“For all physicists know, dragons could have come flying out of the singularity,” Afshordi says in an interview with Nature.
The problem, as the authors see it, is that the big bang hypothesis has our relatively comprehensible, uniform, and predictable universe arising from the physics-destroying insanity of a singularity. It seems unlikely.
So perhaps something else happened. Perhaps our universe was never singular in the first place.
Their suggestion: our known universe could be the three-dimensional “wrapping” around a four-dimensional black hole’s event horizon. In this scenario, our universe burst into being when a star in a four-dimensional universe collapsed into a black hole.
In our three-dimensional universe, black holes have two-dimensional event horizons – that is, they are surrounded by a two-dimensional boundary that marks the “point of no return.” In the case of a four-dimensional universe, a black hole would have a three-dimensional event horizon.
In their proposed scenario, our universe was never inside the singularity; rather, it came into being outside an event horizon, protected from the singularity. It originated as – and remains – just one feature in the imploded wreck of a four-dimensional star.
The researchers emphasize that this idea, though it may sound “absurd,” is grounded firmly in the best modern mathematics describing space and time. Specifically, they’ve used the tools of holography to “turn the big bang into a cosmic mirage.” Along the way, their model appears to address long-standing cosmological puzzles and – crucially – produce testable predictions.
Of course, our intuition tends to recoil at the idea that everything and everyone we know emerged from the event horizon of a single four-dimensional black hole. We have no concept of what a four-dimensional universe might look like. We don’t know how a four-dimensional “parent” universe itself came to be.
But our fallible human intuitions, the researchers argue, evolved in a three-dimensional world that may only reveal shadows of reality.
They draw a parallel to Plato’s allegory of the cave, in which prisoners spend their lives seeing only the flickering shadows cast by a fire on a cavern wall.
“Their shackles have prevented them from perceiving the true world, a realm with one additional dimension,” they write. “Plato’s prisoners didn’t understand the powers behind the sun, just as we don’t understand the four-dimensional bulk universe. But at least they knew where to look for answers.”
http://scitechdaily.com/universe-may-emerged-black-hole-higher-dimensional-universe/
I'm leary of this theory, I think there is a misappropriation of what constitutes 4D and how that relates to our universe.
All the concievable dimensions exist within our own universe, so why would we all of the sudden designate the 4th as being the all powerful mediator of 3D?
Once someone draws the plato's cave allegory, it goes into the realm of "the evidence of absence is not the absence of evidence".
We could shoot off ideas about what we don't know about our universe all day, but they hold no water until we actual know it.
We can't make further speculation from what we don't know to what we actually know in that fashion.
It's like saying " I don't know how to ride a bicycle, so I must be able to ride it with my knees!"
My impression could be flawed, did not read the whole paper, so their might be some subtleties I missed.
"We are forever searching for the light beyond the mouth of our cave"
-------------------- "I didn't know chicken's wore suspenders" - Towelie
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Hobozen


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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: Yukon Cornelius] 1
#21411630 - 03/15/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have no idea
I think it could be useful for Scientists to speculate about, and see if their Science and math fits into it. How do we get anywhere without experimenting with new ideas?
Edited by Hobozen (03/15/15 02:08 PM)
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zzripz
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: Hobozen]
#21412156 - 03/15/15 04:37 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of course, our intuition tends to recoil at the idea that everything and everyone we know emerged from the event horizon of a single four-dimensional black hole. We have no concept of what a four-dimensional universe might look like. We don’t know how a four-dimensional “parent” universe itself came to be.
But our fallible human intuitions, the researchers argue, evolved in a three-dimensional world that may only reveal shadows of reality.
They draw a parallel to Plato’s allegory of the cave, in which prisoners spend their lives seeing only the flickering shadows cast by a fire on a cavern wall.
“Their shackles have prevented them from perceiving the true world, a realm with one additional dimension,” they write. “Plato’s prisoners didn’t understand the powers behind the sun, just as we don’t understand the four-dimensional bulk universe. But at least they knew where to look for answers.”
This is of course a myth and the myth tellers are the ones who have a technological capacity that other generally do not have. Same was so in the past with those that had the access to the technology of writing and reading other generally didn't have, and so they could spin myths that others felt they could not contradict because they felt disempowered
Actually these scientists don't even know how they observe so-called 3D reality. That is a mystery. Yet pontificate that this reality is shadows of a 'higher reality'--as SOON as I read that I know what was coming next---old PLATO! Him and his bleedin cave theory What they are --maybe unconsciously doing--is maintaining their prestige and power by suggesting only they are closest to the truth and we are the 'prisoners'. Only THEY are closer to knowing 'the powers behind the sun' because they know mathematics?
I would suggest they read this which totally exposes the Plato Cave allegory for the patriarchal theory it is Reading Plato’s Allegory of the Cave as Matricide and Theacide by Carol P. Christ
Summarized what the author is saying is that patriarchal dualistic thinking tries to divide and control via the implanting of ideas/theories/myths/beliefs which have you doubting your direct vital sensual phenomenological interrelationship between your own being and others and the natural world
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Hobozen


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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: zzripz]
#21412283 - 03/15/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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How do you know they aren't legitimately interested in their work? I don't think it's as big a conspiracy as you make it out to be, nothing they said gives me the impression that they think they are closest to the truth.
"which have you doubting your direct vital sensual phenomenological interrelationship between your own being and others and the natural world"
Unless you go about it with some skepticism. You seem to take this stuff a little too seriously.
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zzripz
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: Hobozen]
#21412810 - 03/15/15 07:07 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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you HAVE to though you must also nurture a sense of humour. When on psychedelics you can be BOTH deeply serious and giggling like a fool all at the same time
Myths coming from 'the authority'--in this age which is Science can very well influence how you experience reality. All I do is encourage questioning. They are questioning and so am I. I question stuff they may not be aware of
We ALL have that power to question. you don't have to be a professor of mathematics or a physicist or a neuroscientist etc
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Yukon Cornelius
Bumble Wrangler



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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: zzripz]
#21412890 - 03/15/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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zzripz said: We ALL have that power to question. you don't have to be a professor of mathematics or a physicist or a neuroscientist etc
Right you are on that one, smart people don't have answers they just articulate their questions more eloquently.
-------------------- "I didn't know chicken's wore suspenders" - Towelie
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
#21412925 - 03/15/15 07:29 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yukon Cornelius said: Right you are on that one, smart people don't have answers they just articulate their questions more eloquently.
Very well said.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Hobozen


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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21413578 - 03/15/15 10:03 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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zzripz said: you HAVE to though you must also nurture a sense of humour. When on psychedelics you can be BOTH deeply serious and giggling like a fool all at the same time
Myths coming from 'the authority'--in this age which is Science can very well influence how you experience reality. All I do is encourage questioning. They are questioning and so am I. I question stuff they may not be aware of
We ALL have that power to question. you don't have to be a professor of mathematics or a physicist or a neuroscientist etc
i don't disagree with most of what you say... yes we're all human, with human ideas. we're all questioning here, i don't see anyone pretending to have a more superior understanding.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21449481 - 03/23/15 11:57 PM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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The Steady State hypothesis has been around since before the Big Bang hypothesis. Alternately, there is the Hindu cosmology of an Oscillating Universe which expands and collapses back to a singularity indefinitely. I rather like to think the biblical "Fiat Lux" is an intuitive and mythic expression of the event that took place at 10 to the -43 seconds ago, prior to which there was no space-time, just the Mystery of Unmanifest Reality that Kabbalism says contracted Itself to form an infinitesimal 'vacuole' in the Infinite Being of God. Into that vacuole, the Tsim Tsum, all of the Pure Ideas (Platonic Forms) were contained like the DNA in a seed. This 'seed' burst forth from zero dimension, emanating 'rays' and hence extension and duration simultaneously, space-time was born, and evolved, manifesting waves, then particles, atoms, molecules, stars, planets, organics...The Great Chain of Being.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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laughingdog
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#21472060 - 03/28/15 09:55 PM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Is the big bang a chauvanistic orgasam theory or a sneaky return to Christian cosmology?
Only those popular individuals in the 'incrowd' know the true ultimate very important answer!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: laughingdog]
#21481855 - 03/31/15 12:46 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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laughingdog said: Is the big bang a chauvanistic orgasam theory or a sneaky return to Christian cosmology?
Only those popular individuals in the 'incrowd' know the true ultimate very important answer!
It seems that the bibical Genesis account of an abrupt divine "Fiat Lux!" is an anthropomorphization, mythically and Intuitively expressed. The scientific expression of 10 to the -43 seconds ago event is a Thinking function's arrival at the exact same phenomenon. I am using Intuition and Thinking as two of the functions recognized in Jungian Psychology, which is applied to the MBTI's personality categories. Females orgasm and sometime squirt also. The Aramaic name for God, 'Abwoon,' means "Cosmic Mother-Father" or "Cosmic Birther."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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2sky
a friend of Narnia

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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: Roker]
#21487626 - 04/01/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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quote:
"And the Big Bang was a flight of fancy from a Jesuit priest that was ridiculed for decades."
...
There is no such 'thing' as an infinitely small point - it's just another way of saying: no'thing'
The Greeks gave us geometry starting with the point and the atom, but the Arabs gave us zero.
The fraction " 1/infinity " is infinitely small, an it is the same as dividing by infinity, and it equals zero. And there is nothing wrong with that - it's just a simple math concept.
It's the infinite mass density in no space where the "laws of physics" and the last bit of our sanity break down.
Edited by 2sky (04/01/15 12:37 PM)
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2sky
a friend of Narnia

Registered: 08/08/07
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: 2sky]
#21974100 - 07/21/15 03:10 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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2sky said: quote:
.
The fraction " 1/infinity " is infinitely small, and it is the same as dividing by infinity, and it equals zero.
.
this gives you two choices -
either the universe is infinite and you don't exist
or the universe is finite and you do exist
...
maha.mudra is beyond all words and symbols but for you, Niropa, ernest and loyal this much be said
the Void encompass all yet it rests on naught
- from Tilopa's song of maha.mudra - a thousand years ago
...
and this would be like the next expansion of the old drawing of the shepard on his hands knees, sticking his head into the cosmos
...
but there is more - there is always more
...
long ago two young boys were walking down the street when two sailors came out of a doorway and one said: That's the best five dollar's worth I've ever had. And the other said: Yeah! And the two boys looked at each other, and one of them went up to the door and rang the bell, and when a woman came to the door, he looked up at her and said: I'd like a nickel's worth please. So she lifted her dress and rubbed her crotch and held her finger under his nose. And later the other boy asked him: How was it? and he said: Whew! I don't think I could have stood a dime's worth.
-------------------- To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968 But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,252
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21974158 - 07/21/15 04:04 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Black holes are also considered to be singularities but they are still existing in space time. How can something with no space exist? Clearly there's not a hard line between space time and the reality that exists outside of it. The creation of the universe in it's current form could be much the same. It could have began as a singularity without it being a true beginning. This seems more likely when one considers the occurrence of space time to be a product of energetic entanglement. There's doesn't need to be a big crunch. Energy naturally looses it's entanglement over time and when that relationship is exhausted that energy would appear to disappear from the universe. But if the universe is more than the confinement of space time then the energy is still there unseen. Whether that energy still has some effect I don't know but it makes sense that if at some point it is reintroduced into physical space it would need to come from a singularity since it wasn't there physically to begin with.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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circastes
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Re: Did the Big Bang really happen? Or is the universe infinitely old? [Re: Rahz]
#21974167 - 07/21/15 04:10 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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This universe is the strangest thing. We're still at the tip of the iceberg with science. The truth will turn out completely counter-intuitive. It having no beginning or end, will be the least of our confoundment.
Never stop stepping outside at night and wondering under the stars my comrades!
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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