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Invisible404
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Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries
    #21962928 - 07/18/15 11:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

this is unconstitutional as fuck and goes against the very basis of what our country was founded upon. smaller government is needed, not larger...

http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/la-na-gun-law-20150718-story.html#page=2
Quote:

Obama pushes to extend gun background checks to Social Security



Seeking tighter controls over firearm purchases, the Obama administration is pushing to ban Social Security beneficiaries from owning guns if they lack the mental capacity to manage their own affairs, a move that could affect millions whose monthly disability payments are handled by others.

The push is intended to bring the Social Security Administration in line with laws regulating who gets reported to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, which is used to prevent gun sales to felons, drug addicts, immigrants in the country illegally and others.

A potentially large group within Social Security are people who, in the language of federal gun laws, are unable to manage their own affairs due to "marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease."

There is no simple way to identify that group, but a strategy used by the Department of Veterans Affairs since the creation of the background check system is reporting anyone who has been declared incompetent to manage pension or disability payments and assigned a fiduciary.

If Social Security, which has never participated in the background check system, uses the same standard as the VA, millions of its beneficiaries would be affected. About 4.2 million adults receive monthly benefits that are managed by "representative payees."

The move is part of a concerted effort by the Obama administration after the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Conn., to strengthen gun control, including by plugging holes in the background check system.

But critics — including gun rights activists, mental health experts and advocates for the disabled — say that expanding the list of prohibited gun owners based on financial competence is wrongheaded.


Though such a ban would keep at least some people who pose a danger to themselves or others from owning guns, the strategy undoubtedly would also include numerous people who may just have a bad memory or difficulty balancing a checkbook, the critics argue.

"Someone can be incapable of managing their funds but not be dangerous, violent or unsafe," said Dr. Marc Rosen, a Yale psychiatrist who has studied how veterans with mental health problems manage their money. "They are very different determinations."

Steven Overman, a 30-year-old former Marine who lives in Virginia, said his case demonstrates the flaws of judging gun safety through financial competence.

After his Humvee hit a roadside bomb in Iraq in 2007, he was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder and a brain injury that weakened his memory and cognitive ability.

The VA eventually deemed him 100% disabled and after reviewing his case in 2012 declared him incompetent, making his wife his fiduciary.
State police lead students from Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn., after a shooting. The Dec. 14, 2012, shooting at the school left 26 people, including 20 children, dead. (Shannon Hicks / Newtown Bee)

Upon being notified that he was being reported to the background check system, he gave his guns to his mother and began working with a lawyer to get them back.

Overman grew up hunting in Wisconsin. After his return from Iraq, he found solace in target shooting. "It's relaxing to me," he said. "It's a break from day-to-day life. It calms me down."

Though his wife had managed their financial affairs since his deployment, Overman said he has never felt like he was a danger to himself or others.

"I didn't know the VA could take away your guns," he said.

The background check system was created in 1993 by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, named after White House Press Secretary James Brady, who was partially paralyzed after being shot in the 1981 assassination attempt on President Reagan.

The law requires gun stores to run the names of prospective buyers through the computerized system before every sale.

The system's databases contain more than 13 million records, which include the names of felons, immigrants in the U.S. illegally, fugitives, dishonorably discharged service members, drug addicts and domestic abusers.

State agencies, local police and federal agencies are required to enter names into the databases, but the system has been hampered by loopholes and inconsistent reporting since its launch.

The shortcomings became clear in the wake of the 2007 Virginia Tech shooting, in which Seung-Hui Cho killed 32 people. Cho had been declared mentally ill by a court and ordered to undergo outpatient treatment, but at the time the law did not require that he be added to the databases.

Congress expanded the reporting requirements, but Social Security determined it was not required to submit records, according to LaVenia LaVelle, an agency spokeswoman.
Someone can be incapable of managing their funds but not be dangerous, violent or unsafe. They are very different determinations. - Dr. Marc Rosen, Yale psychiatrist

After 20-year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, 20 children and six school staffers in Newtown in 2012, President Obama vowed to make gun control a central issue of his second term.

The effort fell flat. Congress ultimately rejected his proposals for new gun control legislation.

But among 23 executive orders on the issue was one to the Department of Justice to ensure that federal agencies were complying with the existing law on reporting to the background check system.

One baseline for other agencies is the VA, which has been entering names into the system since the beginning. About 177,000 veterans and survivors of veterans are in the system, according to VA figures.

The VA reports names under a category in gun control regulations known as "adjudicated as a mental defective," terminology that derives from decades-old laws. Its only criterion is whether somebody has been appointed a fiduciary.

More than half of the names on the VA list are of people 80 or older, often suffering from dementia, a reasonable criterion for prohibiting gun ownership.

But the category also includes anybody found by a "court, board, commission or other lawful authority" to be lacking "the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs" for a wide variety of reasons.

The agency's efforts have been criticized by a variety of groups.

Rosen, the Yale psychiatrist, said some veterans may avoid seeking help for mental health problems out of fear that they would be required to give up their guns.

Conservative groups have denounced the policy as an excuse to strip veterans of their gun rights.

Republicans have introduced legislation in the last several sessions of Congress to change the policy. The Veterans Second Amendment Protection Act, now under consideration in the House, would require a court to determine that somebody poses a danger before being reported to the background check system.

Social Security would generally report names under the same "mental defective" category. The agency is still figuring out how that definition should be applied, LaVelle said.

About 2.7 million people are now receiving disability payments from Social Security for mental health problems, a potentially higher risk category for gun ownership. An addition 1.5 million have their finances handled by others for a variety of reasons.

The agency has been drafting its policy outside of public view. Even the National Rifle Assn. was unaware of it.


Told about the initiative, the NRA issued a statement from its chief lobbyist, Chris W. Cox, saying: "If the Obama administration attempts to deny millions of law-abiding citizens their constitutional rights by executive fiat, the NRA stands ready to pursue all available avenues to stop them in their tracks."

Gun rights advocates are unlikely to be the only opponents.

Ari Ne'eman, a member of the National Council on Disability, said the independent federal agency would oppose any policy that used assignment of a representative payee as a basis to take any fundamental right from people with disabilities.

"The rep payee is an extraordinarily broad brush," he said.

Since 2008, VA beneficiaries have been able to get off the list by filing an appeal and demonstrating that they pose no danger to themselves or others.

But as of April, just nine of 298 appeals have been granted, according to data provided by the VA. Thirteen others were pending, and 44 were withdrawn after the VA overturned its determination of financial incompetence.

Overman is one of the few who decided to appeal.

He is irritable and antisocial, he said, but not dangerous. "I've never been suicidal," he said. "To me that solves nothing."

More than a year and a half after Overman filed his challenge, the VA lifted its incompetence ruling, allowing his removal from the background check system before the VA ever had to determine whether he should be trusted with a gun.

Overman, who hasn't worked since leaving the military, said he and a friend are now thinking of opening a gunsmith business.

alan.zarembo@latimes.com




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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: 404]
    #21962949 - 07/18/15 11:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

if you pay in, they should pay out period, no matter what your background looks like.  If your background is so bad, you'd be in jail or prison anyway, or unable to go cash the fucking SS checks/make withdrawls in the first place

i wonder what happens to the money when someone fails the background check, does it go directly to obama's bank account?


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #21962954 - 07/18/15 11:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

freedom?

"money freedom".


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #21962963 - 07/18/15 11:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Did you even bother to read the article? This has NOTHING to do with SS paying someone what they're owed.

I agree certain people shouldn't own guns, but we're no longer stopping at those certain people. Before we know it, to legally own a gun you're going to have to pay 100 grand in insurance, have a career that puts you in first class status, never have been caught, even as a kid, using drugs or committing any crime, pass a proficiency test and a full on psychological screening, and just basically creating law after law until virtually no one fits criteria to own them.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


Edited by Shroomslip (07/18/15 11:52 PM)


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21962966 - 07/18/15 11:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

text was too blocky to read, so i gave up when i seen the big square line around it all:shrug:

care to save everyone 20 minutes of their time by providing the cliff notes?


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Edited by makaveli8x8 (07/18/15 11:50 PM)


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Invisible404
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21962971 - 07/18/15 11:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The push is intended to bring the Social Security Administration in line with laws regulating who gets reported to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, which is used to prevent gun sales to felons, drug addicts, immigrants in the country illegally and others.

A potentially large group within Social Security are people who, in the language of federal gun laws, are unable to manage their own affairs due to "marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease."




who get's to decide how drug addict is defined?


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: 404]
    #21962978 - 07/18/15 11:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

ok so basically its saying anyone who isn't an illegal immigrant is going to get extra background checks?  isn't someone who already broke the law getting into the country, kind of a prime suspect


basically instead of doing extra gun background checks now they are going to just do everyone instead?


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Edited by makaveli8x8 (07/18/15 11:54 PM)


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #21962979 - 07/18/15 11:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
text was too blocky to read, so i gave up when i seen the big square line around it all:shrug:

care to save everyone 20 minutes of their time by providing the cliff notes?



Just read the first sentence of the article, that is basically the cliff notes.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Invisible404
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: 404]
    #21962980 - 07/18/15 11:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

if you haven't been working or whatever and paying social security or whatever, somehow you're not supposed to be able to own a gun?? doesn't make complete sense to me, though i understand why some might think that's OK


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: 404]
    #21962990 - 07/18/15 11:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

oh wow, taking guns away for not working :rofl: someones trying to start mass riots that won't end in peace like the other ones


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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Invisible404
error
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #21962998 - 07/18/15 11:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

who is 'someone' are you trying to insinuate that's me?

so because i've been out of work or am on disability or something of the like i'm not allowed a gun, even for hunting my own food? uh ok. you're right! it's a great idea. :faceplam:


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: 404]
    #21962999 - 07/18/15 11:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

404 said:
if you haven't been working or whatever and paying social security or whatever, somehow you're not supposed to be able to own a gun?? doesn't make complete sense to me, though i understand why some might think that's OK



I didn't see this mentioned in the article, perhaps I missed it. Can you quote that part?


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Posts: 21,636
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21963027 - 07/19/15 12:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

your cliffnote told me, first sentence, obama is the "someone"


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #21963030 - 07/19/15 12:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seeking tighter controls over firearm purchases, the Obama administration is pushing to ban Social Security beneficiaries from owning guns if they lack the mental capacity to manage their own affairs, a move that could affect millions whose monthly disability payments are handled by others.




Cliff notes.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Posts: 21,636
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21963033 - 07/19/15 12:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

yah so they will abuse it like everything gets abused, if you have anything at all show up on the background boom your guns are gone

then there are errors n shit that show up rarely but it happens, or they get someone with the same name as you, ect ect.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Registered: 07/28/10
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21963036 - 07/19/15 12:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You have to be like found incompentent or whatever why are people on ss disabilty buying guns neway


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #21963037 - 07/19/15 12:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
if you pay in, they should pay out period, no matter what your background looks like.  If your background is so bad, you'd be in jail or prison anyway, or unable to go cash the fucking SS checks/make withdrawls in the first place






this apparently wont deny them benefits, it will require the guns to be confiscated

the same thing koods kept saying wasnt going to happen


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Registered: 07/28/10
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21963042 - 07/19/15 12:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I doubt theyre siezing guns unless u willfully turn them in


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Invisible404
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21963044 - 07/19/15 12:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

maybe i misread something, i'm having trouble finding it as well.

anyway, this affects my family members, my grandfather was in vietnam, has ptsd and depression, he's also in no danger of doing anything rash but owns guns. :shrug:

why should he have to give up his second amendment rights?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obummer pushes for extended background checks to SS beneficiaries [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #21963051 - 07/19/15 12:09 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
You have to be like found incompentent or whatever why are people on ss disabilty buying guns neway





gun ownership, not buying new guns but it doesnt matter, SSI isnt like welfare, we
all pay into SSI so we all have a retirement fund when we no longer are able to
work, it's your money that you were forced to let the government handle for you
until you reached retirement age


why arent food stamp and welfare recipients being forced to take drug tests with a
fail meaning they can never collect again


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