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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Has choice doomed mankind?
    #2195417 - 12/22/03 12:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Has it?

Let's say for argument's sake that there is a creator. This creator
knowingly gave us free will and the ability to choose what we think,
believe in, and do. Has this doomed us? Severeal reasons it has
could be argued:

1. By giving Man the ability to choose, Man is able to direct
his attention towards anything he wants to. This includes sin
and material pleasure. When people focus on these things, they
do not focus on God. How could God have given Man such a monumental
responsibility when humans are so weak? How can we be expected to
consistently focus our attention on God if we have choice and our
minds are easily diverted?

2. By giving Man choice, God has allowed Man to act in whatever way
he may. This freedom of action by a multitude of beings more often
than not results in untold suffering for many people. Because we
have choice, we suffer.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2195434 - 12/22/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Do we suffer more now than animals do?
I don't think we do.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: Phluck]
    #2195485 - 12/22/03 01:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

>Do we suffer more now than animals do?
I don't think we do

I dont know about that, when was the last time you seen an animal burn someone to death or torture them for fun. I think humans can be more evil and commit more terrorfying acts than any other animal on the planet. Humans can be so F$%KING Evil Realy EVIL. Some times it can be scary you only have to watch T.V to know that. So I guess being human Could lead to more suffering than being an animal, unless your an animal being tortured by a human thats is.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


Edited by jezu (12/22/03 01:05 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: EvilGir]
    #2195504 - 12/22/03 01:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I've seen cats torture mice for fun, and forest fires often start naturally, burning millions of critters.

The question wasn't "Do animals make one another suffer?" it was "Do they suffer?".

They have no medicine, no guaranteed food or shelter. There are predators all around.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2195537 - 12/22/03 01:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

1. By giving Man the ability to choose, Man is able to direct
his attention towards anything he wants to. This includes sin
and material pleasure. When people focus on these things, they
do not focus on God. How could God have given Man such a monumental
responsibility when humans are so weak? How can we be expected to
consistently focus our attention on God if we have choice and our
minds are easily diverted?





This only becomes a problem for man when he forgets that God is everything, not some objectifiable character. Divinity is found in all things man might conceive of. Unless, of course, you follow some narrow belief system.


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2195665 - 12/22/03 02:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This is the base of faith for religions such as Catharism. What these religions say is that all matter and material is of the dense 3d world, and that if we ignore all material and matter (including our own bodies- no sex b/c it =more matter, no gluttonly, no wealth or material possessions) we will be more a being of spirit and soul. So possibly a creator puts us here, and lets us feel out/learn our own decision, and this world is just the "playground" for doing that.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2195707 - 12/22/03 03:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

If we didn't have choice, we'd be robots.




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Park Avenue Playground - The Trip



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: Viveka]
    #2195708 - 12/22/03 03:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


This only becomes a problem for man when he forgets that God is
everything, not some objectifiable character. Divinity is found in
all things man might conceive of. Unless, of course, you follow some
narrow belief system.


If we were intentionally created, then some kind of aware intelligence
was behind it. I think that qualifies as an objectifiable character.

Although I will add that humans can't even begin to comprehend how
the "creator" exists and operates.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2195714 - 12/22/03 03:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


If we didn't have choice, we'd be robots.


True. Safety is comfortable but boring. Freedom can be
exhilarating, but it brings about the possibility of pain, failure,
and suffering.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2195811 - 12/22/03 04:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

All life is suffering. Having choice and being cognizant of it should actually allieviate suffering because you can accept that your choices are responsible for your pain.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2195921 - 12/22/03 05:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
If we were intentionally created, then some kind of aware intelligence
was behind it. I think that qualifies as an objectifiable character.





What makes you think that qualifies?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2196287 - 12/22/03 07:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


it should actually allieviate suffering because you can accept that
your choices are responsible for your pain.


We are not always in control of what causes pain in our lives.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2196292 - 12/22/03 08:01 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


What makes you think that qualifies?


I don't know how to make it any plainer. If we were intentionally
created, that means some kind of intelligence exists which did the
creating. This intelligence can be classified as the "Creator". It
is a being or whatever that is conscious and has will.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2197188 - 12/23/03 06:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
I don't know how to make it any plainer.  If we were intentionally
created, that means some kind of intelligence exists which did the
creating.  This intelligence can be classified as the "Creator".  It
is a being or whatever that is conscious and has will.




Hehe, excuse me, I wasn't thinking clearly last night. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2197479 - 12/23/03 11:35 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)


Hehe, excuse me, I wasn't thinking clearly last night.
Peace.


No prob.
:smirk:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2197537 - 12/23/03 12:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Has it?

Let's say for argument's sake that there is a creator. This creator
knowingly gave us free will and the ability to choose what we think,
believe in, and do. Has this doomed us? Severeal reasons it has
could be argued:

1. By giving Man the ability to choose, Man is able to direct
his attention towards anything he wants to. This includes sin
and material pleasure. When people focus on these things, they
do not focus on God. How could God have given Man such a monumental
responsibility when humans are so weak? How can we be expected to
consistently focus our attention on God if we have choice and our
minds are easily diverted?



I have never been good at quoting bible passages, but somewhere it says that few will make it to heaven. That path is narrow, something like that. I don't think God was setting people up to fail, but being prescient, God knew that people would fail.

Quote:

2. By giving Man choice, God has allowed Man to act in whatever way he may. This freedom of action by a multitude of beings more often than not results in untold suffering for many people. Because we have choice, we suffer.



I don't think that the gift of free will is what doomed us. It's the choices we each make as individuals and, even at times as collectives, that doom us. We doom ourselves.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Registered: 09/13/02
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: Frog]
    #2197554 - 12/23/03 12:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

if all things are created by god, and god knows the way all things will turn out, than how can we say we have free will? its been proven that our personalities, our potential for development , our ability to function in society and feel love, depend hugely on enviromental conditions. If you are born to a raped 14 year old in south uganda during bloody civil war, you are likely to live a short violent life and either kill people or be killed. What chance do millions of children like this have of reaching heaven if the path is really as narrow as the bible would have us believe.

God if we believe in him as a concious omnipotent entity, created millions of souls into situations and enviroments in which if he is omniscient , he KNEW THEY WOULD FAIL, and then punished them to eternal torment without redemption.

I dont even want to get into the million plus reasons why this kind of world view/religion is not only rationally ludicrous but psychologically and socially harmfull. THe god of the old testament is a bogey man, propagandha for the masses of the past.
RElIGION IS ONLY DIEING BECAUSE TELEVISION WORKS BETTER


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2197798 - 12/23/03 02:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Would you like to take the red pill, or the blue pill ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: Frog]
    #2197820 - 12/23/03 03:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


I don't think that the gift of free will is what doomed us. It's the
choices we each make as individuals and, even at times as
collectives, that doom us. We doom ourselves.


Yes, we do doom ourselves. But, God has doomed us by giving us an
impossible task that we could never have hoped to accomplish.

What He asks of the human race is like asking a hamster to do
calculus.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Has choice doomed mankind? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2197829 - 12/23/03 03:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Yes, we do doom ourselves.  But, God has doomed us by giving us an
impossible task that we could never have hoped to accomplish.





What task is this? :grin: (if it is a dumb question that is overlooking something obvious once again, it is night again and I am really tired... ) hehe.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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