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Offlineunsui888
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Any evidence for chakra system?
    #21953029 - 07/16/15 05:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So in the past year, my skeptical mind has had quite a few life-shattering experiences with DMT. At the end of most my DMT trips, I would try to keep it going by doing nitrous. Without fail, almost everytime, I am presented with an image/hologram of either Siddhartha or just a neutral being with the chakras illuminated by each of their respective colors. Sometimes this being is in a sitting meditation position or just standing.

While I believe that there are energy centers in and throughout the body, I'm not sure I buy everything associated with chakras. I'm just curious if anyone has a good source of information that supports this notion of a chakra system?


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OfflineGoose
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: unsui888]
    #21953154 - 07/16/15 06:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_%28Chinese_medicine%29

http://taichicoloradosprings.com/1613/qigong-workshop-iii/

http://www.enkivillage.com/root-chakra.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara_%28tanden%29

the images in the links are what im going for. in qigong there are more vessels for storing energy.
in India there are the chakras
i can feel the energy centers in my own body.
ive also had a white pulesing light in my 3rd eye
in japan they refer to the hara and ki


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Offlineunsui888
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Goose]
    #21953223 - 07/16/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the links, but I was looking for actual evidence... 

For example, one of the links mentions: Red color brings balance and energy to the root chakra. Other things which can be tried are wearing red clothes, eating red colored foods and even painting the toe nails red. --> is there any evidence that supports this idea?


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

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Onlinedeff
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: unsui888]
    #21953282 - 07/16/15 06:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

the evidence that i'm aware of is limited to personal experiences that people have. some people claim they are able to see the chakra system whereas others are more able to feel the chakras. i've felt energetic sensations at some chakra locations before (for a while during meditation i would have a throbbing energetic pressure in my third eye and crown areas for example). this is not strong evidence to convince someone else, but as is usually the case with spiritual subjects it's more a case requiring personal investigation and holding provisional spiritual beliefs as you engage in spiritual practice. in a case where you're not able to feel or sense the chakras yourself, you might find enough testimony from people you trust to begin to believe that it's very possible/likely that chakras are real phenomena :smile:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: unsui888]
    #21953309 - 07/16/15 06:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The only evidence you'll find is anecdotal.  As deff said, it is purely a matter of personal experience.  In some rather abstract way I'm reminded of the J.P. Morgan line:  "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21953353 - 07/16/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
The only evidence you'll find is anecdotal.  As deff said, it is purely a matter of personal experience.  In some rather abstract way I'm reminded of the J.P. Morgan line:  "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."





Exactly, this type of knowledge comes together through a collaboration of people sharing their their inner experiences.

It's actually not all that different from western scientific knowledge which comes together through a collaboration of outer experiences.

Now you might assume that its a lot easier to verify outer knowledge gained through scientific instruments but when you read a science book, do you perform every experiment yourself to make sure your experience agrees with the scientists or do you accept it on faith that the scientists did not fake their data or fudge the numbers? Most people accept scientific knowledge on faith.

So spiritual knowledge is no different. You either accept it on faith or you look yourself and see whether it makes sense to describe the human being in terms of energy centers called chakras. It seems like your experiences have led you in that direction. What more do you want? A affidavit signed by God saying its correct?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: unsui888]
    #21958889 - 07/18/15 12:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17658844/Handbook-to-Higher-Consciousness-Ken-Keyes-Jr#scribd

Pages 56-74 will provide you with a simplified, yet very practical overview of the Hindu chakra system. The Tibetan Buddhist system as explicated by Lama Anagarika Govinda in Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism combines the lowest two and highest two center, giving five centers (but this text is not for newbies to the model). The Hopi Indians of North America use a 4 center system. The Taoists' system focuses more on the dynamic circulation of energies than the static aspects that the Hindu Tantric Yoga does, and Tibet, geographically between India and China combines both emphases.

I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the motivations connected to the psychic centers (chakras), and described at length how specific Western psychological theorists' motives were represented by the Indian and Tibetan models thereby illustrating that the theories were not in disagreement, they simply had to be seen as a hierarchy. Now, if you only see the chakras as energy vortices in the subtle body as much of the Hindu and 19th century occultism (e.g., C.W. Leadbeater) describes, then I cannot be of any help. Those perceptions are alleged to be the province of clairvoyants. But, the chakra motives CAN be understood psychospiritually. Ken Keyes does a good job of suggesting some of these psychological motives from the psychophysical  to the psychospiritual to the psychocosmic levels.


 



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Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/18/15 08:34 PM)


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21961299 - 07/18/15 04:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17658844/Handbook-to-Higher-Consciousness-Ken-Keyes-Jr#scribd

Pages 56-74 will provide you with a simplified, yet very practical overview of the Hindu chakra system. The Tibetan Buddhist system as explicated by Lama Anagarika Govinda in Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism combines the lowest two and highest two center, giving five center (but this text is not for newbies to the model). The Hopi Indians of North America use a 4 center system. The Taoists' system focuses more on the dynamic circulation of energies than the static aspects that the Hindu Tantric Yoga does, and Tibet, geographically between India and China combines both emphases.

I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the motivations connected to the psychic centers (chakras), and described at length how specific Western psychological theorists' motives were represented by the Indian and Tibetan  models thereby illustrating that the theories were not in disagreement, they simply had to be seen as a hierarchy. Now, if you only see the chakras as energy vortices in the subtle body as much of the Hindu and 19th century occultism (e.g., C.W. Leadbeater) describes, then I cannot be of any help. Those perceptions are alleged to be the province of clairvoyants. But, the chakra motives CAN be understood psychospiritually. Ken Keyes does a good job of suggesting some of these psychological motives from the psychophysical  to the psychospiritual to the psychocosmic levels.


 





Very informative!

Thanks mate

Also to the OP; does nitrous have any true capacity for spiritual insight? Ur OP seems to imply that. Personally I just felt really fucked. Nothing special or specifically "mind opening"


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: topdog82]
    #21961310 - 07/18/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Also; if u simply open up a neuroanatomy textbook, and hold up the human body chart next to the "chakra" system, you will find that the chakra's in auyurveda are placed exafctly in places where there are "bundles" of nerves and where those nerves split off


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: topdog82]
    #21962300 - 07/18/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:cheers: topdog82


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21965063 - 07/19/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What would consist in evidence, seems to be an experience in the senses, that is somehow laid to bear.

I think aside from say, ultimate goals of launching rockets into the stratosphere, or developing the latest consumer technology, this same collective conjecture which lays to bear evidence (something "there") may verge into phenomenological considerations.

What would consist in a phenomenon of a chakra? Consider what background that would be. I agree that the "evidence" seems to be anecdotal, and that is maybe to say one thing, or maybe that they are found within the stream of the senses.

Yogic epistemology would possibly relate to describing such a phenomenon:

Pramāna, the yogic equivalent of epistemology or "right knowledge" is itself a vrtti, a "changing state" of mind or "fluctuation" of mind. The overall goal of yoga is to still these vrttis in a overall pragmatic way, even though pramāna or such arisings in general may not be "detrimental" vrttis.

I remember from my experience in American yoga studios, that bringing up these notion of chakras, is considered relatively esoteric. What I heard, as advice, was the traditional "just watch what arises", in the flow. No guru for me, and maybe it was a good thing in the end.

You could maybe call this confabulation of anecdotes, like snapshots - basically finding a static points of peoples personal experiences and bringing them to a place of common conjecture, and indeed upon the common places they meet upon in the physical body. Chakras are incredibly interesting this way.

In my experience, you'd best always follow your own personal experience that dips into these things, at which points it actually does. That vision may be very significant who knows, but you? You'll go through wanting things to happen and wanting to share these things, but keep in mind what would be possible to lay bear. You can't evaluate someone else's subjective experience; either positively or negatively you can only evaluate your own this way. Those phenomenal evaluations are possible though. Maybe sometimes life is not about finding a common consensus on some phenomena, (positive or negative), but sometimes it is about finding the common stream and learning to go with it. It's possible to be level headed and open minded at the same time.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Kurt]
    #21965645 - 07/19/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Indeed. Therefore by your own admission, endeavor to be level headed and open-minded at the same time. As for models of psychic centers, chakras in the Indian context, I have sought their existence, howsoever veiled, in all manner of writings, for over 4 decades now, from Egyptian papyri to the biblical Jacob's dream of a stairway (there is much more in the names connected to this story than in the description that first meets one's inner eye)! From India to the Indians of North America. The model of a hierarchy of motives is archetypal. It is not invented, but emerges fully formed like a god or goddess emerging full-grown from the matrix of its creator. Note how the psychic centers correspond to the tiers of the Tibetan stupa or Japanese pagoda. The inner projects the outer.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21966138 - 07/19/15 04:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well I hope you didn't mistake me for departing from this, I was attempting to articulate a phenomenological background. Surely as you say the inner experience projects the outer.

I feel like I may be so to speak a young whippersnapper at this point, or what they call a "stream enterer".

I find the consistencies of a stream of experience is neither confirmed nor not, and find this really significant. Sometimes I verge toward pathlessness and roaming.

I'll say I really like Heraclitus of Ephesus' words, who referred to our Greek inspired logos:

Quote:

ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμβαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ.

Potamoisi toisin autoisin embainousin, hetera kai hetera hudata epirrei

"Ever-newer waters flow on those who step into the same rivers."





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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Kurt]
    #21966464 - 07/19/15 06:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ah basically I just think personal experience and practice is where it's at iow...99 percent.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Kurt]
    #21966695 - 07/19/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That's all there is - experience. However, I like to find others who have experienced what I have, and who have not merely articulated a given experience, but who may have seen a gestalt into which said experience fits. Therefore, systematic thought has precedence over and above isolated, individual experience. It is rather solipsistic if not autistic to rest content within one's isolated individual experience without the intention to reify it in the light of other beings' experience. We all fall into error and require instruction, even if disagreement with a given instruction results in greater understanding (as Gautama did disagreeing with the ascetics).


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Kurt]
    #21966724 - 07/19/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
Well I hope you didn't mistake me for departing from this, I was attempting to articulate a phenomenological background. Surely as you say the inner experience projects the outer.

I feel like I may be so to speak a young whippersnapper at this point, or what they call a "stream enterer".

I find the consistencies of a stream of experience is neither confirmed nor not, and find this really significant. Sometimes I verge toward pathlessness and roaming.

I'll say I really like Heraclitus of Ephesus' words, who referred to our Greek inspired logos:

Quote:

ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμβαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ.

Potamoisi toisin autoisin embainousin, hetera kai hetera hudata epirrei

"Ever-newer waters flow on those who step into the same rivers."









I'm more of of an Anaximander person myself. Whereas I appreciate the metaphors of water flowing, I prefer to a vague cosmic "Apeiron" over the Heraclitean flow. It's not very Buddhist of me, but then again, I could never in all honest say that I was a Buddhist, strictly speaking.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21967310 - 07/19/15 09:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
That's all there is - experience. However, I like to find others who have experienced what I have, and who have not merely articulated a given experience, but who may have seen a gestalt into which said experience fits. Therefore, systematic thought has precedence over and above isolated, individual experience. It is rather solipsistic if not autistic to rest content within one's isolated individual experience without the intention to reify it in the light of other beings' experience. We all fall into error and require instruction, even if disagreement with a given instruction results in greater understanding (as Gautama did disagreeing with the ascetics).




Great post.

Life does seem like a larger constellation to be interpreted, I just don't know what I would say upon this basis. I would say I feel a wanderer more than anything. I know what it is to have lived under the stars.

I have also felt basically autistic and socially retarded in enough cases to appreciate your response. (And I guess phenomenology isn't as novel of a concept around here as it is in P+S.) Touché. :-)

But still, I wasn't saying I wasn't thinking of connecting those dots.

A common gestalt which I am curious about, is that many psychonauts are first put in touch with broader traditions of meditation practice through their experiences. Not only that, but I have heard of many people specifically having their third eye chakra open on psychedelics. Then they begin a traditional practice, and begin at the root.

I guess I was thinking of Stream enterering like that, much less than traditionally. Coming back to the same stream. You come to the edge of the bank and step in though. This is what I am appreciating.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Kurt]
    #21967397 - 07/19/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I manage to [bracket] whatever significantly draws the intentionality of my consciousness in a typical phenomenological epoché. I do not expect that most people in any forum know what the hell I'm talking about. :shrug:


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21968235 - 07/19/15 11:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Husserl was pretty technical... "Bracketing...(?)

My own western phenomenological provisions would probably be in Kant or Heidegger, who, however obtuse they might be, clearly had distinctive ideas of ways of being that I can grok and begin with as a basis for understanding what they meant.

"Transcendental subjectivity"..."Dasein", I think relatively speaking they were both more reactive to, than assumptive of Cartesian subjectivity as a technical suggestion (of methodological doubt to things in front of us)

I guess what I would say again pretty much on my own terms is it seems possible to refer to phenomenology in a positive and relatively simple sense, for instance, just to indicate that some things may only be evident at the stream of sensory experience. We don't have some screen to put sense data onto, but it can still be found. I tend to think phenomenology can be relatively unconfined.

I was admitting there are limitations to this, and in addition to concurring, I would say I don't think it's mainly the simplicity of the idea that is problematical. The Yoga Sutras are perfectly consistent with an apperception of phenomena, since they find all knowledge per se to be in flux of mind states (there is no empiricist-phenomenologist division). This flux is both an immanent phenomenal description itself, and pragmatic adoption of a goal. I.e. the the essential difference would be in that the yoga sutras do not seem to be ultimately seeking a static commensurable representation of phenomenon, but are indeed practically involved in stilling the fluctuations in which impressions occur. So I verge to that.

I am not familiar with the upper eschalons of samadhi, but the sutras describe the turn from the idea of tranquility and stilling the fluctuations of the mind apparatus, into something else. This transformation theoretically makes sense to me, and as I ponder this at the same time, I find a practice all goal or practice generally achieves a great phenomenal description of the world at the same time, that it is not mainly intent on evoking arising impressions or ideal representations. That is what I come to.

I am interested in what Husserl says is a departure from a "natural attitude" (I think he means the confines of naturalism as discussed in western philosophical tradition - as equivocal to "materialism") but I am not familiar enough to comment. I don't know if it resolves the certain limitations (such as eccentricity and solipsism) which the phenomenologist can run into.

I'd say Chakras are a perfect example of something you can find or "catch" in a phenomenological stream of sense in one way, but the problem with this seems to be that in experience many things occur by actually letting something happen, or opening, and not by an "attitude" or mentality of openness. I would not say that this is a problem with phenomenology per se, but a common enough thing just in general I feel aware of.

In short, phenomenology seems to me like trying to catch a big fish in the stream of consciousness, as far as I can understand it. As you say, phenomenology may just mainly be a way to ascribe phenomena in a logical way, to contain or ascribe an idea of what was expereinced. But maybe it is a different attitude? I am not sure.

And I'm not sure what Husserl is on about with those brackets, all in all. I never understood him too well. Maybe I'll do some reading up.


Edited by Kurt (07/21/15 10:44 AM)


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: unsui888]
    #21975006 - 07/21/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The CNS


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Kurt]
    #21977932 - 07/21/15 10:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21977986 - 07/21/15 10:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

For example, the act of seeing a horse qualifies as a mental experience, whether one sees the horse in person, in a dream, or in a hallucination. 'Bracketing' the horse suspends any judgement about the horse as noumenon, and instead analyses the phenomenon of the horse in the human mind.




Happened to read that while watching the intro to Bojack Horseman. :lol: Great link.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Middleman]
    #21977993 - 07/21/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Synchronicity! :yesnod:


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21978500 - 07/22/15 12:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I actually took a look at his Ideas and I think I may keep going with it. :-) I am finding I am able to read this unlike his Cartesian Meditations which for some reason I was told to begin with a while ago and found impossible, and intractably Cartesian in spirit.

Anyway the wiki is clear, and I appreciate the gesture to Kant. Husserl seems to be designating the neumenon or thing in itself, while at the same time not fundamentally ascribing it, but ascribing the content of the inversion, in further involution (bracketing)

So for example, as I take it, in Husserl's thought a dream could be phenomenal itself, while perhaps Kant's parlay (which could only involve itself in one sort of implied "thing") could thereby only be with things in their implied material content. So bracketing could be useful to describe visceral energetic-like experiences that occur in dreams, for anyone has experienced anything like that.

I'd say this is basically what I have been saying up to this point (without using brackets which in turn must clearly indicate the idiosyncracy - or perhaps solipsism or yes borderline "autism" of an idea... as you were saying :lol:).

In that sense, I'd say it is basic function of phenomenology to find such manner of ascription of what is contained, (but possibly commonly experienced) as personal experience. I don't see the possibility of this technicality being anything fundamental. Phenomenology is the efficient means at communicating personal experiences in a synthetic or logical way.

People have superimposed representations of visual, or other sensations of colors or sounds, or other feelings upon charts of the body, or specifically the bundles of nerves in the CNS, in a way that has generally found a common consensus one way or another in personal experience.

This would be putting phenomena in the bracketed frame of reference, which we acknowledge as representation, and yet still can find useful as representation. (Or bracketing is "take it or leave it" content). Basically if you have experienced something somewhat the same, but it is not self evident, or something you just look at to confirm in a literal way, like by looking at the chart, these framed representations could be useful.

So, my conclusion about bracketing is that not a ding en sich, or neumenon, but surrounding practices must be considered key, for any of this to suggest any convenience, while at the same time turning toward further involution (bracketing)...

As I understand Husserl was seeking a western scientific achievement, which means he was looking for a fundamental representation of the world. I wonder where that search took him? I will be reading up. Appreciate the reference.

Thanks for the reference and genuine guidance Markos. I believe a thing or two may be learned from the elders, I don't deny that, even if I do also value and cleave to personal experience.


Edited by Kurt (07/22/15 11:30 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Any evidence for chakra system? [Re: Kurt]
    #21979598 - 07/22/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have always had my elders. In fact, I recently reconnected with a very influential college professor for the first time in 40 years. He was always a 19th century man at heart, and introduced me to William James, Walt Whitman, R.M. Bucke (indirectly and in connection), philosophy of mind, philosophy of surrealism, Freud's The Interpretations of Dreams (in connection to the Surrealist movement), philosophy of anarchy, and Bohemian life in general. Meanwhile, over 40 years, I became old and hence an elder myself. This does not preclude learning from my juniors, which I routinely do as most of my current acquaintances in real-time are younger than me, sometimes by half my age. If I cannot learn from a younger, the relationship is not friendship, it is teacher-student - not something I want to cultivate outside of a classroom, and I haven't taught college or grad school for many years.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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