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Mr.GuessWork
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Registered: 03/30/13
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: zappaisgod]
#21960294 - 07/18/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: Why are you entitled to a life? Did you know that the human brain does not become fully mature until the mid twenties? That is why I support abortion into at least the 75th trimester.
Roe was based on a faulty application of the Constitution but I thought it was a brilliant piece of legislation. I also saw the looming problem in the reasoning. Much of the argument supporting the 26 week limit was predicated on fetal viability at the time. Well guess what. Technology has improved and it is now possible to save babies born at 20 weeks. What does that do to the law?
Unless it is for some some medical issue that surfaces late, and those are permitted up to the end, why doesn't the fucking moron just get it done right away? You have 3 months no questions asked. Just fucking do it if your gonna do it and no a fucking fetus is not an unfeeling cluster of cells or an organ at 20 weeks. That's fucking stupid. It reacts to stimuli and can feel pain.. Your liver does not feel pain because it doesn't have a brain. You feel pain. Your organs don't. They cause pain.
The fetus brain is still developing big time at 20 weeks. A plant can react to pain (slightly sloppy use of language, but it's similar enough), and a pig has a way more developed reaction to pain than a 20 week old fetus has, but it's still okay to make it bacon because it's not a person. Reacting to pain is not the same thing as being a person. Nobody said it wasn't alive, just that it's not a person. It's more complex than an organ, but it's not a small person or a tiny baby either.
Personally, I'd draw the line for abortions at whenever the baby can live independently of the mother with a reasonably good outlook. And nothing in this world will stop people from being stupid except death, so any reasoning that depends on people not being idiots is useless and unrealistic. We sure as hell don't need laws that force stupid people to reproduce.
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Amanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
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Pigs aren't humans..different set of rules.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: zappaisgod]
#21960323 - 07/18/15 12:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: At what point does it become a baby and not just a lumpen fetus parasite? Blackmun hinged his decision on viability. Well the technology now can save a 20 week old fetus and turn it into a baby.
None of the eggs that you eat are fertilized. They cannot be fertilized by roosters after they are laid.
I would hinge it on viability and sentience, something like what pirate blues was talking about. I would say that sentience is needed, but viability has to be there to ensure that the baby can survive without the mother. I think that's a fair way to determine whether or not it's a "person" that's being killed.
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Mr.GuessWork
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: Amanita86]
#21960332 - 07/18/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Amanita86 said: Pigs aren't humans..different set of rules.
The point was that feeling pain alone is not sufficient to be considered a person. People do more stuff than that.
Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/18/15 12:19 PM)
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pirate-blues


Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,656
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: zappaisgod]
#21960345 - 07/18/15 12:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: I didn't say sentience. They react to stimuli and feel pain. They have tiny little brains
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1111%2Fj.1748-720X.2011.00592.x?r3_referer=wol&tracking_action=preview_click&show_checkout=1&purchase_referrer=onlinelibrary.wiley.com&purchase_site_license=LICENSE_DENIED_NO_CUSTOMER
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(1) At least by twenty weeks after fertilization there is substantial evidence that an unborn child has the physical structures necessary to experience pain; (2) There is substantial evi-dence that, by twenty weeks after fertilization, unborn children seek to evade certain stimuli in a manner in which in an infant or an adult would be interpreted as a response to pain; (3) Anesthesia is routinely administered to unborn children who have developed twenty weeks or more past fertilization who undergo prenatal surgery; (4) Even before twenty weeks after fer-tilization, unborn children have been observed to exhibit hormonal stress responses to painful stimuli. Such responses were reduced when pain medication was administered directly to such unborn children;
http://www.rhm-elsevier.com/article/S0968-8080(08)31370-6/abstract
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Neurobiological features that develop at 7, 18 and 26 weeks gestation suggest an experience of pain in utero.
Both of these papers are written from an abortion supporter's perspective but they have to acknowledge things
Out of curiousity, have they proven that reacting to stimuli=pain? Do they react different to painful stimuli compared to other forms? Is hormonal stress absolutely indicative of that, being and involuntary physiological reaction? I'm just wondering, I can't disprove that and I'd imagine we don't have much more to go off of than that.
On the other hand bacteria and any kind of microorganism reacts to stimuli. Our bodies internally react to stimuli pretty much constantly, even stressful stimuli that is not always apparent to said person can cause a physiological response.
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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Quote:
Mr.GuessWork said:
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Amanita86 said: Pigs aren't humans..different set of rules.
The point was that feeling pain alone is not sufficient to be considered a person. People do more stuff than that.
It should be sufficent enough to not voluntarily inflict pain upon it..
The only reason you're spewing this shit is because it's not you who is the victim here.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


Registered: 10/11/08
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: Amanita86]
#21960389 - 07/18/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Amanita86 said: You can take that science talk on out of here.. that fetus is a baby in the making... but for the fact the doctor blew that process, you have a baby human ... living..
Aka, the doctor killed a living human.
yeah wouldn't that be easy.
Edited by Beanhead (07/18/15 12:32 PM)
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Salomon
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: Astral Pain]
#21960395 - 07/18/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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if i was in the genetic research business, i'd buy a grip of baby tissue, theres alot of good material use for good human samples.
-------------------- EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
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pirate-blues


Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,656
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: Amanita86]
#21960411 - 07/18/15 12:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Amanita, I respect your right to have your own opinion on something you obviously feel strongly about. I get that no one involved in this thread is going to successfully convince anyone to do a 180 about abortion, which is why threads like these make me laugh because they never really lead anywhere conclusive - but I think it's important to hear differing view points.
That being said, I'm still genuinely wondering if these responses are the actual result of pain, or a simple response to stimuli, in the same sense a simpler organism(crustaceans are one that come to mind that are macroorganisms. They will react to threats and they will react to another animal attacking them, but there is a lot of evidence that they're not developed enough to actually feel pain. The brain is incredibly complex and takes a long time to develop, if the right part shuts down or is simply not developed, despite someone being alive(for the sake of an example, someone brain dead or who's brain is shutting down from something like bacterial meningitis) then they really are not considered human anymore, they're brain is reduced to the same primal functions seen in simpler organisms.
I am curious, is your stance religious, or ethical? Do you believe life begins at conception, or in the existence of souls. I myself, don't believe in life at conception - but I do believe that we return to the earth in some way - perhaps not even as one "entity" but recycled with other matter that's returned to the universe(I'm also open to the idea that life ends with the brain), I do not consider a fetus in early term pregnancy to be human, even if I strongly believed in some kind of variation of a soul. I just feel that sentience comes later, and because something is alive does not necessarily share similarities with what we normally think - but more along the lines of cells, internal organs, etc.
I'm just curious about your opinion.
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Mr.GuessWork
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: Amanita86] 1
#21960420 - 07/18/15 12:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Amanita86 said:
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Mr.GuessWork said:
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Amanita86 said: Pigs aren't humans..different set of rules.
The point was that feeling pain alone is not sufficient to be considered a person. People do more stuff than that.
It should be sufficent enough to not voluntarily inflict pain upon it..
The only reason you're spewing this shit is because it's not you who is the victim here.
I am not a fetus, and a fetus is not a victim. Again, Why do you consider it to be a person? Am I a rock-star astronaut just because I could be one? No, I'm not.
It's not sadism, man. Nobody enjoys making living things feel pain (mostly nobody). We cause pain in other animals and humans for lots of very good reasons. In this particular case we're causing pain and harm to a developing cluster of tissues because we don't want it to become a person. That's as good a reason as any, especially if the alternative is to force an idiot to assume responsibility for that person. Again, why do you think it's necessary to force people to undergo 9 months of pain and suffering (and a lifetime on top of that) just to avoid a few seconds or minutes of "pain" for a fetus? Why is the fetus more important than the parents?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Mr.GuessWork said:
Personally, I'd draw the line for abortions at whenever the baby can live independently of the mother with a reasonably good outlook. And nothing in this world will stop people from being stupid except death, so any reasoning that depends on people not being idiots is useless and unrealistic. We sure as hell don't need laws that force stupid people to reproduce.
Currently it is possible for 20 week old fetuses to survive outside of the womb. Hence my point about Blackmun's reasoning which was calculated on 26 week viability. It was inevitable that the technology would improve. And when technology advances to the point that the fetus can survive in an incubator from fertilization? What happens to the law then?
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Mr.GuessWork
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Quote:
pirate-blues said:
...
That being said, I'm still genuinely wondering if these responses are the actual result of pain, or a simple response to stimuli, in the same sense a simpler organism(crustaceans are one that come to mind that are macroorganisms. They will react to threats and they will react to another animal attacking them, but there is a lot of evidence that they're not developed enough to actually feel pain. The brain is incredibly complex and takes a long time to develop, if the right part shuts down or is simply not developed, despite someone being alive(for the sake of an example, someone brain dead or who's brain is shutting down from something like bacterial meningitis) then they really are not considered human anymore, they're brain is reduced to the same primal functions seen in simpler organisms.
...
I think one of the links you posted mentioned a bit about it. It's not pain in the sense that we perceive it. Depending on the stage of development, the input from pain probably gets managed in different ways since the whole brain is developing pretty aggressively. I don't think the brain is stable enough during fetal development to do anything as complex as form memories, and our response to pain is pretty damn complex, so I strongly doubt that the pain response does anything that's very functional for the baby. The brain has to be alive to develop, and functionality slowly gets put in place while everything is developing.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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I don't have any memories from before 4. I don't think many people do. Does that mean they are expendable. Like I said earlier, your brain does not really fully form until you are in your twenties.
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pirate-blues


Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,656
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: zappaisgod]
#21960475 - 07/18/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yup. Can confirm, am 23, have been way stupider than I thought I ever was due to lack of brain development, am only less stupid enough to know that I'm still stupid and my brain won't be done for another two years.
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Mr.GuessWork
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: zappaisgod]
#21960486 - 07/18/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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Mr.GuessWork said:
Personally, I'd draw the line for abortions at whenever the baby can live independently of the mother with a reasonably good outlook. And nothing in this world will stop people from being stupid except death, so any reasoning that depends on people not being idiots is useless and unrealistic. We sure as hell don't need laws that force stupid people to reproduce.
Currently it is possible for 20 week old fetuses to survive outside of the womb. Hence my point about Blackmun's reasoning which was calculated on 26 week viability. It was inevitable that the technology would improve. And when technology advances to the point that the fetus can survive in an incubator from fertilization? What happens to the law then?
That's why I'd add in that bit about sentience, which probably develops around 30 weeks (source is the link pirate blue posted). It keeps the limit kind of high, it probably cuts down on medical costs, and it helps draw the line on what should be classified as people in a clear way that can be supported with some evidence at least
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Amanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
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My stance is both. In my world I can't justify the ending of life for convenience. It just doesn't work that way. In my world we suggest that a person be responsible for their actions. We don't murder people for convenience, the thought of that is ...it's beyond words.
We take life pretty seriously where I come from, on all levels whether it's plants, animals or people etc..
Where I come from, when someone becomes pregnant, usually the celebrations commence. It's a big fucking deal..
So whether it's moral, religious, or spiritual.. it's probably a mixture of all in my case. But it's blatant respect for others when you get down to the nitty gritty of it..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Mr.GuessWork
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pirate-blues said: Yup. Can confirm, am 23, have been way stupider than I thought I ever was due to lack of brain development, am only less stupid enough to know that I'm still stupid and my brain won't be done for another two years.
Haha, full development of the frontal lobes happens earlier in girls, so you're all there.
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pirate-blues said:
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Mr.GuessWork said:
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Amanita86 said: A brain dead person doesn't have much life ahead of them, a fetus does..
You're robbing an entire life, as opposed to ending one that has reached it's end.
Why is the fetus entitled to a life in the first place? It really is closer to an organ than it is to a person while it's in the womb, especially up to the abortion dead line. Why do you feel a lady should be obligated to turn a sac of tissues into a person if she doesn't want to? You might as well argue that we're all obligated to have children just because we've got sperm or eggs. Is a sperm or egg a person? You should have a solid reason if you want to draw that line for other people and define what life is for them, because killing a chicken and frying an egg are two different things to most people.
An interesting thing about women's bodies is that, miscarriage in early pregnancy if FAR more common than people realize - even the women themselves. Our own bodies self-abort more frequently than we know. Self-abortion(and abortion at will) is actually something that happens to several species of animals, other species can delay the pregnancy. It's something that is essential for their species - and you could argue that aborting a fetus that has very little chance of being born into a family that's ready, mature, or capable of raising a child in a safe home environment benefit our society. Some even argue that legalization of abortion has been a factor(one of many) in the decline of violent crime in the US.
I know armadillos can induce abortions, but here's an interesting article about self-termination among primates(particularly gelada monkeys)
http://io9.com/5886670/gelada-monkeys-offer-evidence-that-abortion-is-part-of-evolutionary-fitness
http://women.texaschildrens.org/Health-Topics/Pregnancy-Center/Early-Miscarriage/ ^ source for frequency of undetected miscarriages in early stages of pregnances, arguably another evolutionary mechanism.
Ya, I made this point a few pages earlier too. Miscarriage is usually the result of messed up genes in the fertilized egg (meiosis is kinda error prone), so miscarriages are a way of getting rid of bad genetics so we don't waste resources on bad offspring. It's gives us an advantage against the nature side of nature and nurture. Abortions at the doctors office give us an advantage against the nurture side of nature and nurture. You could probably argue that doctor's abortions are even more advantageous because miscarriage offspring that would otherwise be born would die shortly after birth, while the genetically viable kids that are raised in dysfunctional families are likely to end up as welfare bums and jailbirds, and that's a lifetime of wasted resources.
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Amanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
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You know how many respect worthy people came from a shit upbringing? You generalizations are bunk..
..and I'll add, you know how many truly horrible people came from a background of never having want?
Judge not less ye be..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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pirate-blues


Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,656
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: Amanita86]
#21960585 - 07/18/15 01:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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And many more end up slipping through the cracks, failed by the system, victims of violent crime, or perpetrators of violent crime. And a lot of horrible people have come from backgrounds where they were not wanted.
Serial killers, for instance, when given cat scans(maybe mris, idk, but brain scans none the less) all share patterns in the "wiring" of their brain. These individuals are very much capable of living a healthy life and not becoming violent or homicidal provided that the environment is good(the neuroscientist leading this study himself had the same patterns in his scans, but came from a healthy environment). I'm not saying that there aren't serial killers that were wanted and loved, because there are - but the overwhelming majority came from extremely abusive homes. That's been proven time and time again.
Kids who are raised in poverty stricken areas, particularly areas in large cities that have been left to decay for decades after the loss of industry, are extremely vulnerable to the influences of that neighborhood. There are brilliant people that come out of there against all odds, but many end up getting sucked into the culture of violence that surrounds them - especially if their parents are not trying to set good examples and goals and encouraging them to get out.
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Mr.GuessWork
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Re: Baby body parts for sale [Re: Amanita86]
#21960590 - 07/18/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Amanita86 said: My stance is both. In my world I can't justify the ending of life for convenience. It just doesn't work that way. In my world we suggest that a person be responsible for their actions. We don't murder people for convenience, the thought of that is ...it's beyond words.
We take life pretty seriously where I come from, on all levels whether it's plants, animals or people etc..
Where I come from, when someone becomes pregnant, usually the celebrations commence. It's a big fucking deal..
So whether it's moral, religious, or spiritual.. it's probably a mixture of all in my case. But it's blatant fucking respect for others when you get down to the nitty gritty of it..
That's cool as long as everybody is happy with it and it's all voluntary. It's only really bad, IMO, when that view gets forced on people who don't want it. I kind of feel like you want to do that a bit, and that you're judging the people who choose the more convenient route as if they're being immoral. Your view is the traditional one, and it's been held pretty much world wide until recently.
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Amanita86 said: You know how many respect worthy people came from a shit upbringing? You generalizations are bunk..
..and I'll add, you know how many truly horrible people came from a background of never having want?
Judge not less ye be..
I didn't say it was fate, and I didn't say it was impossible for people with shit upbringings to do well, but a shit upbringing is a clear disadvantage for a child, and that is a well supported fact, and it's common knowledge. People who are brought up in dysfuntional families have problems that could have been avoided if they had better circumstances. And if you look at it on a meaningfully sized scale, socioeconomic factors like poverty and lack of education have a huge impact on people's well-being. Abortions let people choose to have kids when they feel prepared to give the kid an adequate or optimal upbringing. That is a blessing, and I'm glad my parents gave a fuck about how they'd raise me. If more people did that, then we'd have a lot less problems.
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