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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: PocketLady]
    #21956497 - 07/17/15 02:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

i certainly cannot say that my experience is true for everyone and i am open to the idea of sexual energy being important for spiritual practice. but what doesn't make sense to me is that the male body is always producing sperm to have available, even when one isn't ejaculating, and this sperm that isn't used is i guess destroyed by the body. but it isn't the case that when one goes to ejaculate that the body has to at that time create the sperm and use up its vital energy. perhaps one who ejaculates frequently increases the rate of sperm production though. i'm not so sure on the female physiology, but i was under the impression that the ovaries store many eggs, and it's not the case that a new egg is produced each month prior to menstruation. so to me, it doesn't seem like menstruation would require a lot of vital energy, as the egg being released was held in the ovaries for a long time already, no? maybe i'm wrong though :smile:

i think with these kinds of beliefs though, it's very easy to create a situation of a self-fulfilling prophecy - where the belief that one will experience a loss of energy after ejaculation/menstruation will make one experience such a perceived loss. i know when i first started experimenting with abstinence, i would think i would feel a big loss in energy after ejaculating, as i expected to be the case. however now when i no longer hold that belief, i don't notice it :lol: so in my case anyways, i've concluded a lot of it was based around expectation. i find that i have no problem meditating regardless of the time since i last ejaculated now, though i do engage in that quite moderately, and perhaps with excessive ejaculation a more noticeable drop in energy levels might be noted.

one thing i would want people to avoid though, which in this case would be more with males than females, is the kind of guilt associated with ejaculation when they hold the belief that it has negative results spiritually. i've seen that happen before, a user on this forum comes to mind who had a real hard time with trying to be abstinent and then feeling shitty every time he'd masturbate. this kind of hang-up / guilt over the issue i think is far more detrimental than any loss of energy i've noticed :smile: though others have also had apparently good results from abstaining, such as those in the no-fap movement :smile: but again, i do feel that there's room for a lot of confirmation bias and such with this :smile:


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: deff]
    #21956680 - 07/17/15 03:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Quote:

PocketLady said:
The reason that abstinence is encouraged if you are on a spiritual path is not because there is any shame in having sex, as many believe and some religions teach. It is simply because the male ejaculation causes a loss in vitality (spiritual energy). For women, vitality is lost through the menses. If you are trying to meditate or reaching higher states of consciousness, you will not be able to do so if you have ejaculated recently, because you simply won't have the energy required to maintain a high level of awareness.




I have to agree with the others that I haven't found this to be true myself. I went roughly seven months without ejaculating while holding this belief, and I didn't notice much of a difference really. and now i don't notice any energy loss or problems in meditation after ejaculation :shrug: i think there is a great potential for developing hang-ups and obsessive thinking on this topic. and if someone develops this kind of hang-up, i think it would be much more detrimental to meditation than ejaculating is. i know that yogic traditions often hold the view you mentioned, but i haven't found it to be particularly true myself. :smile:

that said, i could see trying to meditate immediately after ejaculating posing some problems in terms of focusing, in much the way that meditating immediately after any physical exercise can. but not so much imo over a longer period of time, that would necessitate abstinence.



Quote:

deff said:
yeah I can see the calmness being beneficial :smile: it's something I don't think I've really tried before, or if I did then I didn't take mental note of it :smile:



Quote:

deff said:
i certainly cannot say that my experience is true for everyone and i am open to the idea of sexual energy being important for spiritual practice. but what doesn't make sense to me is that the male body is always producing sperm to have available, even when one isn't ejaculating, and this sperm that isn't used is i guess destroyed by the body. but it isn't the case that when one goes to ejaculate that the body has to at that time create the sperm and use up its vital energy. perhaps one who ejaculates frequently increases the rate of sperm production though. i'm not so sure on the female physiology, but i was under the impression that the ovaries store many eggs, and it's not the case that a new egg is produced each month prior to menstruation. so to me, it doesn't seem like menstruation would require a lot of vital energy, as the egg being released was held in the ovaries for a long time already, no? maybe i'm wrong though :smile:

i think with these kinds of beliefs though, it's very easy to create a situation of a self-fulfilling prophecy - where the belief that one will experience a loss of energy after ejaculation/menstruation will make one experience such a perceived loss. i know when i first started experimenting with abstinence, i would think i would feel a big loss in energy after ejaculating, as i expected to be the case. however now when i no longer hold that belief, i don't notice it :lol: so in my case anyways, i've concluded a lot of it was based around expectation. i find that i have no problem meditating regardless of the time since i last ejaculated now, though i do engage in that quite moderately, and perhaps with excessive ejaculation a more noticeable drop in energy levels might be noted.

one thing i would want people to avoid though, which in this case would be more with males than females, is the kind of guilt associated with ejaculation when they hold the belief that it has negative results spiritually. i've seen that happen before, a user on this forum comes to mind who had a real hard time with trying to be abstinent and then feeling shitty every time he'd masturbate. this kind of hang-up / guilt over the issue i think is far more detrimental than any loss of energy i've noticed :smile: though others have also had apparently good results from abstaining, such as those in the no-fap movement :smile: but again, i do feel that there's room for a lot of confirmation bias and such with this :smile:




Deff generally did a good job summing up what needs to be said here. I just finished being trapped in this thought process and it was quite detrimental to my growth. I always felt guilty after busting

IMO I find that meditating after bsuting does mess up my concentration. I tried not fapping and believed that sperm held some sort of life force essence. Much life deff said, this is a very limiting beleif

All that being said, while I DONT believe abstinence to nessacerily lead to spiritual clarity, I do feel that excessive masturbation can be a hinderance to growth as well

I would say once every 1-2 days all the way to 1-2 times a week is perfectly healthy "range"

What I DO personally feel is harmful to spiritual growth is hardcore porn. It has personally messed up my expectations in bed and IMO movie/porn sex is much different and less passionate than real sex with a real life partner

There is a lot of discussion in the daoist, Traditional Chinese, and I believe auyurvedic traditions that sperm holds life-force and depleting it too fast could lead to something which resembles adrenal burnout/fatigue. I don't know enough about this, but i personally disagree. You are free to read further. I found this and read it through when I personally looked into this question:
http://www.nofap.com/forum/index.php?threads/traditional-chinese-medicine-view-on-ejaculation-and-its-effects-on-health.3819/

"

And TCM is very specific about ejaculations - they ruin mens lives. It should be avoided unless one would like to conceive a child. Of course even thousands years ago (in absence of sex culture) it was against human (or animal) nature. Therefore TCM suggested to limit ejaculations to specific count given one's health status and age. Here are the suggestions for MAXIMUM ejaculation frequency:
20 years old - 1x daily
30 yo - once per 2 days
40 yo - once per 4 days
50 yo - once per 10 days
60 yo - once per 20 days
70 yo - once per month if he is good health
Moreover if someone is in bad health he should divide those by 2 or better not ejaculate at all until his health get better. Man should limit his ejaculations in winter and can increase in spring. Ejaculations in winter are especially harmful. Of course people who would like to have rich spiritual life, engage in meditation (or become immortal :smile: and so on shoul follow taoists directions and refrain from ejaculation at all, unless when wanting a child.
In last post I forgot to mention that jing is composed of two ingredients:
- pre-natal jing - this is inherited from parents and can not be replaced od replenished (immortality would be aquired then). This jing can transform to moving form and it is called yuan qi then. When it is depleted, man dies.
- post-natal jing - this is the essence produced by organism by eating food and breathing, so it can be replenished by eating (especially specific herbs and foods) and breathing (breathing exercises like pranayama helps).
When ejaculating - you loose part of BOTH. So part of it You can never replenish. When You're ejaculating in a very little frequency (ex once per 3 months) you loose more post-natal jing, but when ejaculating frequently the post-natal jing is insufficient so you are using mainly the unreplenishable jing, the deepest reserves.

"

Also, I would HIGHLY suggest taking magnesium, zinc and calcium supplement. For me, I notcied it helps me reduce that "post-bust" tiredness. I believe most soil on the planet is deficient in this minerals. Supplementing helps aid the production of sperm. Taking a supplement with all of these significantly increased my sex drive, the size and "fullness" of my loads. Between supplementing and reducing the frequency of my busts to once per 1-2 days, I feel fine

tl:dr; I feel that excessive masturbation is always an issue. I put the border of excessive jacking off at about beyond once per day. I also think that porn is psycholigocally detrimental. for further reading, look into indian, chinese and daoist traditions. Look into supplementing zinc, mag, and calcium. Busting nuts depletes all of these. They are all available in one vitamin typically


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: deff]
    #21956761 - 07/17/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think you are equating physical energy (i.e the physical energy needed to produce sperm/eggs etc) with vital or sexual energy. My understanding is that they are not the same thing. What is special about the sperm and the egg/menses is that they contain the energy of life, of creation. They are a physical manifestation of the most powerful energy in the universe. I'm not sure that it matters whether the sperm regenerates itself, or that there are a certain number of eggs already inside the human body. They are just a conduit for energy that we already have a connection to, albeit an unstable one for most of us which is why it is so easily depleted. Truth be told, I think with women, the energy leaves with the blood as well as the egg itself. Now what would you say if I told you that I can actually feel that energy itself leaving my body of the course of two or three days? Maybe it is just my imagination right? But I like to think I know myself a little better than that :smile:

I see where you are coming from regarding confirmation bias, but I am pretty sure that is not the case. Not only do I have my own experiences, and those of others doing the same alchemical work as me, but as you have mentioned yourself, the yogic tradition (and many others) state almost exactly the same thing. I'm not one to blindly follow something, but the wisdom of the yogic tradition is undeniable to me in so many aspects, as well as tallying with my own experience in this matter and in many others. When I have a good "store" of vital energy, I can bring myself into blissful ecstatic states with relative ease, but when I have no store, no blissfulness either. I'm pretty sure that's not just placebo. Off the top of my head, Daoism, Hinduism/Yoga, Kabbalah, Western Alchemy, Tantra, Buddhism, all of these practically-based traditions say the same thing regarding sex :shrug: All of these maps point the same way, and IMHO there is a reason for that. Although I am not saying that they are the only way of course :smile:

I really do want to stress though that unless a person is actively engaged in Tantra, Kundalini yoga, Tummo, Alchemy etc, then at one end of the scale, saving your seed might do nothing for you, but at the other end it could cause issues for the reasons I've already mentioned, because you are not actively working with the energy itself with a view to transforming it.

This is an interesting article on Tantra and sexual energy. The focus is somewhat on the relationship of the guru and disciple, but that is not my reason for sharing it.

http://www.ishafoundation.org/blog/yoga-meditation/demystifying-yoga/the-truth-about-tantra/

I also understand what you are saying about attitudes towards sex, and on the spiritual path I think the aim should be to release attachment to sex, and all ideas about sex, whether positive or negative.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: PocketLady]
    #21956938 - 07/17/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

yeah, whatever works for the individual is what's important :smile: which is why self exploration and such is important i think

as for buddhism - while the monastic tradition of buddhism avoids sexual activity, it's not for an energetic reason, but rather because of the desire and attachment, which i would agree can become a distraction from spiritual cultivation (especially at the level of being a monk). in tibetan medicine actually, i've heard from a doctor of tibetan medicine that ojas is the vital energy that is meant to be conserved and that while excessive ejaculation can deplete it, moderate amounts of sexual activity doesn't pose a problem and instead stress is the major cause of the depletion of ojas. so different traditions view it differently :smile:

i agree with you though that attachment to sex is good to release on a spiritual path, as are any other attachments :smile: some traditions use sex as a form of practice as I know you're aware of, and semen retention isn't necessitated in all forms of tibetan sexual yoga for instance. different traditions approach these practices in their own way of course :smile:

so experimentation is key i think, as with most things on the spiritual path - trial and error and trying to be as honest with ourself as we can. i do see a potential for placebo playing a role (i feel it did for me), but that's up to the individual to ascertain of course :smile:


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: deff]
    #21957493 - 07/17/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Why can't you watch a sexual thought as you would any other?



IMO, and IME in fact, a sexual thought is not like any other kind of thought. Think of it as more as an 'urge' or 'drive'. I do not believe it is precluded by thought - it just is. I've a pretty powerful sex drive, and I can tell you one thing for sure - my thoughts do not motivate it. It just is.

Quote:

topdog82 said:
What I DO personally feel is harmful to spiritual growth is hardcore porn.



I COMPLETELY agree with you here. I have for some time been contemplating other forms of visual stimulation required to achieve orgasm (being a very visual person I absolutely require visual stimulation - unlike many friends who can use memory alone) but it's just so damn accessible (on your phone even now days) that I've not yet managed to supplement it with anything else. A work in progress. 

Quote:

deff said:
so experimentation is key i think, as with most things on the spiritual path - trial and error and trying to be as honest with ourself as we can.



Beautiful summary deff - I feel you hit the nail on the head right there. As I read recently in the link to MULTIDIMENSIONAL MAN you posted recently:

"We are a boundless species with infinite diversity of temperament and there are many paths open to us for focusing awareness as there are people. "


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #21957503 - 07/17/15 07:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

nice quote Jokeshopbeard! i think i missed that when i looked at that page :smile: i agree that what's right for one person could be totally wrong for another :smile:


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: deff]
    #21958605 - 07/17/15 11:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Here's an anecdote to add to the pile. Maybe it is a theoretical analogy too.

I have found marijuana can be good for yoga and meditation. It's not like there is a general opinion on these things; for instance, that meditation should or should not involve medication. The Tibetan book of the dead, and the I Ching talk about when to medicate and when not to. Clearly what is referred to in that (yes/no) is a based in a free and positive attitude. People have a yes no attitude about these things, that can be static, or an opinion expressed. Yes and no may just be based on sensitivity and intuition for a situation, more than static distinction. So I think the same way about sex. Saying "you are covering over", or "you are spilling" are not practical minded yes and no. We have our own bodies, and that is enough.

Again to the analogy; I went through a period of thinking that "marijuana" caused my anxiety. Actually I never blamed it,I just couldn't figure it out and so what was really a possibly open connection, was stifled up, or like there was a whole I was draining out of. I am not sure which feeling it ever is.

When I smoked though, marijuana seemed to be a cause. I didn't blame it, I was whatever I was, and it did "cause" anxiety every time I smoked. I had it down to nearly just a simple physiological pressure feeling even but I still could not "stop it" from happening any time I smoked.

Maybe I shouldn't have been trying to repress something? Surely I considered it. I tried sometimes to turn that into sexual energy, because I knew weed could be like that too, but at the time, I was alone, and pretty much out of touch with myself and my surroundings, and so it didn't work. :undecided:

Then I found yoga which helped me alot. I could turn that anxiety feeling into a nicer feeling of pressure, loving gravity to earth, or some great stretch and tension in the body, and breath. That was it for me. I wish I was still there, able to so easily heal. Unfortunately I am facing new physical challenges these days which I am currently fighting with yoga, as best I can. I guess it's all the same though. Life! Physis as the stoics put it...

Anyway I'd vouch that energies or subtle physical feelings do overlap in reality, and also in analogies to ostensibly disperate ways of being. Sex and meditation for instance, or being high, are all possible to consider as different activities. But there is surely a correspondence and common place to "tap" into in root level state of being in all of them. And they can be the same activity too, if fortune smiles. In my experience, anyway what I think is these energies do blend together and overlap even though it is hard to say exactly how.

What my youthful anxiety taught me is you can't force a transformation, exactly.

I remember when I was withholding in my practice, my subconscious states were an interesting place to experiment. Waking up in the middle of night, and laying still is an interesting way to feel all kinds of subtle vibrations. If I laid still they could become more involved, and I could guide them with my waking consciousness.

I remember once going from some "exciting" dream, to thinking why not get that into my breath? I could easily access that great ball of energy, bring it to the wave of my breath, bring it up, pulling, (something I had been experimenting with also) Anyway as soon as I got hold of it in breath and started to bring it up, it became too much. I did touch it, but barely.

On a conscious level as soon as I tapped into it and decided to bring it up, I felt my "stomach drop" that gravitas, and at the same time got hit with adrenaline, that snapped me right out of the whole thing. Basically the energy was something that I could access, but it was way too raw for me to handle. The feeling was exactly the physiological sensation of anxiety.

But that was experimental. I think the basis of say working wholly consciously, traditionally, like in sitting meditation, will maybe draw from a single source, that in its involved form could be either sexual or pranic, however you decide.

It's all one energy, in a way, I'd say. There is just some awkwardness or art to it (for me those experiences were always more ecstatic than tools.)

Anyway, I'd say the analogy and overlaps are definitely there. I have thought more than once that engaging the Bandhas or "locks", of yoga system (the lower mula bandha literally means "root" lock, and it is between the anus and genitals, which you slightly tense.) and breathing through them is almost like being a walking erection. It feels...good. Hah. Somewhat different clearly, but analogous, and good.

It's been a while I've been as lucid enough to feel that way, or let alone have anything interesting happen. But I still believe nervous systems, hormones, mind body rythmns, all overlap. Bones muscles, ligaments. Yes/no, is just that buckets to be filled are to be emptied, the taoist way.

"Love's over brimming mystery joins death and life. It has filled my cup of pain with joy."

Rabindranath Tagore

Writing this inspires me. Maybe I'll go back to the old "discipline".
Just for vitality I mean.

Anyway, thanks for reading :- )


Edited by Kurt (07/17/15 11:52 PM)


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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21964949 - 07/19/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

PocketLady said:
The reason that abstinence is encouraged if you are on a spiritual path is not because there is any shame in having sex, as many believe and some religions teach. It is simply because the male ejaculation causes a loss in vitality (spiritual energy). For women, vitality is lost through the menses. If you are trying to meditate or reaching higher states of consciousness, you will not be able to do so if you have ejaculated recently, because you simply won't have the energy required to maintain a high level of awareness.




Depends on your hangups I guess, some people don't have these sexual hangups and it would be decreasing their vitality "spiritual energy" if they didn't have sex.  That's my opinion.





As I understand it there is a shamanic version of sexual intercourse that is very powerful and little understood, probably because of its incredible power to heal and destroy.  For most people sex is a a shame tool used by the media to generate disillusionment.


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"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: Navi]
    #21966911 - 07/19/15 07:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Navi said:
Now that's not to say just being a virgin is spiritually rewarding/beneficial because you can be a virgin and still be shit head; Most of them are.

This question is mostly for those who believe in a spiritual path of some sort. Apart From Mary having been chosen in part because she was a virgin to carry out the birth of the Messiah. I haven't heard much about virginity holding any spiritual value except for maybe another very vague passage in the bible and learning about how various monks and people on a spiritual path follow abstinence. 


Do you think being a virgin and absent from sexual activity including masturbation holds any value to spiritual growth or development?





It is just to test to show that a person has a strong will to not let temptation over-powered them.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #21968881 - 07/20/15 01:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The Virgin Mary in particular doesn't seem like an overt message about how good abstinence is, or how bad sex is.

Many traditions down to Buddhists have descriptions of prophets doing cartwheels out of the uterus.

Reading between the lines God needed to impregnate Mary, for Jesus to be the son of God in lineage. Whether God would take the form of some stallion like Zeus going to town behind Hera's back, or whether this could as plausibly happen asexually may be a simple preference.

Does God even have a voice in the New Testament?

The Virgin Mary doesn't seem to be an example of the "virtue" of asexuality, in spite of the way it has been interpreted. It doesn't even seem like a direct example of the taboo of sexuality either.

...Interpreting interpretations may be different.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: Kurt]
    #21975144 - 07/21/15 10:52 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)





--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (07/21/15 10:54 AM)


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: PocketLady]
    #21975269 - 07/21/15 11:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:






i loled so hard at this


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: topdog82]
    #21975353 - 07/21/15 11:56 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yep, I laughed too when I first saw it :smile:

The Virgin Mary is often depicted like this, as part of a yoni, symbolising the divine goddess and power of creation.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: PocketLady]
    #21975539 - 07/21/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Oh my...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does being a virgin hold any spirtual value. [Re: Navi]
    #21978213 - 07/21/15 11:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The translation of the word virgin in the New testament was actually a mistranslation! Matthew used the Greek Septuigint version of the Tenach (OT) wherein he quotes Isaiah 7:14 was translated as "Behold, a virgin shall conceive..." That is because in the Greek, there was only one word for virgin (parthenos) but in Hebrew there is Isaiah's Hebrew word "almah" which means a young woman. The prophet Isaiah wrote "almah" - young woman, not the other Hebrew word for virgin which is betholah. When almah got translated into parthenos (like the virgin goddess Athena's temple, The Parthenon), it was interpreted as virgin. This was never the intention of Isaiah since the idea of a mortal woman being impregnated by a god was purely Hellenistic myth, not Hebrew midrash (like Semele was impregnated by Zeus to give birth to Dionysus, who she never delivered because Zeus incinerated her and he rescued Dionysus and sewed him into his thigh).

So, through a grievous mistranslation, virginity, which was never valued among the Jews, became the ascendent value in Roman Catholicism, and its monastic orders. Masturbation can be done clinically, like 'milking the Cowper's gland,' or it can become a neurotic, compulsive behavior. I do not personally subscribe to the spiritual value of semen as a carrier of more than prana/chi/qi, which IS a form of bioenergy, but which is not immediately translatable to Self-Realization or Self-Actualization (in spiritual and psychological models, respectively). Addictive sexuality is a disorder, an addiction. Sexuality in the service of Holy Matrimony (the Sexual Tantra of the West) is not an obstacle to Enlightenment and may even help forge one's moral development in the face of temptations outside of the marriage relationship. However, I did struggle with celibacy during the worst possible time of life - my 20s.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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