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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinetammytam
Stranger
Registered: 01/23/15
Posts: 29
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21946822 - 07/15/15 11:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

exactly, like if you put the ball in the cup, and then walk away and don't look at it for 24 hours, does the ball still exist in the cup that whole time?  Well, to keep the ball existing in the cup, it would take all the processing power in the universe, so it is easier just to make the ball not exist for that time period, if it is not being observed, to save the processing power.


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Offlinetammytam
Stranger
Registered: 01/23/15
Posts: 29
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: tammytam]
    #21946838 - 07/15/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I've got to go in a moment, gotta get this laptop back...back to solitude.  It has been amazing speak with all of you, you have no idea how much THis has meant to me...you have helped restore some of my sanity.  I hope I continue to exist, and can return tomorrow.  May be I'll even break out of here :smile:  ALl my gratitude

http://


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: tammytam]
    #21946839 - 07/15/15 11:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Wouldn't it be more logical to think it's been sitting there the whole time since it would take up processing power to blink it in and out of existance, as well as monitor you to know when to do so?


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
Howdy
I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States Flag
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21946850 - 07/15/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
Quote:

tammytam said:
If there is no one to observe my existence, am I real?




That's a very interesting thought, and one I've had about the universe, if nothing were ever around to know of it's existence or be aware of it, would it technically exist?




The universe does not require an observer to exist.  I believe Shroedinger proved this.




How so if you don't mind me asking, the only reason I have to ask if because all I know about shrodinger is his cat experiment

Which summed up to "Since we cannot know, according to quantum law, the cat is both dead and alive, in what is called a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and learn the condition of the cat that the superposition is lost, and the cat becomes one or the other (dead or alive). This situation is sometimes called quantum indeterminacy or the observer's paradox: the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that the outcome as such does not exist unless the measurement is made. "

By the way that is explained, it sounds like the universe by that logic wouldn't exist if nothing was around to be aware of it, since nothing would be around to even make a measurement and the conclusion was that it doesn't exist unless the measurement is made, but we still don't have an answer because since we can't know whether or not the universe exist outside of our brains/consciousness and since reality as we perceive it is false since we are limited by our senses and don't see the full picture and only how our brain filters the picture. Which is what makes me think consciousness creates matter rather then matter creating consciousness, but I'll cease to exist before ever finding out unfortunately.

Confusing to say the least, but I'll probably die never getting an answer that satisfies me as to whether the existence of everything is depenedent on awareness or not.


Edited by SirShroomsAlott (07/15/15 11:29 AM)


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
Howdy
I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States Flag
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: tammytam]
    #21946854 - 07/15/15 11:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Good luck to you friend, hope you make it out of that place someday.


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OfflineHayoxp
Enlil sucks cock


Registered: 06/05/15
Posts: 812
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: tammytam]
    #21946900 - 07/15/15 11:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:whatwhatwhat:

I think it's good that you stay at this institution.


--------------------
Enlil is trash, needs to end himself.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21946920 - 07/15/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's safe to say that a tree makes a noise when it falls, even if there's nobody around to hear it.  And also that there are unobserved parts of the universe that do indeed exist.

If the bacteria on your fingers can't be seen without a special tool to do it, is it actually there?  Yes..etc.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
Howdy
I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States Flag
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: Amanita86]
    #21946969 - 07/15/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I disagree, noise is a sense, it's nothing more then a vibration that our brain interprets as sound, if nothing is around to hear it, it would simply make vibrations, not sound. And as Shrodinger's experiement went, you can't even know a tree has fallen, if it hasn't been observed, it is both still standing and fallen until it is observed, it makes a sound and doesn't make a sound until it's measured or observed.

"And also that there are unobserved parts of the universe that do indeed exist." And you can claim this even though you haven't seen them because?

Bacteria you can't know exist...ever...even if you see it that is your brain again simply just interpreting it as real, which doesn't mean it is. A schizophrenic thinks their reality is real, meaning that like how you know bacteria exist, they know that demons exist or some other weird phenomenon that most people typically don't acknowledge as real but they still do, but we all see their reality as the fake one, I guess this is more of a philosophical argument than a scientific one that can be answered with studies, because you literally can not prove anything outside of yourself exist. And since perception of reality is heavily dependent on how the brain is wired and considering how every animal literally sees the world differently. I mean it truly makes sense it does, because we can make things to get rid of bacteria, medicine to fight against it, but in my mind that doesn't prove it to be so because it is still only my brain telling me it is.

It makes sense to assume it all is real or exist and to operate under the assumption that it is, but that doesn't mean it is, and doesn't cure my curiosity for the unknown. I personally think it takes consciousness in order for there to be anything, but I'm of course open to the fact I might be wrong, and probably am, but I also believe everyone else is wrong in everything they believe about the unknown so it doesn't bum me out too much.


Edited by SirShroomsAlott (07/15/15 12:01 PM)


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21947050 - 07/15/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Stranger things have happened I suppose..


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
Howdy
I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States Flag
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: Amanita86]
    #21947074 - 07/15/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I wish I could find it, I don't do my own argument any justice, but I came across someone well known who explained it very eloquently and in perspective much better then I did a while ago, I even believe it was a scientist/physicist who did the explanation of what I'm trying to convey but I can't remember who, I probably make it sound like a schizophrenics thoughts.

It might of been like Sam Harris or Neil DeGrasse Tyson or one of them.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21947091 - 07/15/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Naah I can see what you're saying.  I had a few salvia trips spell it out to me that pretty much everything is going on 'in' my head and that outside of it is an illusion.

Like VR machine or video game, it only dials up the parts you're interacting with, the rest just 'disappears'.  Atleast I think that's what you're getting at..?


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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OfflineSunnyD
WiZarD oF LoVe
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Registered: 04/29/13
Posts: 25,236
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: IISkuNkII]
    #21947099 - 07/15/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

if they wouldn't let me leave, id say fuck it and break out, however I could


I think mental institutions can be sick, espeacilly when they hold people that don't need to be there Disgraceful

:hug:


--------------------
:sunny::inlove::peyotespectrum::peyotespectrum::inlove::sunny:
And to everyone who thinks life is just a game,
Do you like the part you are playing?
This is the time in life I am living!
And I face each day with a smile :smile:
My music Library of Synthesizer goodness


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: SunnyD] * 1
    #21947116 - 07/15/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Without a doubt, that would be D name of D game.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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OfflineAcaterpillar
A little mad...
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: Amanita86]
    #21947137 - 07/15/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------
Aaa...E I O Uuu...A E I O Uuu..A E I O uh Uuu..
*Cough* *Cough*
Ooo...U E I O Aaa...U E I Aaa..A E I O Uuuuu...

At first sight, The Perfection of Wisdom is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality.


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
Howdy
I'm a teapot


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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: Amanita86]
    #21947148 - 07/15/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Basically yeah that's almost exactly what I meant, I'm not claiming that to be the correct answer to everything though or even slightly correct, just a philosophical argument that we can only think we know of this reality and that it's real without ever truly being able to.

I wouldn't attempt to try and convince other people it's truth or anything since it's only one of like a billion things this reality could be, I'm just into philosophy and letting my thoughts travel outside the norm, and OP and his situation made me re-question it.

This reality probably is just the way it seems, it's just boring to be confined to that.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21947185 - 07/15/15 12:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well salvia seems to be on your side.. I kind of go for the 'reality' is the hardware, brains are the software.  I think everyone here agrees you can 'hack' your mind like you can a program, leaving perception basically at just a balance of chemicals and whichever ones stay the longest determine what your 'normal' is..

It wouldn't surprise me if upon death you can 'wake up' out of this reality like you can a dream reality essentially putting you into another 'reality'.. I suppose just because a few aspects have been pretty common for what feels like awhile, it would be a fault to convince yourself that what's happening here is anything but all over the fucking map.  A.K.A, there's more than meets the eye, at play here..


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisibleThayendanegea
quiet walker
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: Amanita86]
    #21947309 - 07/15/15 01:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It sounds to me like op is in the right place....I wish someone would have asked about his past (drug use, etc.)He sounds pretty delusional.:shrug:


--------------------
Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

Albert Einstein


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OfflineHolliDaze
Big dabbaa
Male


Registered: 05/22/15
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: tammytam]
    #21947359 - 07/15/15 01:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

i feel you, im in a box in my own life/mind. hope you are well~~~
much love ur way


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21947421 - 07/15/15 01:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
Quote:

tammytam said:
If there is no one to observe my existence, am I real?




That's a very interesting thought, and one I've had about the universe, if nothing were ever around to know of it's existence or be aware of it, would it technically exist?




The universe does not require an observer to exist.  I believe Shroedinger proved this.




How so if you don't mind me asking, the only reason I have to ask if because all I know about shrodinger is his cat experiment

Which summed up to "Since we cannot know, according to quantum law, the cat is both dead and alive, in what is called a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and learn the condition of the cat that the superposition is lost, and the cat becomes one or the other (dead or alive). This situation is sometimes called quantum indeterminacy or the observer's paradox: the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that the outcome as such does not exist unless the measurement is made. "

By the way that is explained, it sounds like the universe by that logic wouldn't exist if nothing was around to be aware of it, since nothing would be around to even make a measurement and the conclusion was that it doesn't exist unless the measurement is made, but we still don't have an answer because since we can't know whether or not the universe exist outside of our brains/consciousness and since reality as we perceive it is false since we are limited by our senses and don't see the full picture and only how our brain filters the picture. Which is what makes me think consciousness creates matter rather then matter creating consciousness, but I'll cease to exist before ever finding out unfortunately.

Confusing to say the least, but I'll probably die never getting an answer that satisfies me as to whether the existence of everything is depenedent on awareness or not.



Shroedinger's cat was about pointing out the absurdities in some of the ramifications of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.  Let me pose this to you.  If the universe requires a sentient observer to exist then in what medium did the sentient observer evolve?  Heisenberg only applies to subatomic particles.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: i just need somebody to talk to [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21947429 - 07/15/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
I disagree, noise is a sense, it's nothing more then a vibration that our brain interprets as sound, if nothing is around to hear it, it would simply make vibrations, not sound. And as Shrodinger's experiement went, you can't even know a tree has fallen, if it hasn't been observed, it is both still standing and fallen until it is observed, it makes a sound and doesn't make a sound until it's measured or observed.

"And also that there are unobserved parts of the universe that do indeed exist." And you can claim this even though you haven't seen them because?

Bacteria you can't know exist...ever...even if you see it that is your brain again simply just interpreting it as real, which doesn't mean it is. A schizophrenic thinks their reality is real, meaning that like how you know bacteria exist, they know that demons exist or some other weird phenomenon that most people typically don't acknowledge as real but they still do, but we all see their reality as the fake one, I guess this is more of a philosophical argument than a scientific one that can be answered with studies, because you literally can not prove anything outside of yourself exist. And since perception of reality is heavily dependent on how the brain is wired and considering how every animal literally sees the world differently. I mean it truly makes sense it does, because we can make things to get rid of bacteria, medicine to fight against it, but in my mind that doesn't prove it to be so because it is still only my brain telling me it is.

It makes sense to assume it all is real or exist and to operate under the assumption that it is, but that doesn't mean it is, and doesn't cure my curiosity for the unknown. I personally think it takes consciousness in order for there to be anything, but I'm of course open to the fact I might be wrong, and probably am, but I also believe everyone else is wrong in everything they believe about the unknown so it doesn't bum me out too much.




Any tree that falls makes sound waves in the air whether there is a being to hear it or not.


--------------------


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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