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Biota
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Spiritual for the wrong reasons?
#21944941 - 07/15/15 01:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So I have a room mate who has become increasingly interested in spiritual awakening. This is great right?! I get to feel like a mentor to someone when I myself am still experiencing this same phenomenon. The only thing I'm worried about is that my room mate seems to only be "into" it because of the increasing popularity of the subject. In my mind I keep telling myself to just keep on supporting him through it because one day he might actually catch on to what is happening, however at the same time I feel like I'm feeding an ego driven fire and not actually helping. Has anyone else been in a similar situation? If so what did you do and what was the outcome?
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HalfOwlHalfShroom
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Biota]
#21946308 - 07/15/15 08:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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You should address it IMO. Spirituality and ego do not mix. Most people I know with his mindset have a "more conscious than thou" demeanor to everyone. Since all is one in the formless world of spirit, and since individual growth is STRICTLY for the purpose of growth as a whole whether acknowledged or not, it wouldn't go well.
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mt cleverest
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Biota]
#21946386 - 07/15/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Who cares what his motivations are? Everyone starts spirituality for the wrong reason. In fact 99.9 percent of spirituality is just a big ego trip. Just try supporting your friend without taking on a mentor role if you can. You guys have the same hobby now.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: mt cleverest]
#21948731 - 07/15/15 06:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mt cleverest said: Who cares what his motivations are? Everyone starts spirituality for the wrong reason. In fact 99.9 percent of spirituality is just a big ego trip. Just try supporting your friend without taking on a mentor role if you can. You guys have the same hobby now.
Well said.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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MushroomAlchemist
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Quote:
HalfOwlHalfShroom said: You should address it IMO. Spirituality and ego do not mix.
I agree, however, most who begin the process of spiritual awakening are common people with the same problems psychologically as the vast majority of those who begin their search. The motive doesn't really matter too much as long as he is beginning to "wake up" eventually his "ego" will be confronted if he is seriously studying spirituality. I'd suggest leading him as if he were a child; as he is spiritually. Take baby steps and eventually he will actually "wake up"
Namaste
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circastes
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: mt cleverest]
#21972406 - 07/20/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mt cleverest said: Who cares what his motivations are? Everyone starts spirituality for the wrong reason. In fact 99.9 percent of spirituality is just a big ego trip. Just try supporting your friend without taking on a mentor role if you can. You guys have the same hobby now.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Biota]
#21974996 - 07/21/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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One day my best friend who only has a mild interest in spirituality (we have some telepathy that he acknowledges) was getting to know a girl online and said to me that she's really into spirituality, does yoga, meditation, goes to retreats etc... so he said he may be getting into it more himself, i didn't say much except something along the lines that although it's great you don't really get into spirituality for a girl it has to be genuine
Increasing popularity of the subject? Where on earth do you live!?
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Edited by Chronic7 (07/21/15 10:09 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: mt cleverest]
#21980380 - 07/22/15 01:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mt cleverest said: Who cares what his motivations are? Everyone starts spirituality for the wrong reason. In fact 99.9 percent of spirituality is just a big ego trip. Just try supporting your friend without taking on a mentor role if you can. You guys have the same hobby now.
It's not your responsibility to evaluate his motivation. Spirituality may grow or it may not. The biblical expression for this process is to be found in this parable of the sower, wherein the seeds are insights that come from the word of God. The word = the Logos, not necessarily the spoken word alone, but insights that the spoken word have elicited. Regardless, not all insights take root in the soil of the psyche (soul).
"3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred." - Mark 4:3-8
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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NotSoWiseFox
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Reminds me of Steve Buscemi's character in this movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0970926/ if anything is possible.
But in more of a serious note, ego and spirituality do not mix! in the sense that if he ever wants to grow spiritually he will need to suppress his ego!
In my book which I'm revising and haven't even edited this part yet, I wrote a passage. (Note it's a fiction story about mental illness with spirituality intertwined, not to be taken factually) but here's a passage I find sort of relevant. A little background, The guy "Jeff" has foreseen his own death and is telling John he's about to die. Both characters are schizophrenic, but only Jeff knows that John is schizophrenic. Jeff keeps it to himself. This conversation happens.
John became a little scared. "This guy really was looney wasn't he?" Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he really did see the omens and the anticipiation and he was going to die soon. Jeff had made psychic evaluations before and it wouldn't be the craziest thing he'd done to predict his death. He wasn't going to Machiavelli it, he was simply going to die...before his time, John thought. He was a young man. "Aren't men supposed to live to 100" John asked Jeff. Jeff responded that it's silly to think men are suppose to live to 100. "You die when your life is fulfilled. There is no number you can put to measure the fulfillment of your life. My life has been more than fulfilled at 75. I've starred in movies and that was the least important thing I've ever done. I could do a little more humanitarian work....but I feel it's enough that it's time for paradise. Besides, the Raven, she's calling me and she is the ultimate omen and predictor of death. Not age. I could be 120, but if the Raven wasn't calling, I may not die. I could be 25 years old, but if the Raven was calling, it would be my time. It's your mindset more than your age that predicts your death. Age is not important.
""When do you think I will die?" John responded. Jeff couldn't say for sure. "I feel you're more enlightened than most, but not as much as you think you are. That is a warning sign that you may live a long time before you become enlightened. Thinking you are enlightened is the worst omen for becoming enlightened. I didn't think about enlightenment until I was damn near seventy years old. I just lived my life to the fulfillment that I could and then when it was time to be enlightened, I thought about it. You think about it too much." "But you said..." "I didn't say anything contrary to this. You think you're the head honcho, a big kahuna, don't you? You think you're Jesus. And for this you will pay, some way or another in your life. Maybe you can redeem yourself. Only through meditation can you redeem yourself. By not thinking, not worrying, not wanting and not desiring, can you redeem yourself. Then you can be enlightened. But the worst thing you can do is think you are Jesus. To claim you are enlightened. That is the anti-enlightenment. That's why Christ was pinned to a cross." "But Jesus preached love and treating others the way you would like to be treated. The greatest things a man could teach. He gave himself up to the cross for us. He saved us. He was sacrificed for the better of the planet Earth. Jesus was a prophet, the savior and just an all around great guy!" "It's a bunch of rubbish." John James could tell Jeff was losing it. "His final moments are turning him schizophrenic" he thought to himself. "
Edited by NotSoWiseFox (07/22/15 05:15 PM)
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Fluzzball
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: NotSoWiseFox]
#22003681 - 07/27/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I feel like spirituality comes to people for many different reasons. In a sense, many people look at it first as an ego experience. Before they are humbled by the practice their motive is self interest. That's okay though. Hopefully in time he can look at his ego and laugh in it's face.
An ego is a part of oneself and as the popular expression goes "know your enemies". The more time you spend analysing your ego the less power it has over you. So perhaps he needed to come from that place. Just continue to gently guide him along.
I've come a long way in the last year and I chuckle at what my old perceptions used to be regarding the topic. It's a fun and emotional journey! Spirituality is relative and always a learning experience regardless how you get into it!
-------------------- “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” - Albert Einstein ❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: NotSoWiseFox]
#22004528 - 07/27/15 01:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The ego is one's frame of reference, or as Buddhists might say, "the referential self." It grows from our organismic experiences The ahamkara or 'ego-sense,' develops over the first 6 months of life. Baby bites blanket. Nothing happens. Baby bites thumb and registers pain. Baby discovers toes. Pulling too hard causes pain. Ever-so-gradually, baby develops a sense of boundary, as baby discovers where [s]he 'ends' and the rest of the world begins, self-and other. Even the image of mother, when it vanishes behind a wall no longer results in fearful cries of abandonment. "Object constancy" has begun. Baby can maintain an image of mom in his/her mind. Hide a rattle under a blanket at 3 months and it instantly vanishes from memory as immediately it has from sight. At six months, baby pushes away the blanket to reveal the rattle. "Object permanence" is in place, hence the thrill of playing 'peek-a-boo.'
Baby has begun to discover external reality. Mom is not a mere extension of baby, but 'other.' The unconscious identification with mom from time in the womb is being severed. Six months after the umbilical cord separated their physical bodies, the psychic attachment is being stretched. Pretty soon, when baby can crawl, being unafraid that mom has vanished when she is out of sight, baby begins to explore-the-floor. The process of Individuation has commenced. Baby has begun to experience 'me-ness.' By 24 months, the "terrible twos" will commence. baby will discover the use of the word "NO." The ego is well on its way, serving the biological organism's needs and desires. Its egocentricity will continue to grow, peaking for most people in adolescence (which is characterized by egocentricity), unless one becomes a money and power-hungry human, whose emotional, social, and possibly moral development becomes arrested in adolescence, in which case [s[he just remains a spoiled child in a chronologically adult body. Only selflessness and self-sacrifice admits of some transcendence of the embodied ego. Special disciplines are required in order from one to experience one's Essential Identity that is 'other than' one's embodied ego or egoic-mind. The ego is not to be suppressed, but rather the ego's defenses, egocentricity, egotism and egoism need to be dissolved in Compassion for self and others. The matrix of awareness which gives rise to ego is consciousness itself. Like a lotus flower which begins its existence in mud, grows upward through turgid waters into more and more clear water and finally breaks through into the air and light, our ego needs to make a similar journey from unconsciousness, through greater consciousness only to Realize its identity in Superconsciousness where it dissolves in ego-death, AT death.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Ajahn Don
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The self is a construct. The ego is a superconstruct. Neither exists outside the mind, and nothing is permanent, therefore any idea of improvement is a fool's errand.
There is no self. When you can fully grasp it, and accept it, life gets better.
-------------------- "He's not altogether dense, but he's not altogether there."
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Ajahn Don]
#22020324 - 07/30/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ajahn Don said: There is no self. When you can fully grasp it, and accept it, life gets better.
Could you expand on this please Ajahn? This is a concept I have been wrestling with for some time, and I know that sometimes a few words from someone is all it takes to move ones understanding forward significantly.
I have recently found myself able to tap in to what feels to me like a universal consciousness, but I'm still very much trapped in the world of self. I'm sure there's a way to transcend this, I suspect by disciplined meditation practice which I perform every day, however I just can't 'grasp' it.. perhaps the problem is one of trying!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Ajahn Don] 1
#22020381 - 07/30/15 03:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Apparently, you do not exist, but paradoxically, something that acts in the world does, and it still identifies with its reflection in a mirror. The actions exacted by your facsimile self should be compassionate actions, otherwise libertinism degenerates into nihilism wherein there is no morality either. So, if the actions of your relative self are not governed by compassion all of the time, in time, then there is most certainly room for improvement. Impermanence does not translate into non-existence, and everything that exists is relative to the Formless Absolute which is no-thing in particular. Meanwhile, there IS "I and Thou," together in relative existence. Pleased to be in dialogue with you.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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DividedQuantum
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I think that sums it up very nicely, Mark.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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MarkostheGnostic
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-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:So, if the actions of your relative self are not governed by compassion all of the time, in time, then there is most certainly room for improvement.
I was going to pick up on this also, as I very definitely believe there is room for improvement (most thoroghly in the department you mention), however the question I asked seemed more pertinent. I definitely feel there is something to it (the 'no self' conundrum).
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22020556 - 07/30/15 04:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That was your 666th post, JSB.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Jokeshopbeard
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Damn, I was hoping to make that one somewhere else other than here! Who knows what offence I may inadvertently cause by making that post in a spirituality forum!
Thanks for being more on the ball than I am DQ! Peace!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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HalluciNate
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Biota]
#22020762 - 07/30/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Biota said: Spiritual for the wrong reasons?
What is wrong?
-------------------- We are here to assist, to teach you to evolve as we go through this process together. We give our own version of things only to bring you to a higher consciousness. No matter what situation you find yourself in, it is the power of your thoughts that got you there. It is also the impeccable belief that thought creates that will transform your experience and the planetary existence.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22020774 - 07/30/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was not here before my current birth. I will not be here after my upcoming death. Barely a blip in the stream of geologic and prehistoric time. 13.3 billion years behind my birth, unknown aeons ahead of my death. For all intent and purpose, I do not exist - for very long. If I predecease my wife, she will be the only human who would save the ashes of my mortal remains. When I suggested buying a cool Tibetan stupa-shaped urn she said, who would take possession of it? This all pertains to my existence as a historical entity - ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
So, what are we, treasured Eternal Ideas in the Mind of God that manifest as uniquely and briefly as every snowflake there has ever been, but remain somehow an Eternal Idea? Are we like every rain puddle that reflects the light of the sun or moon until it evaporates and ceases to exist, reflecting awareness that was never really our own possession but borrowed from God Who IS Awareness? Are we no more than impersonal members of a common ant colony that are crushed out of existence by the rolling passage of time? Are we gods or are we worms? The Bible says both in different places.
Better on my last nerves to practice dissociating, dis-identifying with my existence, and identifying with Being as prescribed by Eckhart Tolle and reified by some of my more profound psychedelic experiences wherein ego-death took place. Nevertheless, I will go back to reading William Barrett's book Irrational Man, before I see the new Woody Allen film entitled, Irrational Man. Quite possibly, Woody has appropriated the title of this very readable introduction to Existentialism. It was recommended to me by a former professor of philosophy with whom I have reconnected recently, and who was a student of William Barrett decades ago. You see, we must be able to embrace Samsara on equal terms with Nirvana - Existence and Being - simultaneously. Form and Formlessness, "Byss and Abyss" as Jacob Boehme put it. "No matter, never mind. No mind, never matter." - BE HERE NOW
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Hypnotoad420
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Tbh. Pink Floyd said it best. Cliché or whatever I don't care
All you TOUCH All you SEE Is all your LIFE Will ever BE.
Experience brings spiritualty but being spiritual does not bring experience, that is just who we really are shining through in a way we commonly identify with but shining through none the less. Personally, most people I feel if I mentioned anything metaphysical/spiritual to would have me ostracized and think I was straight from the looney bin so the fact he might be lucky enough IN THIS LIFE to actually wake up as people like to call it then damn that's great for him man and hopefully this girl shows him himself in ways he could never have without meeting her;so it could be his own realization manifesting and synchronizing to his reality. EXPERIENCE. without it there is nothing you should put your faith in without first having DIRECT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE, and never judge the experience of another because then you are just ego sword fighting and that is not good for anyone, sure some things you can take for granted that other people have figured out or failed at or killed themselves over but nothing is so untrue when it comes to your own self and who you really are and what you really are because we are all different but we are all the same. 
Don't be confused by your ego for its not its fault its ours ultimately but more sinister I believe society obviously in my eyes feeds the ego every chance it gets from shit garbage food, television, media, religion, schools, and just about every other avenue where you are told what to think, eat, do, wear, feel, etc. Our ego is doing what it does to survive so its up to us to reprogram ourselves and align ourselves with all of our realities and all of our selves not the illusionary/disempowering ones being projected on us. EASIER SAID THEN DONE.
Be the change you want to see in the world - Buddha
Namaste.
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Ajahn Don
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Re: Spiritual for the wrong reasons? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] 1
#22023274 - 07/31/15 07:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
Ajahn Don said: There is no self. When you can fully grasp it, and accept it, life gets better.
Could you expand on this please Ajahn? This is a concept I have been wrestling with for some time, and I know that sometimes a few words from someone is all it takes to move ones understanding forward significantly.
I have recently found myself able to tap in to what feels to me like a universal consciousness, but I'm still very much trapped in the world of self. I'm sure there's a way to transcend this, I suspect by disciplined meditation practice which I perform every day, however I just can't 'grasp' it.. perhaps the problem is one of trying!
I'm not sure I can explain it to another person.
1. One day in robes while doing walking meditation, I realized "who am I?" Who was breathing? Who was watching? Who was watching the watching of the breathing? Which was me? At the time it seemed very profound, even if it sounds silly when I repeat it. It just made sense.
2. When I was a monk, one day I realized I had NO needs. I had shelter, clothing, and food--all provided for me. I had no fear of loss. Everything else was want. It was just my mind messing with me. (Recently I read a book which blew my mind completely. Highly recommended. Sapiens, a brief history of mankind. Amazing.) We as animals have the need to survive and the need to pass on our genes. Period. Everything else is a construct. Whatever is consciousness, it is only perception. Wants drive us far more than need.
3. There is no fixed, permanent self. There is only this moment. The future and the past do not exist anywhere in the Universe. Just this moment. What I perceive at this moment is "who I am." There is no ego to defend. In a moment, everything will be different, and I'll adapt to that. No worries. Just see it all for what it is, and relax.
We make so much out of all this. It seems so important. When one realizes it isn't, that it's all in our minds, and that through meditation the voice in our heads isn't who we are, it just is so much easier. I have less confusion. I have far less worry. The sooner I let go of emotion and realize this moment is impermanent, I come back to serenity. Pain is inevitable, but suffering isn't. That's what I mean when I say it gets easier. If I take 3 mindful breaths, I return to equanimity, which should be the goal of my meditation practice, nothing more.
One thing that needs to be addressed. Letting go does not mean not caring. Once one lets go of the negative, the hate and anger and despair, there is more room for love and compassion and joy. There is no question that an absence of self releases ambition and greed from the picture. Morality becomes very simple--Do Not Cause Suffering.
We desperately want answers to the big questions, but there aren't any Universal Answers to Universal Questions. There is only this moment. The answers are individual and unique. We want "happily ever after." Impermanence. If there is nothing permanent, then there is going to be suffering and recovery. How quickly does the suffering pass? For me, in a moment.

Namasakan
Ajahn Don
I told you it's hard to explain! lol
-------------------- "He's not altogether dense, but he's not altogether there."
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