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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Agar to bulk without grain spawn?
#21942047 - 07/14/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So, i've come to loathe grain. All the preparation and bulkiness, its tedious. Its the one step i've come to dread in cultivation. I'm wondering if there is a way to go from agar to bulk sub without it. Massive amounts of liquid culture, perhaps? Any ideas?
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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poofterFroth
Feel Like A Stranger



Registered: 03/15/14
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#21942183 - 07/14/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, shit loads of fermented mycelium might work but seems more problematic then just nailing down a quick & easy spawn making technique.
I would suggest rolling up your sleeves and diving back into grain. Just keep at it and stay positive.
I've been having great success recently switching from using mostly jars to bags, filling them with dry grains - adding the correct amount of water- sealing them and PC'ing directly. Washing all those jars constantly was what I loathed...
I usually don't advocate for it, but you could always buy premade commerical spawn. But I can't justify the costs right now compared to just making it.
But I agree, soaking - simmering - straining - cooling - filling - ect... is taking the loooong way around and a total pain in the ass.
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forrest



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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: poofterFroth]
#21942314 - 07/14/15 02:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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actually, i stopped washing my jars every time, now i'm at the 4th cycle without having washed them, without any problems!
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Jenn
Supreme Leader



Registered: 04/27/15
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: forrest]
#21942491 - 07/14/15 03:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I will agree with you, grain is definitely a pain in the assholes. I feel your pain.
-------------------- Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: Jenn]
#21943126 - 07/14/15 05:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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yea, washing jars is the worst. i totally quit washing lids and rings a few months ago with no issues. guess i can quit washing jars, too. that's good news. i hate throwing away the bags. its bad enough how much plastic i waste making shiitake blocks.
i think one of my biggest issues is i keep changing grain, buying whatever is cheapest locally. i should just buy a pallet of my favorite grain and stick to it. i didn't have luck adding water to dry grain in the pressure sterilizer. i think when i build my atm sterilizer that i'll be able to do that. but my pc just produced mushy on the bottom and dry on top
thanks for the feedback, guys. at least i know i'm not alone in being annoyed by grain spawn
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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Gr0wer
always improving


Registered: 09/16/03
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#21944799 - 07/15/15 12:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Harvesting is the only part of mushrooms i look forwards too, that and cooking and eating em! Which i did today 
I've simplified my grain prep, i stick with WBS which is cheapest for me @ $11 for 40 lbs. I weigh out the dry grain 1800g for 7 jars and soak them in gallon pail of hot water sitting on my a/c condenser unit outside in the sun for more heat, in the winter ill probably use my mechanical room with the hot water heater and HVAC unit. The next day after dinner ill dump it into a 5 gal paint strainer mesh bag, dunk rinse once and add 90G gypsum and load my jars. This leaves me with only a mesh bag, measuring cup, and mason jar funnel to rinse off when i'm done. The worst part of it all is listening to a pressure cooker rock away for 90 mins while i'm trying to watch TV. This is why i hate open floor plans, that and noisy, shitty, dishwashers!!! I don't like the idea of bags either, i was raised super green back in the early 90s, why modern AMERICAN society doesn't stress things like this i have no idea. herman recycling is NOT an OPTION! I bought 20 bulk grow bags since my other hobby, brewing, left me partially handicapped after a glass carboy broke in my arms, lacerating my arm and ulnar (funny bone) nerve. Ive since realized a few oz of jar with grains is a whole world of hurt apart from 6 gallons of liquid in a 1/4 thick glass 10 lb carboy. I stick to Jars for grain prep and tubs, 3.5 or 5 gal pails for bulk. Washing pails is a pain but at least its not costing me $1 each time as bags do.
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bryanbzl
Spawn Runner



Registered: 03/11/07
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: Gr0wer]
#22050972 - 08/05/15 11:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gr0wer said: Harvesting is the only part of mushrooms i look forwards too, that and cooking and eating em! Which i did today 
I've simplified my grain prep, i stick with WBS which is cheapest for me @ $11 for 40 lbs. I weigh out the dry grain 1800g for 7 jars and soak them in gallon pail of hot water sitting on my a/c condenser unit outside in the sun for more heat, in the winter ill probably use my mechanical room with the hot water heater and HVAC unit. The next day after dinner ill dump it into a 5 gal paint strainer mesh bag, dunk rinse once and add 90G gypsum and load my jars. This leaves me with only a mesh bag, measuring cup, and mason jar funnel to rinse off when i'm done. The worst part of it all is listening to a pressure cooker rock away for 90 mins while i'm trying to watch TV. This is why i hate open floor plans, that and noisy, shitty, dishwashers!!! I don't like the idea of bags either, i was raised super green back in the early 90s, why modern AMERICAN society doesn't stress things like this i have no idea. herman recycling is NOT an OPTION! I bought 20 bulk grow bags since my other hobby, brewing, left me partially handicapped after a glass carboy broke in my arms, lacerating my arm and ulnar (funny bone) nerve. Ive since realized a few oz of jar with grains is a whole world of hurt apart from 6 gallons of liquid in a 1/4 thick glass 10 lb carboy. I stick to Jars for grain prep and tubs, 3.5 or 5 gal pails for bulk. Washing pails is a pain but at least its not costing me $1 each time as bags do.
Ditto on the plastic waste. I cringe when people talk about switching to bags with the sole reason being laziness... I too do jars to buckets and tubs. I find that bringing the buckets/tubs near the garden has made clean-up a breeze and really water efficient. I blast the inside of the bucket with the high pressure nozzle of my hose and then water my garden with the waste water.
-------------------- Cheers, bzl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children." conclusion: poor fucking children of the early 1900's.
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bryanbzl
Spawn Runner



Registered: 03/11/07
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: bryanbzl]
#22051007 - 08/05/15 11:29 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Also... to answer the OP.
Yes you can do agar to bulk. I have successfully dropped wedges in jars or Scotts Mulch (http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21744280) with great results. Once the jars are colonized I spawned them to bulk like I would with grains.
That being said... I still do grain jars. Thankfully I have switched from WBS to hard red winter wheat - a decade too late. It has cut down the grain prep shitty-ness exponentially and also cut down contamination rates to near 1/50-1/100. Highly recommend HRWW/Rye.
-------------------- Cheers, bzl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children." conclusion: poor fucking children of the early 1900's.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: bryanbzl]
#22051145 - 08/05/15 11:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Whole oats too. I switched from WBS to whole oats and basically cried at the ease of prep
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21121313
All you seriously do is boil them to hydrate. I don't rinse them at all, soak them or use gypsum, and they fall apart like sand. The outer hulls can take a lot of abuse, and hold the interior bran and starches very well. I basically forget about it during prep, and it boils over every time with no clumping, or any grains bursting due to the thick ass hulls. Also for me in animal feed stores it is $11 for 50 lbs...
Also agar > bulk is feasible. Wedges work. You can probably even make an LC or LI and squirt it into a bunch of bulk sub
Edited by Mad Season (08/06/15 12:04 AM)
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bryanbzl
Spawn Runner



Registered: 03/11/07
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: Mad Season]
#22055558 - 08/06/15 08:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: Whole oats too. I switched from WBS to whole oats and basically cried at the ease of prep
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21121313
All you seriously do is boil them to hydrate. I don't rinse them at all, soak them or use gypsum, and they fall apart like sand. The outer hulls can take a lot of abuse, and hold the interior bran and starches very well. I basically forget about it during prep, and it boils over every time with no clumping, or any grains bursting due to the thick ass hulls. Also for me in animal feed stores it is $11 for 50 lbs...
Also agar > bulk is feasible. Wedges work. You can probably even make an LC or LI and squirt it into a bunch of bulk sub
I was interested in the whole oats as well because I found a source for them cheap. Seems to be similar to the hard red winter wheat. super nice and soft on the inside but the outer hull is so nice and tough that the grains stay nice and fluid in the jars when you break up the spawn. I swear it takes 1 whack sometimes to fully break up the spawn jars.
I boil them as well. Just boil and then bump in a colander while hot and spoon into jars right away. seems like if there is any residual moisture it gets sucked up by the hulls after the PC run. I use the simmer water 1:4 with water for my LC'. This seems to be best because the mycelium gets adapted to the substrate right at the LC level, so the leap off is super fast. Now I use 5cc (experimenting with 10cc) of LC and I get full colonization in as little as 3 days with oysters/reishi/lions mane.
I have found the best way to test LC's for contamination is the smell test. I prepare a syringe and squirt a few CC into a round whisky glass and swish it around and give it a good examination with the nose. If it smells fruity or funky (anything except the smell of the LC before being sterilised) I toss it - no second thoughts. So far this has worked perfectly. If I have any contamination issues in the future from LC's I will go back to Agar for the first generation grain spawn jars before going g2g to future generations (1:10).
Also, for my LC I use agar to inoculate them.
-------------------- Cheers, bzl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children." conclusion: poor fucking children of the early 1900's.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: bryanbzl]
#22055598 - 08/06/15 09:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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For LC I always test the last syringe drawn on at least 3 plates of agar for cleanliness. My nose sucks.. , but I find with agar, it can tell you pretty damn quickly if the liquid is clean or not. It may take a few extra days, but the comfort of knowing it's clean is really nice. Afterwards you got some clean plates you can make more LC out of , or you can just straight drop it into spawn jars too.
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bryanbzl
Spawn Runner



Registered: 03/11/07
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: Mad Season]
#22062990 - 08/08/15 02:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said:

For LC I always test the last syringe drawn on at least 3 plates of agar for cleanliness. My nose sucks.. , but I find with agar, it can tell you pretty damn quickly if the liquid is clean or not. It may take a few extra days, but the comfort of knowing it's clean is really nice. Afterwards you got some clean plates you can make more LC out of , or you can just straight drop it into spawn jars too.
Absolutely! That reminds me that what I meant by the smell test is that I use it as a pretest before testing it on agar at least once for a new batch of LC.
-------------------- Cheers, bzl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children." conclusion: poor fucking children of the early 1900's.
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: bryanbzl]
#22110397 - 08/19/15 09:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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good stuff, guys. i just learned a new technique from Tradd Cotter where you sterilize a blender and water with your G2 grains, then infront of the flow hood, you pour somme grain spawn into the water and blend it up to break up the mycelium, then you pour 15ml into each of your G2 jars. it makes your first gen grain spawn go much further and the colonization time is much faster for G2 because of the greater number of contact points. I'm gonna give it a try.
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#22110416 - 08/19/15 09:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#22110543 - 08/19/15 10:19 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
knomadic_niki said: good stuff, guys. i just learned a new technique from Tradd Cotter where you sterilize a blender and water with your G2 grains, then infront of the flow hood, you pour somme grain spawn into the water and blend it up to break up the mycelium, then you pour 15ml into each of your G2 jars. it makes your first gen grain spawn go much further and the colonization time is much faster for G2 because of the greater number of contact points. I'm gonna give it a try.
you can do the same thing with petris. keep in mind you have to be super duper careful or everything will go tits up pretty fast.
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: drake89]
#22112200 - 08/19/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said:
Quote:
knomadic_niki said: good stuff, guys. i just learned a new technique from Tradd Cotter where you sterilize a blender and water with your G2 grains, then infront of the flow hood, you pour somme grain spawn into the water and blend it up to break up the mycelium, then you pour 15ml into each of your G2 jars. it makes your first gen grain spawn go much further and the colonization time is much faster for G2 because of the greater number of contact points. I'm gonna give it a try.
you can do the same thing with petris. keep in mind you have to be super duper careful or everything will go tits up pretty fast.
awesome! i will try that with petris! sounds like you can essentially go straight to G2 expansion levels that way without doing 2 rounds of grain
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#22112761 - 08/19/15 04:08 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
knomadic_niki said:
Quote:
drake89 said:
Quote:
knomadic_niki said: good stuff, guys. i just learned a new technique from Tradd Cotter where you sterilize a blender and water with your G2 grains, then infront of the flow hood, you pour somme grain spawn into the water and blend it up to break up the mycelium, then you pour 15ml into each of your G2 jars. it makes your first gen grain spawn go much further and the colonization time is much faster for G2 because of the greater number of contact points. I'm gonna give it a try.
you can do the same thing with petris. keep in mind you have to be super duper careful or everything will go tits up pretty fast.
awesome! i will try that with petris! sounds like you can essentially go straight to G2 expansion levels that way without doing 2 rounds of grain
i used 1-2 dishes per 5-6lb grain bag back when I did it. also I guess you learned that small mouth jars fit an oster blender blade. Well, now ya know! Since most blenders are not autoclaveable. I have a stainless 1L eberbach I've been trying to sell for a while if you're interested....
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: drake89]
#22112894 - 08/19/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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for how much? i guess what people do is put the blade and rubber ring in the jar and put a lid on to PC, and sterilize the oster base separately with lab sterilizer (iso, iodophor, w/e).
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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RogerSmith

Registered: 01/29/15 
Posts: 365
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: drake89]
#22113030 - 08/19/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said: I have a stainless 1L eberbach I've been trying to sell for a while if you're interested....
Why are you selling it? Isn't it useful?
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: RogerSmith]
#22113043 - 08/19/15 05:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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HOLY 800$$$ new? why?!
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#22113951 - 08/19/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
knomadic_niki said: for how much? i guess what people do is put the blade and rubber ring in the jar and put a lid on to PC, and sterilize the oster base separately with lab sterilizer (iso, iodophor, w/e).
you're right on. I think there may be an elevated risk of contamination cause it's damn near impossible to open and close the jar without touching the gasket. also, the gasket often leaks since it's not really made for jars.
Quote:
RogerSmith said:
Quote:
drake89 said: I have a stainless 1L eberbach I've been trying to sell for a while if you're interested....
Why are you selling it? Isn't it useful?
I don't make my own spawn anymore. I only grow shiitakes now and buy the spawn in. and expand it several generations on sawdust since it's part of my regular production.
Quote:
knomadic_niki said: HOLY 800$$$ new? why?!
that's for the explosion-proof model. This one retails for $200. The base was another $100. I'm asking $150 for both.
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: drake89]
#22114469 - 08/19/15 10:14 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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explosion proof, lol!
i'll give the jar method a shot and keep your offer in mind, thanks!
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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mcchieftan
Part man, part mushroom



Registered: 09/08/05
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#22115170 - 08/20/15 02:17 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm finding grain a lot less stressful with the atm. steriliser. Can you not make one like ours niki, super cheap? Its just a steel barrel sitting on electric kitchen hob and wired up to an STC1000. Shelves are steel grill. Rusty as hell but sterilises no problems and cheap as chips! For the 18kg of spawn we use a week I'd need to run the PC 3 times (and waste more time soaking etc...) Instead and I just load the bags with dry grain and the right volume of water and put them in with my sub...
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: mcchieftan]
#22116997 - 08/20/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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that is next on the to build list, after my fruiting room
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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bryanbzl
Spawn Runner



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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#22124079 - 08/21/15 07:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sometimes I am such a derp.. I forgot to mention something that has worked incredibly well for me. It is also simple and derp proof.
Agar to newsprint or Agar to cardboard. Then use the newsprint or cardboard as sheet spawn. I think if you are capable of contaminating newsprint or cardboard then you should throw in the towel lol
-------------------- Cheers, bzl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "From 1898 through to 1910 heroin was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children." conclusion: poor fucking children of the early 1900's.
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: bryanbzl]
#22132279 - 08/23/15 06:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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this method might work well for some of my remediation projects. thanks for sharing.
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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ghiajake
Myco-Viking


Registered: 01/10/13
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#22138379 - 08/25/15 12:51 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey niki, how ya been? Guess you went to Telluride, sorry I couldn't make it out this year. Next year I'll be out there and not volunteering, so I'll have time to catch all the talks and forays.
To answer the OP, I have a few questions for you. What PSI and time are you PCing your grains? And what contam/s are you getting?
After trying several different ways and grains I settled on red milo, which is $0.27/lb here. John Holiday recommended white millet we we hung out last year at Telluride. Small, evenly rounded grains are great. They are real easy to hydrate, and to bust up in the jars once colonized. I dump my dry measured dry grains in a 5 gal bucket, boil 2-3 gal of water on the stove (with a dusting of coffee), then pour the boiling brew over the milo and seal the bucket lid. This next part is dangerous, so wear gloves to protect from steam!!! Rock the bucket until the lid pops up from pressure, then burp the lid and press out the air. Do this a couple times until it stops building pressure, then make sure the lid is sealed good and let it sit for 24-36 hrs. If you got a tight seal, the bucket should suck in as it cools, creating a vacuum inside.
After soaking I strain the grains through a sieve-bucket I made (saving some of the soak water for agar nutrient broth), then pour about 4 gallons of HOT tap water through them to wash the grains. Let that strain for a few minutes (or one bowl of green ), then dump the grains onto a beach towel on my kitchen table. I spread the grains out thin and evenly and let the excess moisture steam off. Load jars and PC. I'm at 452' elevation, so I PC at 16-17 psi for 90 minutes.
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: ghiajake]
#22140740 - 08/25/15 12:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have been using local wheat lately which i hate. i soaked 24 hours, then simmered til al dente, then rinsed, jarred, and PC for 2 hours at 20-22 psi (6000'). ended up with bacteria that would only become a problem if jars got old before they were spawned or expanded. i never had an issue with the bacteria in the final substrates, though.
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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ghiajake
Myco-Viking


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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#22141898 - 08/25/15 05:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't like the larger grains. And every time I simmer grains instead of doing like I normally do I get a bacterial contam at least.
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mcchieftan
Part man, part mushroom



Registered: 09/08/05
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: ghiajake]
#22144301 - 08/26/15 01:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not to gloat but reading about your strife makes me so incredibly thankful that I don't have to do any of that any more! Make a budget bulk steriliser your priority, you won't regret it!
Theoretically I could prepare 60kg of grain in mine. That would take me 20 pressure cooker runs (20 x grain soaking, boiling, draining, drying loading.....)
Good luck
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knomadic_niki
A mile high



Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 1,275
Loc: 6200' Colorado
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Re: Agar to bulk without grain spawn? [Re: ghiajake]
#22591442 - 11/29/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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sorry, kind of dropped off shroomery for a few months 'cause of school and work. i'm almost out of wheat, so i think i'm going to look for a source of millet or bird seed when its done. i like the results better. and after i finish building my fruiting room, i'm totally going to build an atm sterilizer. i got a big 3x3 stainless box from a friend that might make a good chamber and a metal barrel for heating water. got the parts, just need to make a plan and a welder friend.
-------------------- My trade list In search of sporeless oyster cultures
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