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Registered: 01/14/15 Posts: 3,570 |
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from reports:
both of em can induce OOBE, entities, places and the experience doesnt last long but dmt can show alot of geometrical visuals. yea i know they are not purely recreational but which is more euphoric? what is the major differences between em?
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Registered: 10/16/99 Posts: 3,493 Loc: world's shroom c |
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DMT is more euphoric... salvia is awkward and bizzare
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Chemical Researcher Registered: 04/07/06 Posts: 3,379 Last seen: 8 months, 29 days |
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Salvia is like the Ketamine of psychedelics. It gives weird body sensations like forces pulling you in directions. It's a really weird experience. For me it splits the universe in half and I get stuck in the void.
DMT is a lot more mushroom-like, just way more powerful. -------------------- Until the 20th century, reality was everything humans could touch, smell, see, and hear. Since the initial publication of the charged electromagnetic spectrum, humans learned that what they can touch, smell, see, and hear... is less than one millionth of reality. --------------------------------
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n00b-sabot Registered: 08/24/13 Posts: 9,521 Loc: FREE PSYCHONAUTI Last seen: 2 hours, 25 minutes |
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salvia is dark and scary
dmt is peace and light. -------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Professional contam grower Registered: 07/09/15 Posts: 154 Last seen: 1 month, 27 days |
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what if you smoked both? my theory is your face would melt.
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n00b-sabot Registered: 08/24/13 Posts: 9,521 Loc: FREE PSYCHONAUTI Last seen: 2 hours, 25 minutes |
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i've HEARD that the dmt wins.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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They are totally different but share some commonalities at least on paper.
Both share the curious 'break through' phenomenon and have rabbit holes that often require quite a bit of burrowing to find. Both seem to take one to some sort of universal machine and will leave you questioning the validity of pretty much everything. They are both 'real' experiences, and almost impossible to dismiss as mere hallucination at least while traveling. They are both relatively harmless with awesome potency although despite the fact that salvia scared the shit out of me DMT was way more intense. Would be interesting to hear what others say about this. Did you find salvia to be anywhere near as intense as the universe explode and imploding intensity that comes with DMT? For myself I didnt though I experienced almost complete ego loss with salvia and almost none with DMT. DMT is a psychedelic Salvia is not (at all). You'll understand this much better if you have experienced for yourself what a truly psychedelic drug is, in comparison to one that is not, as the dictionary definition of 'psychedelic' and many hallucinogens can often seem almost identical on paper (mind maifestingetc). There's another thread going right now in which I spent quite a bit of time talking about the differences between DMT and salvia, and despite how utterly different they are in how we experience them there is something about them that is very similar. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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DMT is more profound, with far deeper implications.
Salvinorin-a is a kappa opioid receptor agonist, so it comes with this prickly feeling of rushing water running over my body. With salvinorin-a I feel "fuzzed out", I don't feel I'm mentally functioning properly. I encounter entities more often on salvinorin-A but they are often whacky, Looney-tunes cartoon like elf beings... Here's an experience report from salvinorin-A: I had just obtained the salvinorin-a and went into a tunnel where I often smoke marijuana, it's an isolated place, no worries about the public or police. I loaded a fairly large bowl of the salvinorin-a infused leaf into my marijuana pipe and cashed it in a single hit... The bricks on the wall began to form a pyramid like structure in my visual field, a rush of cold pins and needles moved over my skin as I slowly lost contact with my body and the outside world, the pyramid structure became more defined, it was an Aztec pyramid, with vines and jungle surrounding it. I looked around I saw I was surrounded by small creatures, they were shaped like upside down horse-shoes or like a lower-case letter "n", they had feet at each point of the "n" shape of their body, large black eyes, and funny little arm like appendages that were warped around a stick which was resting across their "shoulders" with a bucket full of water on either end of the stick. All these little beings were carrying these pales of water up the pyramid steps. The communicated in this squeaky high-pitch ossiclation of frequencies which were packed with telepathic significance, I followed them to the top of the pyramid, where a river was running down the back, they were all dumping their buckets f water into this river, which I jumped into, I felt wet, and blind, and as if I were falling...then I came back to baseline reality. Another time I smoked in my friends garage, after I exhaled I saw a multicolored river pouring over the white van that was parked next to me, this river type thing began at the top of the shelf and at its mouth sat several of these whacky, goofy, constantly moving and jumping and bouncing and making noise elf type creatures, all their bodies had odd shapes, one was shaped similar to a pipe wrench, the other was several odd angles all intersecting, it's hard to describe them, but I realized they were throwing this color changing rainbow like stuff into the "river" that was pouring down the shelf over the vans windshield and roof like wind, and out the garage door, these creatures were again squeaky and load. They having their own insane party of coloring this river... Again, very very bizzare, but not life changing or very meaningful ..this is a quick description of my first DMT experience for comparison: the first time I smoked DMT it was 200mgs yellow crystal on top of high-grade marijuana, I cleared it in a single hit. I remember feeling like I was at the bottom of a foggy mountain with dirt roads, I was overcome with an intense feeling of panic and deja-vu, I felt like a lost child, everything I knew about who I was or my life or earth seemed like a distant dream, like I dissolved out of existence, I interpreted this as dying, I knew that I was dead, and I was emotionally overwhelmed while confronting the event of my death....I could not tell if I was breathing or not, I would take air in, but couldn't feel it, then noticed a pain in my chest, a giant mantis like being had its claws in my chest, it proceeded to tear open my chest and stomach removing all my organs and insides, I was about to go into shock when I saw a bright green light flash over my shoulder, it nearly hit me, it then became a beautiful geometric object, morphing and color changing, like a jewel from hyperspace, the mantis then put this object in my torn up body, he began to make billions of these objects, each one unique and radiating beautiful colored light ans he filled my body with them, then I was sealed up and propelled into an orange light where I was resurrected...then I felt as if I was being pushed through a membrane, I was being born....then back to reality....those who were there said in reality I curled up into a ball and began to cry for 20 minutes, I was wondering why my face was wet, because it felt like I had actually just went through being born...any way the immense deep spiritual and psychological implications of this experience left me for ever transformed, reborn as a new person entirely, it was the single most meaningful thing that has ever happened to me. ...where as with salvia, it was bizzare, and I learn from it, but it was nothing like DMT, it lacks the meaning of experience and deep implications, I smoked salvia long before I smoked DMT, my salvia experiences didn't have the effect that DMT did in Any way, so while they may both produce quick and intense psychedelia with out of body experiences and entity contact, I still feel there are some core differences which separate these compounds from one another, and in many ways they are nothing alike. salvinorin-a was inducing bizzare, out of body type experiences, it completely lacked the transformative profound transcendental qualities of the DMT experience. Though I still find salvinorin-a to be useful for certain types of exploration, it doesn't seem real, it's easy to accept the experience as chemically induced, you don't feel sober. While with DMT I generally feel exactly the same as I did before I broke through only the world around has been transformed, it's hard to accept DMT as a simple chemical reaction in the mind, it's real, whatever that means, DMT is very real. Keep in mind this is just me, others may feel differently. (I wrote the experience reports as quickly as possible to save space on the thread, in reality every experience was much more detailed, I could fill pages regarding any of these events be them DMT or salvia, I know the shorter you cut your stories the less effective they become, these experiences are very hard to translate into human language as it is, so you must be as descriptive as possible, but here was not the time or place, I hope I made the point effectively with out removing so much detail that they become in effective as examples.) -E. Borodin
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Rocky mountain hood rat Registered: 02/09/15 Posts: 8,939 Loc: ation |
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Salvia makes me perspire SO much that the experience is uncomfortable. In fact, it's uncomfortable on many levels.
It's an erratic experience that boggles the brain and definitely does not let you absorb the most you can from the experience. It's rough and almost abusive, in my opinion. DMT is by far more profound, euphoric, and enlightening. I used to be a HUGE advocate of salvia until I found DMT. I turned my back on salvia forever the very first time I smoked DMT. I can procure it in large amounts and the experience is so far above any other psychedelic, it's hard to explain. Only others who have actually smoked it and have had a legit breakthrough understand what DMT brings to the table.
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Registered: 12/30/14 Posts: 1,969 |
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you guys that dont like it have never smoked plain leaf and dosed properly. i seriously think the extracts are for people who are VERY experienced with this substance yet first timers use it commonly. that is why people freak out, this substance is POTENT. You can find comfort in the experience if done right.
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Quote: Salvia feels psychedelic 95% to me, almost like a normal psychedelic Just no stimulation, but I don't need my emotions stimulated to feel psychedelic It's the strongest psychedelic in the world iirc, or else it's DMT. It's strong enough to take you out of your room everytime you take a puff of 20x It will also make your carpet/hands look awesome like LSD Thoughts will change after the trip, either good or bad, it makes everything new to look at often too like traditional psychedelics, so you notice the beauty of nature or ordinary household items ;-) It formats the brain in some way, very very hard to describe ... not sure what it does, but it does something Usually changed thoughts... , can add confusion too Ordinary psychedelics can also add confusion. Salvia is neither good or bad, it's very hard to describe as it doesn't change your emotions like ordinary ones.. Out of body, weird pulling, melting skin, morphing into objects, talking to your couch and people who are not there, time travel to your past, is very normal - people appearing you know who are not there, and you talk to them
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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The real great thing about Salvia is it's the coolest social psychedelic I've tried ever, makes me laugh 1000x harder than on the best weed cookies/the best weed/the best mushrooms
You laugh for like 5-10mins in a row, you cant stop, very funny ;-P Everytime It's just epic, good medicine that way
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Rocky mountain hood rat Registered: 02/09/15 Posts: 8,939 Loc: ation |
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I had a lot of experience with salvia. A LOT. I never had any sort of freak out from smoking salvia, but It was uncomfortable,
the profuse sweating is uncomfortable on my skin as well and it takes away from my experience. DMT is just, for me, so far beyond anything salvia has brought to my table. Not saying it is not a great molecule or psychedelic. Just my opinion.
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Registered: 12/30/14 Posts: 1,969 |
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oh i see the sweating thing never bothered me at all with salvia.
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Rocky mountain hood rat Registered: 02/09/15 Posts: 8,939 Loc: ation |
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I would come down from an experience completely soaked. And it's just fuzzy in nature to me.
DMT is crisp, clean, and so far out of this dimension it's difficult to comprehend. I had smoked a lot of salvia and eaten a lot of mushrooms and L before I smoked DMT the first time. I thought I knew what psychedelics were about and what they had to offer to me mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally. I was wrong
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Yes I agree with 'bizarre' fits Salvia very well
I once had a pulling of ropes, then floating on a river experience there I once had a becoming a windmill experience and many other weird objects... It will take any random memory in your subconscious and make you that, I went to another space where I could walk around and touch the walls, I kept returning to this parking lot when I smoked it in my couch It's very cold in this parking lot.. If you lay in bed and smoke it, remember to bring extra clothes, I keep returning to this salvia space/parking lot :-P and it's always pretty cold out there, I didn't expect to go outside when I sat in my living room but everytime I am outside when I smoke 20x... Like going out your door and out to a parking lot, you can walk around there and touch and talk to people there Just no jacket on... so cold
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Others have reported becoming a fish and thinking they were drowning
![]() There's like 100 videos of Salvia on youtube, very interesting, very interesting molecule too, I like it, but it will scare you away from smoking it more often than once a year or so likely That scaring away can be a good thing, a psychedelic that makes you crave it is usually not a good one
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: I argree, with salvia there is this uncomfortable skin sensation that I always interpret as a river washing over me...strangely enough all my salvia hallucinations involve rivers, salvia even introduced itself to me as "the water teacher"...any way mentally I feel fuzzed out, it's obvious you ingested a drug, and it's difficult to generate or obtain gnosis or meaning from the experience...without the profound implications and lessons the ordeal doesn't seem worth it, and DMT is an ordeal as well, but it's a transformative, spiritual, and deeply meaningful ordeal, while salvia is more like mental fireworks, it's a great show, but it's hard to derive much from it. I have quidded raw leaf, I have tried extract of every strength, I have extracted my own from leaf, the problem is with me not the molecule, it doesn't mix with my intellectual constructs properly, it doesn't seem to induce intellectual stimulation or divine information, it's uncomfortable physically and mentally. ....I'm not saying any bad about salvia, it can be great for what it is, just "what it is" is not for me... I'm for sure a DMT person, though I don't regret using salvia. Salvinorin-a is a kappa opioid receptor agonist, it shares no relation to any psychedelic (except THC) chemically, it also shares no relation to any endogenous neurotransmitter, where DMT, LSD, mescaline, psilocin, psilocybin, harmine, etc..are all either tryptamines or phenethylamines, neurotransmitter similar and are alkaloids as well...salvinorin-a contains no nitrogen atoms, it's not an amine or alkaloid, it's a terpenoid hydrocarbon...it's an interesting molecule in psychedelia, as well as its history, it's suspected that salvia divinorum is a cultivar, and didn't exist in nature, it's bizzare all the way around... -E. Borodin Edited by Coincidentiaoppositorum (07/15/15 08:23 AM)
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Rocky mountain hood rat Registered: 02/09/15 Posts: 8,939 Loc: ation |
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Could not have said it better myself.
These are my exact thoughts on salvia as a psychedelic experience.
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Strangest Registered: 02/22/11 Posts: 6,565 Loc: the universe, th Last seen: 6 years, 6 months |
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Quote: To me, it feels like I am a drop of water dripping down the stem of a flower.
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Quote: @ to OP asking about euphoria/no euphoria on Salvia: Well Salvia is rarely if ever euphoric... , I've never felt euphoric except 1-2 times on it and those 1-2 times was when I smoked in social setting, kept laughing, and it hurt like hell too and kept laughing still So you laugh from pain, not exactly euphoric But maybe the same way as mushrooms, you laugh from pain there too... , laugh from not understanding, from going TOO deep etc. So the difference seems to be no euphoria on Salvia usually, it's not like traditional psychedelics there at all I've tried lsd,mushrooms,25i,and a DOx once too iirc , all give stimulation There's no stimulation on Salvia - like an awake lucid dream, things vanish in air in front of you, no emotions There's no euphoria , no joy emotions , and to bring anything back is almost impossible (like a lucid dream... you cant bring stuff back there either usually) So if you want euphoria Salvia is not for you likely, except in social setting, you may get the best laugh of your life and feel a lot of confusion/love at the same time gives the same love and new vision of room,yourself and everyone you see as other psychedelics for me You may fall in love with your washing machine if you are not careful (any object you may fall in love with, due to its beauty when you come back) A roll of paper may be beautiful after you come back , just like ordinary psychedelics The only difference is just Salvia feels like a step up.... like a highdose trip each time So it changes you as much too , you don't get back from high doses without changes to the 'ego' (perceived self) usually Another reason I can only smoke salvia once every 1-2 years or so, but I always wondered why I didn't smoke it earlier It is truly epic in social setting, as you can see on youtube vids, if you know a few people who are scientific in their minds(not scared types) Best laughs of my life... So in all, the only euphoria is when you come back and all is new, every object in your room is new, yourself is new, everyone you know is new. Your thoughts are new. + The laughs that can be very very enjoyable, happens each time for me Better than weed cookies that way IMO , it's a trip you'll never forget
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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It felt 95% like a good LSD trip for me when I tripped with a friend, but only if you trip with a sitter that can keep cool and not mess with you
You need a professional sitter for Salvia... not one that asks 'are you ok' , that messes you up Really like this way of Salvia tripping for sure, might even be my fav psychedelic this way The perception of the world, carpet, walls, music, yourself, others shifts almost exactly like a normal trip for me... Felt 100% psychedelic for me each time , and a very cheap psychedelic.. $1 a trip or so The only problem is the risk of overdoing such an intense and cheap psychedelic...
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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The last really cool thing about Salvia is, if you think your normal shrooms/Lsd are psychedelic, you've seen nothing yet
Just wait till you try Salvia.... it will dissolve the room each time, like a waking dream send you back and forth in time etc... it's always a step up, the intensity can seem intimidating.. (I used to be a fan of high dose LSD trips, could never take too many hits, but Salvia is a step up from that... much more psychedelic each time, blows minds each time)
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Registered: 12/30/14 Posts: 1,969 |
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lessismore you seem to be just trying to warn people but you can honestly just get a small feel for this substance by putting a little bit of leaf in a bowl and starting there. beginners should just simply try to stay away from the extracts. lessismore i appreciate all the info but you sort of add this hesitation and anxiety with all the warnings when i seriously have yet to have experienced anything to make me fear this substance. i get more of a "fear" reading "bad" trips than i do when actually experience the drug itself.
i understand your caution but it seems like a bit much IMO. also you seem to be liking it more since ive first started reading on here.
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Strangest Registered: 02/22/11 Posts: 6,565 Loc: the universe, th Last seen: 6 years, 6 months |
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Quote: I don't know what you're talking about. Salvia has always been extremely euphoric for me. For me, salvia just feels right.
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Depends on the person I suppose, I was speaking about how it doesn't induce the same 'emotional disturbances' as a normal trip usually
It's very hard to describe really... , very similar and still not quite Very psychedelic for sure, people who say it's not psychedelic should try it again It's the most psychedelic psychedelic I've tried for sure, and it has some/many of the same afterglow effects. It's harder to bring back stuff unless you know it, but so is it with them all I have had many spiritual revelations since taking psychedelics, and Salvia is not excluded there, seems at least as good - just harder to define what happens. All the changes are after the trip, never revealed in the trip usually for me. It may open the mind, a lot, to new ways of viewing the world/yourself like any psychedelic. Very high awareness sometimes, can be very enjoyable too, and can bring big confusion as well (growing spiritually is not always pleasant...) The thing I don't like about Salvia is it can cause a foggy head sensation that can persist for days, just like weed (but unlike any other psychedelic, LSD doesn't do this for me). That can be very unpleasant for me, causes me to stay away from Salvia generally Then there is the confusion too that can last weeks sometimes, but maybe I'm just unlucky with it Rarely do I feel it increases clarity, it may increase awareness at the cost of confusion Edited by lessismore (07/15/15 10:53 PM)
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Quote: The day I find out if Salvia can cause a pure egodeath is the day I find out if I can recommend it to people :-) Egodeath is not for everyone that's for sure It may change lives around 180. But then again so can weed(it can probably cause egodeath too) Weed and psychedelics are really only for certain people it seems They can do much damage to some people when overdone I wonder how many of those school kids tripping Salvia 80x extract on youtube come out of it intact?
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: I did it quite a bit from 5x to 25x and I couldn't tell you how many times I used it. Powerful yes to the point of scaring me off it, but when I say 'psychedelic' I mean really in the sense of LSD, mescaline, DMT and those with the rainbow colored visuals that make one trip as I never did on salvia. I guess its a semantic divergence of opinion but for me salvia was in a class all on its own, and so utterly different to the other psychedelics I have tried that I honestly would find it confusing to place Salvia in the 'psychedelic' family. It just didnt remind me of any of them. Salvia unlike any psychedelics confused me to the point of not knowing who, what, why, or when I was, but maybe I just haven't seen the psychedelic side of it. All I can go on is personal experience and my own definition of what psychedelic actually means. To me it is not or was not psychedelic. The closest thing that I ever tried to salvia was actually huffing solvents when I was a teen, with those crazy 'dreams' that carry you away without you knowing where you have gone. Only much more confusing and terrifying. I tend to see it more as a hallucinogen unique to itself. Would be interested to know by what criteria do you yourself judge it to in fact be psychedelic? -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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My definition of psychedelic is hallucinogenic
But Salvia is extremely hallucinogenic, psychedelic doesn't guarantee any thing (i.e. doesn't guarantee mind expansion which they often do) So a hallucinogen without guarantees. Salvia can give me the classic LSD visuals in a few ways. Becoming one with room. Morphing room. Morping objects. Objects taking form as other objects. My hands repeating into infinity. My hands becoming other objects. My arms becoming the walls of another room, now I am in a new reality that I can walk in. Swirling carpet / sliding carpet in intense ways. Geometric patterns in carpet/objects/my hands/arms etc. It's like a waking lucid dream... feels so real LSD can feel 100% real too each time, to the point you cannot tell it is visuals, just take a high dose (extremely high dose, 400ug+) Same for shrooms, at a point your visuals become real. The good effects of classical psychedelics I have yet to experience on Salvia, it hasn't appeared meaningful to me yet. But LSD didn't appear meaningful to me either before 50-100 trips or so where it lead to an awakening suddenly. It seems we have to learn to let go with any psychedelic before we even remotely can start to understand the molecule. I haven't learned fully to let go with Salvia yet though, no breakthrough yet, except being transferred out of body each time. Psychedelics also have dangers, and Salvia has its dangers. The danger i.e. is that you can smoke it everyday or several times a week and disassociate completely from this reality. It will take a long time to regain consciousness after a trip. It can often feel like a high dose mushrooms/LSD in that regard. It can expand the mind too like classical psychedelics, like weed etc. But how do we classify psychedelics? - many drugs can expand the mind is it the drug experience, or is it the drug? As many people claim weed has expanded their minds as psychedelics
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mountain grunt. Registered: 07/16/12 Posts: 1,097 Loc: on a hill in a p Last seen: 4 months, 20 days |
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Ive always explained the two as being very similar yet on opposite ends of a spectrum. Both are intense, but as stated earlier in the thread dmt is on the light side as salvia is way off on the dark side. Ive had some wild rides in salvia world.
-------------------- If you want to achieve greatness Stop asking for permission.
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Don't smoke Salvia while listening to Psykovsky dark psytrance ;-)
It's not pleasant lol It mindfucked me into my walls and couch, hurt like hell, yet I still laughed. Got squeezed into the wall and stuck in the wall Can be dark :-)
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: Yeah we definitely just dont share the same definition of what a psychedelic is buddy. I know this is a very subjective thing. I used to define psychedelic as 'mind manifesting' as we are kind of supposed to but I began to find this definition very problematic as so many regular hallucinogens that are nothing like each other also manifest the mind and will cause you to hallucinate. So for me LSD is both a hallucinogen and a psychedelic, but salvia only a hallucinogen. I'd place it more in dissociative catagory than I would psychedelic to be honest as although obviously you wouldn't go under the knife on salvia, it did in me produce a kind of disociative experience! Even psychedelics I feel, should be dived into two distinct groups with DMT and mushrooms (etc) being on one side and the mescaline and LSD (etc) experience on the other. Explaining the differences is time consuming and something I have attempted too many times on the shroomery already to make the writing enjoyable, but for brevitys sake, a psychedelic to me is something instantly recognizable as being at least related to other very familiar and distinct molecules within its own family (psychedelic). I dont consider cannabis to be a psychedelic and class that too as a distinct hallucinogen. I know I must seem a bit pedantic here but I feel that when communicating together, in order to differentiate between these various experiences we have to draw the line somewhere and clearly define our terms. For me its something like this. Psychedelics Mescaline DMT LSD LSA etc Dissociatives Ketamine, DXM, PCP Deliriants Scoplamine, atropine, (datura, nightshade etc) Hallucinagens All of the above, Cannabis, Salvia etc The halluninagen catagory encompasses every distinct chemical and group but I also use this catagory mainly to lump together molecules that are not so easily grouped but I dont feel should be placed into catogaries that they often confusingly are, as with cannabis being placed with the psychedelics for example. I dont know quite where to place salvia and cannabis I just dont feel it intuitively correct to lump them in with psychedelics. This is just really though how my own mind diffrentiates between all of these experiences, I know where most of them go, but something like salvia at least for me belongs all by itself as as being utterly unique. Sir Nerd-ington out! (ha I dont take all this shit as seriously as it might seem! Just explaining myself!) -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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There's no difference, only to certain minds
Other minds can get the same effect on any of these drugs, lsd,mescaline,dmt,salvia,shrooms My lsd and shrooms trips are 95% similar in visuals and content, and learning, and what I tend to do in them I wouldn't be able to tell them apart except for bodyload.. If you say mind manifesting, how they manifest depends on your culture so if you're a scientist you want to categorize them If you're a hippie it doesn't matter which one you take, they all get you high and can give the same kinda high often If you're a shaman you can get there on any of these tools, weed too which can also be very psychedelic If you're a buddhist you can get there on any of them too incl weed, or without them Mind manifesting to me means that the mind can produce the experience with/without the drug. Any any of these drugs may give the same experience, depending on your SET (previous experience) They all show your subconscious it seems... they're unpredictable in many people
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: You mean in regards to salvia and things like LSD? I just feel that 'mind manifesting' is too broad a description to apply if you need to differentiate between what can be very specific experiences. If you tell me salvia and LSD are both psychedelics to be honest the word loses all meaning completely and I might as well just say hallucinogen. I understand it might be difficult for some to differentiate between LSD and DMT etc (they are all psychedlics) but not with something like salvia which needs IMO to be in a clearly defined group of its own. Thats all I am saying. I'm pretty confident I could tell the difference between LSD and DMT though mainly because of the hyperspace aspect. I've never had entity contact with LSD of the same kind I have had with Shrooms and DMT. Not to say I havent had Godly experiences with demons and all kinds of delusions with LSD it just wasnt the hyperspace dimension which for me is very distinct. I do agree though and as I said in another post DMT and Salvia do share many similarities and in some spookey way do seem to be linked somehow. -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Aint seen hyperspace and entities in free air? take more LSD... been there done that
500-1000ug is your dose There's nothing that cannot happen on a high dose LSD, nothing. You can go to hyperspace everytime and you feel like floating upwards/flying in the air. I would say any psychedelic can be equally intense to me, incl weed, and even edible weed. Salvia is no more intense than weed for me. Weed can be very intense psychologically. Some just measure intensity by visuals, some psychedelics are "usually" more visual, but not always I have had 500ug+ LSD with few visuals before, sometimes you get no visuals at all Few people just try a -high dose- of LSD, or a -high dose- of weed. Grav bong, or bucket to smoke out of, then take 3-5 hits of the strongest stuff you can get, then you will agree weed can be psychedelic likely. Take 5-10 hits of LSD, then you will agree LSD can show you anything Edited by lessismore (07/17/15 12:26 PM)
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Registered: 10/16/99 Posts: 3,493 Loc: world's shroom c |
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Quote: then its bunk
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: Again it isn't just about seeing entities because as I said I have indeed seen and encountered what could constitute 'entities' (angels demons creatures people etc) with LSD on high doses I just haven't been to hyperspace and seen those very distinct creatures that constitute that very distinct space that one will encounter on DMT or a high dose of Anahuasca or mushrooms. Quote: Please dont assume or tell me what I have and havent experienced dude I am not talking here about potency or how many bong rips one can take. You could eat a quater ounce of potent cannabis and still not experience anything close to an LSD trip but you would very likely scare the living crap out of yourself hallucinating out of your mind. Im saying its still not psychedelic in the sense that I would put cannabis into the same group as LSD or mescaline. That is all. I am not talking about potency here or how fucked up these things can or cannot make someone or if they make you hallucinate or see and hear things or not. -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown Edited by wolf8312 (07/17/15 12:49 PM)
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Quote: Nope it depends on your mind, do you have an 18 year old "oh my gosh im gonna trip its sooo cool mind" , or "today I just want to have fun, im gonna take the strongest stuff i can find with no tolerance in my grav bong bucket huge coke bottle hits until I have to sit/lay down" After you have tried a bit of most psychedelics you usually find you can 'get there' on any of them It's the mind that counts, you can get there without them too... I can get very high in meditation or lucid dreaming But all this is unbelieveable to a mind that hasn't tried opening itself in multiple ways It's NOT the tool that counts, you can use any tool People see the demon/devils on weed you know, girls etc. Btw. the creatures I saw on LSD looked like those on DMT, but does that make them good entities? Talking to random entities on drugs are usually not too safe, and I wouldn't encorage it. It's like it's a club you have to be apart, to take DMT and talk to the entities sometimes, else you 'havent tripped' But LSD can for sure take you there, as far as mushrooms/DMT , it's not the tool that counts It's your set,setting You can get there with meditation
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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A high dose of LSD can be very similar to a lucid dream for me, you think it's real, and sometimes you can control your reality and manifest , become aware of the oneness
You are the walls, the entities, your screen (if typing on the pc) Then it all starts to melt when you become aware of the oneness, you now master your reality You can master your reality on any psychedelic, or without (lucid dreaming) In fact lucid dreaming is the most amazing 'mind manifesting' experience I have ever had, together with out of body No words can do it justice, sure psychedelics are just as nice at times, but still not quite, flying anywhere is the best feeling in the world Only people who have tried a lucid dream/real OBE knows what I mean here... , you remember your home, you remember not being this body you remember coming into your body and using your senses and forgetting your real existance Can be very emotional, once you have one LD/OBE you remember it for life. People practice them too, I've been practicing them for many years, flying in my dreams. Psychedelics is just an alternate mind manifesting experience for me, but I like the control that LDs give, Salvia is very much like a lucid dream - just no control , so not pleasant so often
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: Yeah I've heard people say this and I guess its possible. Far be it from me though! -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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To the one saying cannabis is not psychedelic at all, I get visuals each time I smoke it out of a bucket, the strongest indica skunk/sativa
For the rest of the night I got visuals, faces in the floor/outside/in leaves if I walk outside faces in the bushes I can even see spirits sometimes it looks like, hard to say what it was You underestimate drugs, any drug can also give you psychosis which it most likely was In psychosis you may hallucinate fully, even hear voices etc. / the door ring Cannabis mindfucks me like no psychedelic, out checking the door ringing multiple times but noone there... Then I stopped using it.. It is not pleasant that paranoia.. Cannabis is hard on the psyche... - LSD is much easier for me Each person is different, you say it is impossible because you haven't experienced visuals But I get those pattern visuals each time, and after taking LSD I get rotating carpet on weed now too... But thinking it is impossible, you rob yourself of the opportunity to experience cannabis' hallucination abilities, audible,visual hallucinations can be there often And they are just as intense as on LSD for me almost , not same morphing, but intense overlap of another dimension , very hard to explain I feel like in another reality when I take a few tokes... as much of a trip as with LSD It's a nice experience nevertheless, and I would say it can be psychedelic, but usually isn't as much as LSD (again depends on the mind - girls get bad psychedelic trips on weed often) I have also had time travels and intense introspection on weed, almost all the psychedelic effects as on LSD.. Know nothing, assume nothing
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Registered: 12/30/14 Posts: 1,969 |
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i am a HEAVY weed smoker and i have only ever had visuals on cannabis once when i smoked like a gram of bho out of a steamroller. i notice the visual distortion cannabis can have but never really hallucinate from it. salvia took me off guard with its affects at first but now i find that i am even getting more and more used to salvia and the experience is not as intense and barely noticable unless i focus on what i am experiencing, although i have not been taking giant rips like i was before.
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Quote: This is the reason I cannot recommend Lucid Dreaming enough Better visuals than high dose LSD (and high dose LSD can produce anything and make it real) LDs are MORE real than this reality often, feels more real, and you can fly It blows the mind like nothing I've tried Meditation is usually just about relaxing for me, I don't aim for visuals, but I can lay down in my bed for 45-60mins and enter a lucid dream, where I wake up where I went to bed But now I can fly through walls, teleport, fly anywhere in the country Go to work/school and start flying around etc. Feels 100% real, gravity too, can talk to people in there too. Jumping out of buildings is fun too although a bit scary..
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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It is possible to talk to spirit/entities on most psychedelics, I have received much guidance that way
It only works for me if I learn and apply lessons from the trip in real life So it only works if I live healthy, feed my mind body and soul in healthy ways, if I share the love etc. There are loving entities that want to help it seems, and there are also parasites that want to exploit you Who you attract in these dimensions depend on your own actions in life LSD I have talked to the same on, as mushrooms, and also my higher self many times (soul)
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: Well as you define psychedelic as hallucinogenic then you are of course right and I guess its just a matter of how you define the term. I personally have a different interpretation. Take care! -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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![]() That's the usual problem with psychedelics, they tend to make us assume stuff So people assume a level5 looks like that and that But all it really is/can be is a good guide line, as long as one knows that one doesn't know ;-P Then one is free to experiment with the psychedelic he/she feels drawn to... People are wired very differently, I have heard people say they love Salvia and it's their preferred psychedelic often. I can recommend salvia 5x/20x, it is a nice 'psychedelic' in my own definition, will make you question stuff likely, usually extremely intense too, feels like dreaming awake, usually intense morphing in the room/outside for me , very much like a lucid dream for me but not quite A sitter is very advised, until you become familiar with it, there is a risk of running around/falling on it/dropping the bong There is the same wonderful nature connection on Salvia often for me... , and appreciation of what you see. Might feel drawn to nature after smoking it. Edited by lessismore (07/17/15 03:24 PM)
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: My definition of psychedelic is "mind manifesting" A psychedelic is a compound that allows one to open and explore the psyche and the soul. Where as plenty of things can make you halucinate that don't qualify under the "mind manifesting" definition, hell, if you eat too much dramamine you will halucinate, this doesent mean dramamine is psychedelic. There are compounds that don't induce hallucination such as THC or MDMA, that have mind manifesting qualities, these can be considered psychedelic in certain situations. -E. Borodin
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Strangest Registered: 02/22/11 Posts: 6,565 Loc: the universe, th Last seen: 6 years, 6 months |
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So what does it mean to manifest a mind?
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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That the properties of mind, psyche and soul are opened for exploration.
-E. Borodin
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Strangest Registered: 02/22/11 Posts: 6,565 Loc: the universe, th Last seen: 6 years, 6 months |
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I have a mind a psyche and a soul. I can openly explore them. I can explore them them on dramamine if I want.
Edited by healing (07/18/15 06:52 AM)
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: How many people do you know that eat dramamine and say "that was an amazing unfiltered look into the depths of my mind and soul"...? David E. Nichols prefers the definition below: Jerome Jaffe (1990), writing on drugs of abuse in Goodman and Gillman's The Pharmacologic Basis of Therapeutics, the standard text on drug activity, has indicated a preference for the term psychedelic in the most recent editions. He argues that, while many drugs other than the psychedelics are known to produce hallucinations at toxic doses or in specific circumstances, the principal activity of the psychedelics is not the production of hallucinations, but rather “states of altered perception, thought and feeling that are not experienced otherwise except in dreams or at times of religious exaltation” To most the difference between something that makes you halucinate and a psychedelic would be obvious... -E. Borodin
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Strangest Registered: 02/22/11 Posts: 6,565 Loc: the universe, th Last seen: 6 years, 6 months |
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I could, for one. But I've been exploring my mind for a very long time. You don't need a drug to have a psychedelic experience.
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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That's true, you don't, there are several forms of psychedelic experience. The compounds that induce these states are called psychedelic. Where as lumping compounds into this class simply because they induce hallucination is a mistake.
Often times I see the visual hallucinations as a distraction... There are many ways to explore the mind as well, but there's no shame in using exogenous neurotransmitters, some forms of mental exploration are in fact impossible without these compounds, let me explain: Your brain takes in something like 12 billion signals per second all of which (except for smell) enter through the thalamus, which filters out the majority of these signals and sends the remaining to the cortex regions to be processed. These cortex regions are your higher processing areas where psychological and emotional interpretation of the signals occurs. Since the thalamus filters out the majority of the incoming information before it can even get to the cortex regions your actually only perceiving a very small slice of reality. Now when you ingest a psychedelic tryptamine or phenethylamine it shuts-down these filtering mechanisms of the thalamus, thus flooding the cortex with all of reality, including what under normal circumstances never reaches your conscious perception. 5ht2a and 5ht2c receptors mediate this link between the thalamus and cortex regions. so if you really want to explore reality and the mind unfiltered you need the keys to unlock specific neurological pathways and functioning... However, all true psychedelics are either a tryptamine or a phenethylamine, and it's no coincidence that all higher neurotransmitters are either tryptamines (n,n-dimethyltryptamine (DMT),5-methoxy-tryptamine (serotonin), n-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine (melatonin), 6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-carbol These are all exogenous neurotransmitters with high affinity for advanced neurochemical process. If you don't eat tryptophan in your diet your body will be unable to produce serotonin and your brain would cease to function, it's essential that you obtain this compound through diet...just as if you want to explore the mind unfiltered and unimpeded you must have the keys for certain locked doors. -E. Borodin
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Strangest Registered: 02/22/11 Posts: 6,565 Loc: the universe, th Last seen: 6 years, 6 months |
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How is this system affected by the placebo effect?
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Quote: If that is true, then your own mind is the best tool of them all, serotonin For all these molecules do is imitate serotonin in the brain? They don't even look like it exactly... 1. You assume psychedelics must look like this and that 2. You assume you can get further with psychedelics than your brain All assumptions Maybe you can only get there with drugs, but maybe others can without, try asking a monk if he can get high without a drug Try asking an experienced lucid dreamer if they know their reality, if they can hack their reality, if they have learned their mind Psychedelics are not just safe, in fact there is often a price to pay, they can damage the nervous system it seems. They send away random signals in your brain often, you can't always control the flow, and before you can control the flow, the flow controlled you (you have to learn it). While this happens you may get any connection in your brain. You may think you're jesus christ, fall in love with your washing machine. Get anxiety, or death wishes. Anything may happen, because serotonin may regulate many body and mind functions. Any association may be made in your brain Hacking isn't just safe, no method is safe. You make psychedelics the king. Sure it may be for some. There are 100s of ways, incl shamanic drumming, sense deprivation, fasting + lucid dreaming. Most ways are much safer than psychedelics. Edited by lessismore (07/18/15 11:27 AM)
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Quote: Finally someone who gets it !;-) I am amazed about someone calling himself a shaman who can only get there on a drug.... How many people have you cured, if you rely on your drug as your understanding? (to that other guy) If your drug is your only connection, then you got lost long ago I do like shamanism, but thinking only drugs can get us there is very naive in my opinion. No real shaman would say that. Plants can be teachers, but psychedelics are often artificial too and can damage the nervous system. A real shaman can travel with just his brain, in many ways.
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Yes, they do "look" like serotonin in the case of tryptamines and dopamine in the case of phenethylamines. All tryptamine neurotransmitters in humans are produced from the essential amino acid L-tryptophan, and all tryptamine psychedelics in plants are produced from L-tryptophan, so the core of the compound never changes in either case, small things are added and removed, very very small changes. all tryptamines are a benzene ring connected to a pyrolle ring with a two carbon bridge with an amine group on the end. the variations are substitutions to this structure. Same with phenethylamines, all phenethylamines are a benzene ring with a two carbon bridge and an amine group at the end, the variations are substitutions to this core structure. I don't think you understand how these compounds are working in the brain, and honestly I could write out a huge pharmacology lecture here and none of it would sink in. ..I actually explained how and why these compounds generate a unique effect in the brain pharmacologically in the post you were responding to, I explained how these states were unique to their pharmacology and can't be derived by other means. When a monk derives mystical states through meditation it's in effect due to endogenous neurotransmitter release, they rely on endogenous DMT and pinoline instead of exogenous DMT and harmine. I've said over and over again, I value all forms of mental exploration, I practice meditation, I do work with binaural beats and isochronic tones, trance and drumming, sensory deprivation, and so on, but I'm not deluding myself into devaluing entheogenic practice as even being in the same category of mental exploration as meditation or dreaming. your mistake is trying to associate completely unrelated practices with one another. Psychedelic exploration is the antithesis of meditation and dreaming....and while meditation and dreaming are great, they are not even in the same class of experience as entheogenic exploration. It's not hacking the mind, it's using exogenous neurotransmitters to evolve your conscious and spiritual state. Your body recognizes these compounds and has built-in pathways to neutralize them, because it produces them or because they are so similar to compounds it already produces. These compounds cause no physical damage: As senior LSD researcher Dr. David Nichols, Distinguished Chair of Pharmacology at Purdue University and head of one of the world's top LSD research labs, stated in his 2004 review article on hallucinogens, "There is no evidence that any of the hallucinogens, even the very powerful semisynthetic LSD, causes damage to any human body organ. [...] Hallucinogens do not cause life-threatening changes in cardiovascular, renal, or hepatic function because they have little or no affinity for the biological receptors and targets that mediate vital vegetative functions (-erowid) A good deal of the forms of trying to reach these states without entheogens are dangerous, ordeal shamanism, non-entheogenic shamanism is far more dangerous than its entheogenic counter-part. When certain cultures were separated from their entheogens they had to resort to obtaining these states through dreaming, ordeal, meditation, etc...but it was a last resort, here's a story I think of every time I explain this to you: A man moved near a river and, wanting to find a way to travel across the water, spent ten years forming a type of levitation that would allow him to float across it. Buddha, who was preaching in town, was confronted by this man, who said, "Look master, look what I have achieved. I can walk across the water." And Buddha said, "Yeah, but the ferry only costs a nickel..." ...why would I resort to ordeals or somethings that I consider ineffective or potentially life threatenng when I have entheogens? Shamanism is about healing (as well as exploration), when the shaman drinks yage and sings into the patients body, and is then able to say "this person has stomach parasites, here's the plant to heal it", when you ask him how he did it he will tell you the sound waves look a specific way when a person has parasites...could the shaman have meditated or dreamed this? Which is why I keep explaining, these things are nor even in the same class of experience, and some things can't be done without them. I'm not sure why you constantly denounce entheogenic shamanism while saying dreams or meditation is somehow better, specially when you have never consumed ayahuasca or dimethyltryptamine, you don't even know the capabilities of what your claiming dreaming can best. Again, I'm all for all forms of mental exploration and practice them regularly, including meditation and work with dreams, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that these things should even be considered similar, these are two completely separate and different forms of exploration, and while it may be beneficial to compare aspects of these experiences for philosophical analysis and discussion, to try to compare them against one another is absurd. -E. Borodin
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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That's the first thing I said in the post was "yes, that's true, you don't need a drug to have a psychedelic experience"
When I said "that's true, you don't, there are many forms of psychedelic experience" what did you think I was talking about? Yet he "gets it" when we both agree on that point... I sometimes doubt you read anything I post, and think you just respond regardless of what was said... I mean I enjoy reading your perspective on things, but sometimes... -E. Borodin
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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You also keep calling these things drugs, tryptamine and phenethylamine entheogens are NOT drugs.
there's NOTHING in an ayahuasca decoction that isn't naturally produced in the human body (DMT is produced in the human body as is pinoline, a beta-Carboline near identical to harmine) I don't use drugs, I'm actually very against drugs, these things are exogenous neurotransmitters, literally. Could you cure cancer with dreaming? Somethings you need medicine sometimes there's no.way to heal with out medicine...not all illnesses are physical some are mental, some are spiritual, but entheogenic shamanism can treat all these things, often in ways far more effective than modern medicine. Shamans are healers, psychotherapists and explorers rolled into one....while lucid dreamers are just lucid dreamers... Dreaming is fine for exploration,but does nothing to dissolve ego, dissolve the barriers between the living and the dead, heal, induce claivoyance and so on.. You can't psychoanalyze yourself, the constructs of ego won't allow this, but when ego is diminished work as an individual can begin, that wasn't possible otherwise. this is how LSD can be like 15 years of psychotherapy in 15 minutes. It's something you can't induce naturally. Even how psilocin is being used to comfort dying people, you can't dream about after death states accurately but you can experience them via psilocin. To denounce entheogenic shamanism in favor of dreaming is missing the point of the purpose of shamanism, shamanism is not a selfish act, where as I don't see dreaming helping anybody but the dreamer... -E. Borodin
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Quote: Lucid dreaming / out of body states gives you energy, faith , optimism in the universe, and that soul energy spills over to everyone around you, so it benefits all you are around, everyone you meet feels good around you. You can unite with your soul in this way, but it seems you know what lucid dreaming does and it is worth nothing you say, it's just a dream You can explore your ego in it too, by realizing projections, going towards your fear Clairvoyance can be done with no drugs at all, for the people who have the ability this lifetime These people can look past lifetime/time / space normally in everyday life too without drugs. They can also see which chakras are having problems , and why people get ill, without the drug Then it is up to the person to heal after getting input A shaman never heals, a shaman teaches people to heal themselves right? A drug may make many promises, but is it always good promises? - I'm sure if you smoke weed you will both be younger, healthier, more intelligent, almost like einstein But is it really what you want? Drugs make many promises, and plants may too, depending on the spirits you attract A real shaman has been selected by spirit, he can get there without the drug or with the drug He can meet spirit in any place usually , at least the shamans I've seen That doesn't mean there are not medicines, however, and ayahuasca may be a real medicine better than any pharma pill As long as one knows that the teacher may be in many other places Crystals help me psychoanalyze myself and others, and so does nature. In fact just as well as mushrooms do. There is always a sober way it seems. They also help me connect with my higher self. Edited by lessismore (07/18/15 01:27 PM)
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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But now I am interested in this whole ayahuasca thing, do you give your clients themselves ayahuasca, or only yourself that takes it?
What do you see on it typically, that you don't see without? What can you heal that you cannot heal without? The way I usually heal, is to go deep myself, then next day I can heal others often. But I have only used mushrooms/LSD so far.. You could say the inspiration spills out to people next day , are you taking a dose that is large/small ? - a large one may be unpleasant and even make you hallucinate, a small one may help you focus How do you gain strength on psychedelics, because they can dissolve the ego, and that can leave us vulnerable? I.e. one effect they may have is they may disturb rational thinking by dissolving ego completely. So now you cannot write for a year... , how do you avoid that?
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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I didn't have a chance to read your responses yet, this was supposed to be attached to my last post, but I just got around to it now. I'm done for the day, but tomorrow I'll read and respond to posts, just consider this an extension of my last post describing the chemical structures of neurotransmitters and psychedelics. The red and blue lines indicate the similarities between molecules which I described. (Though it's incomplete, there's many more molecules I wanted to compare) It's pretty self explanatory, even if you don't understand chemistry you can see the the compounds are near identical. -E. Borodin
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Yes very interesting, it surprised me LSD looked that much different from serotonin. But it has been the most rewarding experience for me of any psychedelic.
I suppose it takes some chemistry knowledge to understand what these molecules really do, and even then we might not understand at all... We may understand it chemically, but brains respond very differently to chemical stimuli. A buddhist mind may not change almost not matter which drug you put onto it, so a buddhist might not trip or see anything. I have tried taking a high dose LSD before and nothing happening for 10 hours before. And other times lots of stuff happens, they're very unpredictable. But my questions were regarding Ayahuasca which interests me a bit. Do you feel it is more rewarding for you than LSD each time? (i.e. not personal reward, but the reward of feeling connected to everybody afterwards - and bringing healing with you). I don't really seek personal reward or visions. But I seek to expand to everyone around me. That connection..
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Again, extention of my last post, I have not read your responses yet because i always end up typing a 5 paragraph response, I'm seriously tired, but had the energy to upload a few pictures. I'll respond to posts in the morning. -E. Borodin
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Registered: 12/30/14 Posts: 1,969 |
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salvinorin a N,N-DMT
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: Ha ha! Got to agree and to be honest from among members here on the shroomery or even the vast majority of the whole world who really is able to experience something like LSD by simply meditating/dreaming or using other drugs that are chemically quite different as a vessel to get there? I have my doubts to be honest as that is an extraordinary acheivement. For me its just something people say, like DMT is produced in the human body! We ourselves cannot possibly know if it is possible or not. Self altering or manipulating ones own brain chemistry and function in order to bring about a biochemical reaction as Coincidentiaoppositorum described here? Quote: I'd imagine you would have to seriously fuck with your own pyhsical and mental well being in order to bring about such a reaction. It's probably why people have histroically starved themselves in order to bring themselves closer to god! Coincidentiaoppositorum has taken a much more scientific approach than I did focusing on the chemical structure of the various molecules but I believe that one should very vividly be able to recognize the familiar link between each and every psychedelic molecule through empirical experience and experimentation alone. They all have differences but each respective experience is like comparing one upper to another, all different compounds, but in terms of how they affect your mind and how one experiences them, they are all branches cut from the same tree. Salvia I believe does not belong on the psychedelic tree no matter what Wikipedia says. lessismore said: Quote: Got to rememeber though dude that alot of these shaman guys make a living out of convincing other people that they have such powers. Should we really just take their word for it? -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Hey Coincidentiaoppositorum a few questions for you ya big egg head. Forgive my ignorance here as I have only been studying Ochem for a year and as you probably know at this stage my studies are primarily focused on various different reaction mechanisms so I haven't really delved much into biochemistry or how chemical structure alters the affect of a given molecule on the brain. Nor have I really got onto amines yet (aldehydes alcohols and ketones at the moment) and certainly not any psychedelic molecules which is my ultimate goal. I am teaching myself from books and the internet dude, so always have questions/problems and would welcome some feedback and a chance to discuss these things with someone with more knowledge than I do. Looking at the structural differences between LSD, amphetamine, and mescaline it seems to me that the reason mescaline is so much more similar in effect to LSD than it is amphetamine is the existence of the methoxy groups on the mescaline molecule? Otherwise apart from the methoxy functional groups mescaline is actually structurally much closer to amphetamine than it is LSD though anyone who has ever taken mescaline, LSD, and amphetamine, can attest to the fact that LSD and mescaline are far more alike than they are in comparison to amphetamine. So does this mean were we to add methoxy groups to amphetamine there is a chance we would end up with a psychedelic compound? What would happen if I was to use something like freidel crafts acylation to somehow add a methyoxy group to amphetamine, would this then create a molecule that is more likely to be something more similar in affect to something like mescaline? The thing is I obviously know it cannot be that simple as many other compounds that are not psychedelic also share these similar chemical constituents (oxygen, amine, phenyl). So what exactly will constitute a psychedelic compound and how do scientists predict or aim to create psychedelic psychoactivity and set out to create new psychedelic compounds? Is it always a bit of case of trial and error? Does one need to start studying biochemistry in order to understand properly how molecular structures and functional groups can alter and distinguish psychoactivity? Many thanks in advance dude! -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown Edited by wolf8312 (07/19/15 06:00 AM)
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: I'll try to answer your questions the best that I can. I would say LSD is a modified tryptamine, that picture didn't outline in red properly the tryptamine core of LSD, if you start from the indole ring and move up the two carbon bridge you get to a nitrogen (position 6) with a methyl group attached, this is mono-methyl-tryptamine within LSD. I would say the phenethylamine relation was more coincidence, and the tryptamine core is what is important. (I always thought that if you could add two methyl groups to nitrogen 6 of LSD it would create a molecule of DMT within LSD, however nitrogen only has 3 gaps in its automatic shell, so it's impossible to add anything else to nitrogen 6, you could cleave the whole top half of the molecule, but then you end up with RU-28306. Quote: Yes, mescaline is a phenethylamine, amphetamine means "alpha-methyl-phenethylamine" so if you add a methyl (ch3) group to the alpha carbon of the two carbon bridge of phenethylamine you obtain amphetamine. If you add a methyl group to the alpha-carbon of mescaline you have 3,4,5-trimethoxy-amphetamine (TMA), which is a psychedelic. Amphetamine is very similar to dopamine, the way amphetamine and methamphetamine work is by flooding the synaptic cleft with dopamine then blocking the re-uptake transport, so all this extra dopamine is essentially trapped in the synaptic cleft for an extended period of time, this free floating dopamine severely damages the neuron... This is why I refer to the psychedelic amphetamines as alpha methyl phenethylamines or simply just as phenethylamines when in regular conversation, this prevents association with stimulant compounds in the same class HOWEVER the psychedelic amphetamines are serotonin 2a and serotonin 2c (5ht2a + 5ht2c) receptor agonists (with agonism or partial agonism at a few other sites depending on compound), they function in a rather different mode from amphetamine itself, and while some compounds may retain some stimulant properties, the psychedelic amphetamines share no relation to the stimulant amphetamines regarding their general pharmacology and subjective experience. And, yes, you guessed it, adding methoxy groups to amphetamine does create a series of psychedelic compounds. Though there are 3,4,5- methoxy amphetamines which resemble mescaline, the more promiant pattern is the 2,5-dimethoxy-4-substituted compounds. So here's an example, 2c-b is 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo-phenethyla In the 2C-x series and DOx series these compounds were all originally conceived from mescaline and it's amphetamine homologue TMA, then TMA-2 which is 2,4,5-,trimethoxy-amphetamine, which paved the way for shulgin to discover the 2,5-dimethoxy-4-substituted phenethylamines and amphetamines. The 4 position is generally filled by a halogen (having only one gap in their atomic shell row 7a of the periodic table want to fill this gap, making reactions with 2,5-dimethoxy-phenethylamine/amp There's a compound called 2-amino-indane, structurally and pharmacologically it resembles amphetamine, so one day I thought "I wonder if this could become a psychedelic with the proper methoxy substitutions to 4 and 7 and an alkyl variation or halogen at position 5" (which is the equivalent of position 4 of the DOx series) It turns out that one of these compounds has been made 4,7-dimethoxy-5-methyl-2-amino-i HOWEVER you could use position 5 of the 4,7-dimethoxy-5-X-2-amino-Indane I'm sorry it was a bit hard for me to understand your questions I tried to answer them as best as I could...each individual explanation could equal.an entire lecture on my part, plus there's many many different topics you requested me to cover so I'm a bit sorry if I was all over the place. I would be happy to answer any questions, but it helps if they are as direct as possible, and it helps to stick to one topic at a time. I hope I could help. -E. Borodin
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This space for lease Registered: 11/04/14 Posts: 1,560 Last seen: 7 days, 1 hour |
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How would you do this?
I mean if you do enough salvia to actually rival a DMT trip your a sobbing body on the floor or running into walls and screaming like a banshee, maybe do the DMT first and with some kind of superhuman resolve go in for the bongrip of 60x??? -------------------- https://discord.gg/hqdy5ymn
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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This shows the pathway to meletonin from L-tryptophan, notice how the essential amino acid and the neurotransmitters produced from it are near identical to the tryptamine psychedelics, which are also produced from tryptophan. Meletonin is further metabolized into pinoline, a beta-Carboline nearly identical to harmine, the key alkaloid in banisteriopsis caapi vine and peganum harmala seeds In this image you can compare pinoline to the beta-Carbolines found in peganum harmala and banisteriopsis caapi. And here you can compare ibogaine to pinoline and the beta Carbolines. -E. Borodin
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: Ha nah you answered the most important ones and I think I'm on track. Thanks dude and no you were a great help, and I enjoy reading your posts. -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Thank you! I'm glad I could help. Below is some random information that may be useful for you . I recommend you pick up a copy of Alexander shulgins PIHKAL and TIHKAL. The chemistry portions are online for free https://www.erowid.org/library/b But there's a front section to each book which is not available online and is packed with valuable information and leads, plus the first half is biographical and reads like a story, or series of stories, and is also packed with chemical information, as well as some entertaining anecdotes from the shulgins life. Regardless it's worth it to actually buy a copy of each book, I have had these books for years and I still find new information or leads every day, it's still providing new and helpful information after all these years, you can't say that about many books. A German chemist named Daniel Trachsel recently published a work titled " Phenethylamine Von der Struktur zur Funktion" which is almost a continuation of shulgins work, the issue is that I can't find an English copy of the entire work, the translated portions I have gone over are great though. This link covers the 2c-x series in a very understandable way, these compounds are phenethylamines, but their alpha-methylated (amphetamine) homologues exist as well, figured you may be interested due to your questions regarding psychedelic amphetamines. http://countyourculture.com/2010 -E. Borodin
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deep psychedelic Registered: 10/27/14 Posts: 1,965 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=
The video above was posted for lessismore, I hope it can provide you with a better understanding of entheogens. It starts off a little slow and takes a minute before it begins discussing entheogens in a way that relates to the conversations we have had in this and other threads, but over all I'd say it would be a good basic introduction to learning about entheogenic shamanism, nothing really advanced or overly technical, just very basic explanations of shamanism, entheogens and their use. -E. Borodin
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Stranger Registered: 04/15/15 Posts: 16 Last seen: 7 years, 10 months |
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DMT is supposedly more euphoric and I would hope so, my last experience with salvia wasnt very enjoyable...
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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I would say it is a mistake to want your mind opening experience to be enjoyable
Mushroom/LSD egodeath is rarely enjoyable meditating is rarely enjoyable at first, you become scared of the nothingness, and why you are not seeing something when everyone else is seeing god, you want to see the same as others But how can we trip for ourselves? Only by not wanting to experience/see what others see Then the unpleasant Salvia route may work fine ?;-) - Maybe I'll give it a try again one day It has been somewhat neutral for me like lucid dreams, but they still expand the mind it seems to some extent (at least I think so) If I had never had any lucid dreams my life would be much much different, so even though they usually are unpleasant, I wouldn't be without them Same may be for Salvia , often unpleasant, but rarely regretted after smoking (I always wonder why I didn't do it earlier)
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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Oxycodone is enjoyable .. I heard :-)
We should never seek expansion just by pleasure, pleasure is often our enemy Desires and wantings can hold us back from expanding our minds (they can bring addiction or strengthen the ego - because the ego lives to 'want' stuff).
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour |
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Quote: Thanks dude, sorry I didnt get back to you sooner. Pihkal at this stage is a little, or lets be honest, totally out of my league I'm afraid. I am probably going to buy it for my iPad though because I can see it could teach me alot. I guess that what its telling me is not really much dissimilar to any of the reactions that I study every day but my nomenclature has huge gaps in it especially with phenyl groups as substituents and there are also many reagents that I am not familiar with being used. I guess I need to do a bit more crawling yet before I can walk! I have seen a book online that is basically a reference book for reagents perhaps I should buy it. I am plenty busy though and slowly working through the 2nd semester topics of organic chemistry as a second language(half way through), but its hard to know where I am exactly and what I should do when finished with these books. I guess then its onto problems problems problems! I need to allocate more time to nomenclature to be honest as reading Pihkal really makes me realize how vital it is to be able to read a compounds name and quickly determine its structure but at this present time I am much too slow and lacking in confidence. I am not sure that such a book exists but what I would love to find is a book like Pihkal but with drawings of all of the reaction mechanisms and reagents drawn out in diagrams! I guess I just got to be patient as I am still on the basics. This week I finally got through amines (imines hydrazone oxime) and some C nucleophiles and was feeling pretty good! A quick glance at Pihkal brought me crashing back down to earth though! I downloaded a book the other day called 'the art of problem solving in organic chemistry' and hoped it would provide some extra problems to solve in Ochem in the same manner of Ochem as a second language. It was though graduate level and fricking ridiculous! What worries me is at the moment my job affords me time that I doubt I will have in the future. I just hope I reach Moscow before the winter sets in! I have a feeling already that things are really getting easier and my instincts for how reactions will go are improving, I just hope I can build a solid enough foundation of knowledge so that in future I needn't spend 5 hours or more a day on it! I best stop rambling on here dude!
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown Edited by wolf8312 (07/25/15 09:20 AM)
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