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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: lessismore]
    #21956053 - 07/17/15 01:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Btw. the creatures I saw on LSD looked like those on DMT, but does that make them good entities?
Talking to random entities on drugs are usually not too safe, and I wouldn't encorage it. It's like it's a club you have to be apart, to take DMT and talk to the entities sometimes, else you 'havent tripped'

But LSD can for sure take you there, as far as mushrooms/DMT , it's not the tool that counts
It's your set,setting

You can get there with meditation





Yeah I've heard people say this and I guess its possible. Far be it from me though!


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: lessismore]
    #21956073 - 07/17/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

To the one saying cannabis is not psychedelic at all, I get visuals each time I smoke it out of a bucket, the strongest indica skunk/sativa

For the rest of the night I got visuals, faces in the floor/outside/in leaves if I walk outside
faces in the bushes

I can even see spirits sometimes it looks like, hard to say what it was


You underestimate drugs, any drug can also give you psychosis which it most likely was
In psychosis you may hallucinate fully, even hear voices etc. / the door ring

Cannabis mindfucks me like no psychedelic, out checking the door ringing multiple times but noone there...

Then I stopped using it..  It is not pleasant that paranoia..
Cannabis is hard on the psyche... - LSD is much easier for me


Each person is different, you say it is impossible because you haven't experienced visuals
But I get those pattern visuals each time, and after taking LSD I get rotating carpet on weed now too...

But thinking it is impossible, you rob yourself of the opportunity to experience cannabis' hallucination abilities, audible,visual hallucinations can be there often

And they are just as intense as on LSD for me almost , not same morphing, but intense overlap of another dimension , very hard to explain
I feel like in another reality when I take a few tokes... as much of a trip as with LSD

It's a nice experience nevertheless, and I would say it can be psychedelic, but usually isn't as much as LSD (again depends on the mind - girls get bad psychedelic trips on weed often)

I have also had time travels and intense introspection on weed, almost all the psychedelic effects as on LSD..

Know nothing, assume nothing


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InvisibleTrichome_Delta9
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: lessismore]
    #21956097 - 07/17/15 01:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

i am a HEAVY weed smoker and i have only ever had visuals on cannabis once when i smoked like a gram of bho out of a steamroller. i notice the visual distortion cannabis can have but never really hallucinate from it. salvia took me off guard with its affects at first but now i find that i am even getting more and more used to salvia and the experience is not as intense and barely noticable unless i focus on what i am experiencing, although i have not been taking giant rips like i was before.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: wolf8312]
    #21956134 - 07/17/15 01:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Quote:

Btw. the creatures I saw on LSD looked like those on DMT, but does that make them good entities?
Talking to random entities on drugs are usually not too safe, and I wouldn't encorage it. It's like it's a club you have to be apart, to take DMT and talk to the entities sometimes, else you 'havent tripped'

But LSD can for sure take you there, as far as mushrooms/DMT , it's not the tool that counts
It's your set,setting

You can get there with meditation





Yeah I've heard people say this and I guess its possible. Far be it from me though!




This is the reason I cannot recommend Lucid Dreaming enough

Better visuals than high dose LSD (and high dose LSD can produce anything and make it real)


LDs are MORE real than this reality often, feels more real, and you can fly


It blows the mind like nothing I've tried
Meditation is usually just about relaxing for me, I don't aim for visuals, but I can lay down in my bed for 45-60mins and enter a lucid dream, where I wake up where I went to bed

But now I can fly through walls, teleport, fly anywhere in the country
Go to work/school and start flying around etc.

Feels 100% real, gravity too, can talk to people in there too. Jumping out of buildings is fun too although a bit scary..


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: lessismore]
    #21956197 - 07/17/15 01:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It is possible to talk to spirit/entities on most psychedelics, I have received much guidance that way

It only works for me if I learn and apply lessons from the trip in real life

So it only works if I live healthy, feed my mind body and soul in healthy ways, if I share the love etc.


There are loving entities that want to help it seems, and there are also parasites that want to exploit you

Who you attract in these dimensions depend on your own actions in life

LSD I have talked to the same on, as mushrooms, and also my higher self many times (soul)


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: lessismore]
    #21956604 - 07/17/15 03:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lessismore said:
To the one saying cannabis is not psychedelic at all, I get visuals each time I smoke it out of a bucket, the strongest indica skunk/sativa

For the rest of the night I got visuals, faces in the floor/outside/in leaves if I walk outside
faces in the bushes

I can even see spirits sometimes it looks like, hard to say what it was


You underestimate drugs, any drug can also give you psychosis which it most likely was
In psychosis you may hallucinate fully, even hear voices etc. / the door ring

Cannabis mindfucks me like no psychedelic, out checking the door ringing multiple times but noone there...

Then I stopped using it..  It is not pleasant that paranoia..
Cannabis is hard on the psyche... - LSD is much easier for me


Each person is different, you say it is impossible because you haven't experienced visuals
But I get those pattern visuals each time, and after taking LSD I get rotating carpet on weed now too...

But thinking it is impossible, you rob yourself of the opportunity to experience cannabis' hallucination abilities, audible,visual hallucinations can be there often

And they are just as intense as on LSD for me almost , not same morphing, but intense overlap of another dimension , very hard to explain
I feel like in another reality when I take a few tokes... as much of a trip as with LSD

It's a nice experience nevertheless, and I would say it can be psychedelic, but usually isn't as much as LSD (again depends on the mind - girls get bad psychedelic trips on weed often)

I have also had time travels and intense introspection on weed, almost all the psychedelic effects as on LSD..

Know nothing, assume nothing




Well as you define psychedelic as hallucinogenic then you are of course right and I guess its just a matter of how you define the term. I personally have a different interpretation.

Take care!


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: wolf8312]
    #21956643 - 07/17/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:wink:

That's the usual problem with psychedelics, they tend to make us assume stuff

So people assume a level5 looks like that and that

But all it really is/can be is a good guide line, as long as one knows that one doesn't know ;-P

Then one is free to experiment with the psychedelic he/she feels drawn to...

People are wired very differently, I have heard people say they love Salvia and it's their preferred psychedelic often.

I can recommend salvia 5x/20x, it is a nice 'psychedelic' in my own definition, will make you question stuff likely, usually extremely intense too, feels like dreaming awake, usually intense morphing in the room/outside for me , very much like a lucid dream for me but not quite
A sitter is very advised, until you become familiar with it, there is a risk of running around/falling on it/dropping the bong


There is the same wonderful nature connection on Salvia often for me... , and appreciation of what you see. Might feel drawn to nature after smoking it.


Edited by lessismore (07/17/15 03:24 PM)


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: lessismore]
    #21959421 - 07/18/15 06:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lessismore said:
My definition of psychedelic is hallucinogenic

But Salvia is extremely hallucinogenic, psychedelic doesn't guarantee any thing (i.e. doesn't guarantee mind expansion which they often do)

So a hallucinogen without guarantees.

Salvia can give me the classic LSD visuals in a few ways. Becoming one with room. Morphing room. Morping objects. Objects taking form as other objects. My hands repeating into infinity. My hands becoming other objects. My arms becoming the walls of another room, now I am in a new reality that I can walk in. Swirling carpet / sliding carpet in intense ways. Geometric patterns in carpet/objects/my hands/arms etc.

It's like a waking lucid dream... feels so real

LSD can feel 100% real too each time, to the point you cannot tell it is visuals, just take a high dose (extremely high dose, 400ug+)

Same for shrooms, at a point your visuals become real.

The good effects of classical psychedelics I have yet to experience on Salvia, it hasn't appeared meaningful to me yet. But LSD didn't appear meaningful to me either before 50-100 trips or so where it lead to an awakening suddenly. It seems we have to learn to let go with any psychedelic before we even remotely can start to understand the molecule. I haven't learned fully to let go with Salvia yet though, no breakthrough yet, except being transferred out of body each time.

Psychedelics also have dangers, and Salvia has its dangers. The danger i.e. is that you can smoke it everyday or several times a week and disassociate completely from this reality. It will take a long time to regain consciousness after a trip. It can often feel like a high dose mushrooms/LSD in that regard.

It can expand the mind too like classical psychedelics, like weed etc.

But how do we classify psychedelics? - many drugs can expand the mind
is it the drug experience, or is it the drug?


As many people claim weed has expanded their minds as psychedelics




My definition of psychedelic is "mind manifesting"

A psychedelic is a compound that allows one to open and explore the psyche and the soul.

Where as plenty of things can make you halucinate that don't qualify under the "mind manifesting" definition, hell, if you eat too much dramamine you will halucinate, this doesent mean dramamine is psychedelic.

There are compounds that don't induce hallucination such as THC or MDMA, that have mind manifesting qualities, these can be considered psychedelic in certain situations.



-E. Borodin


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Offlinehealing
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21959425 - 07/18/15 06:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So what does it mean to manifest a mind?


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: healing]
    #21959438 - 07/18/15 06:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That the properties of mind, psyche and soul are opened for exploration.

-E. Borodin


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Offlinehealing
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21959455 - 07/18/15 06:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have a mind a psyche and a soul. I can openly explore them. I can explore them them on dramamine if I want.


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



Edited by healing (07/18/15 06:52 AM)


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: healing]
    #21959659 - 07/18/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

healing said:
I have a mind a psyche and a soul. I can openly explore them. I can explore them them on dramamine if I want.




How many people do you know that eat dramamine and say "that was an amazing unfiltered look into the depths of my mind and soul"...?

David E. Nichols prefers the definition below:

Jerome Jaffe (1990), writing on drugs of abuse in Goodman and Gillman's The Pharmacologic Basis of Therapeutics, the standard text on drug activity, has indicated a preference for the term psychedelic in the most recent editions. He argues that, while many drugs other than the psychedelics are known to produce hallucinations at toxic doses or in specific circumstances, the principal activity of the psychedelics is not the production of hallucinations, but rather “states of altered perception, thought and feeling that are not experienced otherwise except in dreams or at times of religious exaltation”


To most the difference between something that makes you halucinate and a psychedelic would be obvious...

-E. Borodin


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Offlinehealing
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21959732 - 07/18/15 09:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I could, for one. But I've been exploring my mind for a very long time. You don't need a drug to have a psychedelic experience.


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: healing]
    #21959843 - 07/18/15 09:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That's true, you don't, there are several forms of psychedelic experience. The compounds that induce these states are called psychedelic. Where as lumping compounds into this class simply because they induce hallucination is a mistake.

Often times I see the visual hallucinations as a distraction...

There are many ways to explore the mind as well, but there's no shame in using exogenous neurotransmitters, some forms of mental exploration are in fact impossible without these compounds, let me explain:
Your brain takes in something like 12 billion signals per second all of which (except for smell) enter through the thalamus, which filters out the majority of these signals and sends the remaining to the cortex regions to be processed. These cortex regions are your higher processing areas where psychological and emotional interpretation of the signals occurs. Since the thalamus filters out the majority of the incoming  information before it can even get to the cortex regions your actually only perceiving a very small slice of reality. Now when you ingest a psychedelic tryptamine or phenethylamine it shuts-down these filtering mechanisms of the thalamus, thus flooding the cortex with all of reality, including what under normal circumstances never reaches your conscious perception. 5ht2a and 5ht2c receptors mediate this link between the thalamus and cortex regions.
so if you really want to explore reality and the mind unfiltered you need the keys to unlock specific neurological pathways and functioning...

However, all true psychedelics are either a tryptamine or a phenethylamine, and it's no coincidence that all higher neurotransmitters are either tryptamines (n,n-dimethyltryptamine (DMT),5-methoxy-tryptamine (serotonin), n-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine (melatonin), 6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (pinoline), or phenethylamines (dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine), true psychedelics are in fact either identical to or variations of neurotransmitters.

These are all exogenous neurotransmitters with high affinity for advanced neurochemical process.

If you don't eat tryptophan in your diet your body will be unable to produce serotonin and your brain would cease to function, it's essential that you obtain this compound through diet...just as if you want to explore the mind unfiltered and unimpeded you must have the keys for certain locked doors.

-E. Borodin


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Offlinehealing
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21959958 - 07/18/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

How is this system affected by the placebo effect?


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21960029 - 07/18/15 11:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
That's true, you don't, there are several forms of psychedelic experience. The compounds that induce these states are called psychedelic. Where as lumping compounds into this class simply because they induce hallucination is a mistake.

Often times I see the visual hallucinations as a distraction...

There are many ways to explore the mind as well, but there's no shame in using exogenous neurotransmitters, some forms of mental exploration are in fact impossible without these compounds, let me explain:
Your brain takes in something like 12 billion signals per second all of which (except for smell) enter through the thalamus, which filters out the majority of these signals and sends the remaining to the cortex regions to be processed. These cortex regions are your higher processing areas where psychological and emotional interpretation of the signals occurs. Since the thalamus filters out the majority of the incoming  information before it can even get to the cortex regions your actually only perceiving a very small slice of reality. Now when you ingest a psychedelic tryptamine or phenethylamine it shuts-down these filtering mechanisms of the thalamus, thus flooding the cortex with all of reality, including what under normal circumstances never reaches your conscious perception. 5ht2a and 5ht2c receptors mediate this link between the thalamus and cortex regions.
so if you really want to explore reality and the mind unfiltered you need the keys to unlock specific neurological pathways and functioning...

However, all true psychedelics are either a tryptamine or a phenethylamine, and it's no coincidence that all higher neurotransmitters are either tryptamines (n,n-dimethyltryptamine (DMT),5-methoxy-tryptamine (serotonin), n-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine (melatonin), 6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (pinoline), or phenethylamines (dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine), true psychedelics are in fact either identical to or variations of neurotransmitters.

These are all exogenous neurotransmitters with high affinity for advanced neurochemical process.

If you don't eat tryptophan in your diet your body will be unable to produce serotonin and your brain would cease to function, it's essential that you obtain this compound through diet...just as if you want to explore the mind unfiltered and unimpeded you must have the keys for certain locked doors.

-E. Borodin




If that is true, then your own mind is the best tool of them all, serotonin

For all these molecules do is imitate serotonin in the brain?

They don't even look like it exactly...
1. You assume psychedelics must look like this and that
2. You assume you can get further with psychedelics than your brain

All assumptions

Maybe you can only get there with drugs, but maybe others can without, try asking a monk if he can get high without a drug

Try asking an experienced lucid dreamer if they know their reality, if they can hack their reality, if they have learned their mind

Psychedelics are not just safe, in fact there is often a price to pay, they can damage the nervous system it seems. They send away random signals in your brain often, you can't always control the flow, and before you can control the flow, the flow controlled you (you have to learn it). While this happens you may get any connection in your brain.
You may think you're jesus christ, fall in love with your washing machine. Get anxiety, or death wishes.
Anything may happen, because serotonin may regulate many body and mind functions. Any association may be made in your brain

Hacking isn't just safe, no method is safe. You make psychedelics the king. Sure it may be for some.

There are 100s of ways, incl shamanic drumming, sense deprivation, fasting + lucid dreaming. Most ways are much safer than psychedelics.


Edited by lessismore (07/18/15 11:27 AM)


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: healing]
    #21960073 - 07/18/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

healing said:
I could, for one. But I've been exploring my mind for a very long time. You don't need a drug to have a psychedelic experience.



Finally someone who gets it !;-)

I am amazed about someone calling himself a shaman who can only get there on a drug....

How many people have you cured, if you rely on your drug as your understanding? (to that other guy)

If your drug is your only connection, then you got lost long ago

I do like shamanism, but thinking only drugs can get us there is very naive in my opinion. No real shaman would say that. Plants can be teachers, but psychedelics are often artificial too and can damage the nervous system.

A real shaman can travel with just his brain, in many ways.


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: lessismore]
    #21960445 - 07/18/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

They don't even look like it exactly...
1. You assume psychedelics must look like this and that
2. You assume you can get further with psychedelics than your brain




Yes, they do "look" like serotonin in the case of tryptamines and dopamine in the case of phenethylamines. All tryptamine neurotransmitters in humans are produced from the essential amino acid L-tryptophan, and all tryptamine psychedelics in plants are produced from L-tryptophan, so the core of the compound never changes in either case, small things are added and removed, very very small changes. all tryptamines are a benzene ring connected to a pyrolle ring with a two carbon bridge with an amine group on the end. the variations are substitutions to this structure. Same with phenethylamines, all phenethylamines are a benzene ring with a two carbon bridge and an amine group at the end, the variations are substitutions to this core structure.

I don't think you understand how these compounds are working in the brain, and honestly I could write out a huge pharmacology lecture here and none of it would sink in.

..I actually explained how and why these compounds generate a unique effect in the brain pharmacologically in the post you were responding to, I explained how these states were unique to their pharmacology and can't be derived by other means.

When a monk derives mystical states through meditation it's in effect due to endogenous neurotransmitter release, they rely on endogenous DMT and pinoline instead of exogenous DMT and harmine.

I've said over and over again, I value all forms of mental exploration, I practice meditation, I do work with binaural beats and isochronic tones, trance and drumming, sensory deprivation, and so on, but I'm not deluding myself into devaluing entheogenic practice as even being in the same category of mental exploration as meditation or dreaming. your mistake is trying to associate completely unrelated practices with one another. Psychedelic exploration is the antithesis of meditation and dreaming....and while meditation and dreaming are great, they are not even in the same class of experience as entheogenic exploration.

It's not hacking the mind, it's using exogenous neurotransmitters to evolve your conscious and spiritual state. Your body recognizes these compounds and has built-in pathways to neutralize them, because it produces them or because they are so similar to compounds it already produces. These compounds cause no physical damage:
As senior LSD researcher Dr. David Nichols, Distinguished Chair of Pharmacology at Purdue University and head of one of the world's top LSD research labs, stated in his 2004 review article on hallucinogens, "There is no evidence that any of the hallucinogens, even the very powerful semisynthetic LSD, causes damage to any human body organ. [...] Hallucinogens do not cause life-threatening changes in cardiovascular, renal, or hepatic function because they have little or no affinity for the biological receptors and targets that mediate vital vegetative functions (-erowid)

A good deal of the forms of trying to reach these states without entheogens are dangerous, ordeal shamanism, non-entheogenic shamanism is far more dangerous than its entheogenic counter-part. When certain cultures were separated  from their entheogens they had to resort to obtaining these states through dreaming, ordeal, meditation, etc...but it was a last resort, here's a story I think of every time I explain this to you:

A man moved near a river and, wanting to find a way to travel across the water, spent ten years forming a type of levitation that would allow him to float across it. Buddha, who was preaching in town, was confronted by this man, who said, "Look master, look what I have achieved. I can walk across the water." And Buddha said, "Yeah, but the ferry only costs a nickel..."

...why would I resort to ordeals or somethings that I consider ineffective or potentially life threatenng when I have entheogens?

Shamanism is about healing (as well as exploration), when the shaman drinks yage and sings into the patients body, and is then able to say "this person has stomach parasites, here's the plant to heal it", when you ask him how he did it he will tell you the sound waves look a specific way when a person has parasites...could the shaman have meditated or dreamed this?
Which is why I keep explaining, these things are nor even in the same class of experience, and some things can't be done without them.

I'm not sure why you constantly denounce entheogenic shamanism while saying dreams or meditation is somehow better, specially when you have never consumed ayahuasca or dimethyltryptamine, you don't even know the capabilities of what your claiming dreaming can best.

Again, I'm all for all forms of mental exploration and practice them regularly, including meditation and work with dreams, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that these things should even be considered similar, these are two completely separate and different forms of exploration, and while it may be beneficial to compare aspects of these experiences for philosophical analysis and discussion, to try to compare them against one another is absurd.

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21960476 - 07/18/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That's the first thing I said in the post was "yes, that's true, you don't need a drug to have a psychedelic experience"

When I said "that's true, you don't, there are many forms of psychedelic experience" what did you think I was talking about?

Yet he "gets it" when we both agree on that point...

I sometimes doubt you read anything I post, and think you just respond regardless of what was said... I mean I enjoy reading your perspective on things, but sometimes...

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dmt and salvia? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21960548 - 07/18/15 01:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You also keep calling these things drugs, tryptamine and phenethylamine entheogens are NOT drugs.

there's NOTHING in an ayahuasca decoction that isn't naturally produced in the human body (DMT is produced in the human body as is pinoline, a beta-Carboline near identical to harmine)

I don't use drugs, I'm actually very against drugs, these things are exogenous neurotransmitters, literally.

Could you cure cancer with dreaming? Somethings you need medicine sometimes there's no.way to heal with out medicine...not all illnesses are physical some are mental, some are spiritual, but entheogenic shamanism can treat all these things, often in ways far more effective than modern medicine. Shamans are healers, psychotherapists and explorers rolled into one....while lucid dreamers are just lucid dreamers...

Dreaming is fine for exploration,but does nothing to dissolve ego, dissolve the barriers between the living and the dead, heal, induce claivoyance and so on..

You can't psychoanalyze yourself, the constructs of ego won't allow this, but when ego is diminished work as an individual can begin, that wasn't possible otherwise. this is how LSD can be like 15 years of psychotherapy in 15 minutes. It's something you can't induce naturally. Even how psilocin is being used to comfort dying people, you can't dream about after death states accurately but you can experience them via psilocin.


To denounce entheogenic shamanism in favor of dreaming is missing the point of the purpose of shamanism, shamanism is not a selfish act, where as I don't see dreaming helping anybody but the dreamer...

-E. Borodin


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