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OfflineShroomslip
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Registered: 11/25/12
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Guns control, where do you stand?
    #21936001 - 07/13/15 03:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Just curious. I've seen some people voice their opinions both for and against. What is the pubs general consensus on it?
Where do you stand on gun control
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (07/13/15 01:22 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Invisiblenooneman
Male

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Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21936006 - 07/13/15 03:28 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It's in the constitution. We have a constitutional right to own guns. Until and unless that right is removed from the constitution, all gun control is unconstitutional. I realize the courts don't 100% side with me on this, but this is how I feel.


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Offlinerooster149
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: nooneman]
    #21936008 - 07/13/15 03:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Laws change. I just know which side of the gun I'd like to be on.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: rooster149]
    #21936011 - 07/13/15 03:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

In order for the constitution to change, all 50 states have to unanimously ratify the same amendment. Good luck with that.

I would be surprised if ANY constitutional amendments get passed within the next 500 years. I wouldn't be surprised if the US ceases to exist before a new constitutional amendment is passed.


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: nooneman]
    #21936026 - 07/13/15 03:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Constitution argument is what worries me the most. It's starting to seem like that part of the constitution just doesn't matter anymore. Doesn't even need to be amended, people are just going to willfully ignore it.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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OfflineAcaterpillar
A little mad...
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21936028 - 07/13/15 04:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What annoys me is the people who assume our right to bare arms is for hunting.
We are entitled to military grade weapons in order to combat a tyrannical government should the circumstance arise.


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Aaa...E I O Uuu...A E I O Uuu..A E I O uh Uuu..
*Cough* *Cough*
Ooo...U E I O Aaa...U E I Aaa..A E I O Uuuuu...

At first sight, The Perfection of Wisdom is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality.


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InvisibleAstral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #21936037 - 07/13/15 04:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The idea of keeping a tyrannical government in check is unthinkable to most Americans yet it's the main reason for the second amendment. Slowly but surely they whittle away the 2nd until eventually they will have the upper hand. It will take some time, but with all our rights they play small ball.


--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

__


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Astral Pain]
    #21936044 - 07/13/15 04:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well it is kinda unthinkable at this point. We're pretty much limited to small arms with no automatics (we can get them, but depending on where you live, good fucking luck). Meanwhile the military has Apaches, bombers, fighters, tanks, etc etc.

They've pretty much already got the upper hand. Have for quite a while.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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InvisibleAstral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Astral Pain]
    #21936071 - 07/13/15 04:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If it was a guarantee that every citizen was aware of the situation there would be more numbers, but the majority would probably hop right on the fema camp truck. It would never get to that point and would most likely evolve into a communist system over time. The only reason to have a gun would be like the movie "The Road".


--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

__


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: nooneman]
    #21936088 - 07/13/15 05:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
In order for the constitution to change, all 50 states have to unanimously ratify the same amendment.




Except... no.

Quote:

A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution as soon as it is ratified by three-fourths of the States (38 of 50 States). When the OFR verifies that it has received the required number of authenticated ratification documents, it drafts a formal proclamation for the Archivist to certify that the amendment is valid and has become part of the Constitution. This certification is published in the Federal Register and U.S. Statutes at Large and serves as official notice to the Congress and to the Nation that the amendment process has been completed.




http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/


Fun facts:
The 27th took 202 years, 7 months, 12 days to ratify.

The 18th (prohibition of alcohol) was the first to include a deadline for ratification. (7 years)

The 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment on December 5, 1933. The amendment remains the only constitutional amendment to be repealed in its entirety; leaving only the power to regulate transportation solely to the federal government.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinemy3rdeye
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21936106 - 07/13/15 05:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Well it is kinda unthinkable at this point. We're pretty much limited to small arms with no automatics (we can get them, but depending on where you live, good fucking luck). Meanwhile the military has Apaches, bombers, fighters, tanks, etc etc.





You can vote them out you know. You can run for president yourself too. This coup or whatever it is you want is a slap in the face of democracy, it's what happen in shit countries. There is no reason you can't make a better nation, besides your defeatist attitude. That is the only thing stopping you. 


Quote:

Sanguin3 said:
It's a constitutional RIGHT, nuff said




This isn't America, it's the shroomey. To me your constitution is good for toilet paper. 


Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
What annoys me is the people who assume our right to bare arms is for hunting.
We are entitled to military grade weapons in order to combat a tyrannical government should the circumstance arise.




I am one of those people for sure. Hunting is great thing, I love it. The idea a bunch of red neck trash is going to overthrow the government is just retarded though. I also oppose self defense with a fire arm under almost all circumstances. Mainly since its a made up thing that doesn't really happen. Keeping a gun under the pillow just endangers your kids it doesn't improve your safety.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: my3rdeye]
    #21936174 - 07/13/15 06:49 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm against them and for them haha. :megusta:


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: nooneman]
    #21936241 - 07/13/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
In order for the constitution to change, all 50 states have to unanimously ratify the same amendment. Good luck with that.

I would be surprised if ANY constitutional amendments get passed within the next 500 years. I wouldn't be surprised if the US ceases to exist before a new constitutional amendment is passed.




3/4 of the states (38) are required to ratify an ammendment. We average about a new amendment every ten years or so.

Man, don't they teach civics in schools any more.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #21936252 - 07/13/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
What annoys me is the people who assume our right to bare arms is for hunting.
We are entitled to military grade weapons in order to combat a tyrannical government should the circumstance arise.




Only a radical minority think the people are entitled to own sophisticated military weaponry. Even Scalia has said it is absurd to think that the second amendment's modern purpose is to keep the federal government in check because military firepower is just overwhelming.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: nooneman]
    #21936263 - 07/13/15 07:46 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
It's in the constitution. We have a constitutional right to own guns. Until and unless that right is removed from the constitution, all gun control is unconstitutional. I realize the courts don't 100% side with me on this, but this is how I feel.




No court has ever ruled that the second amendment bars the government from regulating gun ownership.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936299 - 07/13/15 07:56 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Gun are for those who don't have the balls to stab someone


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InvisiblePsychonautica
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Registered: 04/20/15
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #21936305 - 07/13/15 07:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I stand on the opposite side as the people against guns.

With a loaded firearm.

or fire finger.


--------------------
The chances of you even being born, Were forty million to one. There's two parts of the statistic And I want you to live through one
3/8/95 - 7/10/15 Rest In Paradise, Brother.
Sheekle said:
yeah, i said i was afraid of psychonautica


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OfflineLived_1978-2043
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21936354 - 07/13/15 08:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I wish gov would pay people monthly $400 for choosing an option to wave their 2nd amendment right. $$$ helps all.


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21936368 - 07/13/15 08:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

i say arm everyone, including the children.  fuck gun control.  Population control and weeding out the stupid is what we really need


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welcome to my world http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/326


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: sprinkles]
    #21936375 - 07/13/15 08:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

a guns only purpose is to kill, so when i was a teen i was against guns. 



now i think people need to go away and I root for death in all forms.  :lol:


--------------------
welcome to my world http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/326


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Invisible404
error
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936390 - 07/13/15 08:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
It's in the constitution. We have a constitutional right to own guns. Until and unless that right is removed from the constitution, all gun control is unconstitutional. I realize the courts don't 100% side with me on this, but this is how I feel.




No court has ever ruled that the second amendment bars the government from regulating gun ownership.





"The right to bear arms shall not be infringed upon"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936402 - 07/13/15 08:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
What annoys me is the people who assume our right to bare arms is for hunting.
We are entitled to military grade weapons in order to combat a tyrannical government should the circumstance arise.




Only a radical minority think the people are entitled to own sophisticated military weaponry. Even Scalia has said it is absurd to think that the second amendment's modern purpose is to keep the federal government in check because military firepower is just overwhelming.




You're hyperbole always bites you in the ass. Perhaps a hyperbole-free method of communicating would suit you better.

Lewis vs. US

[Footnote 8]

These legislative restrictions on the use of firearms are neither based upon constitutionally suspect criteria nor do they trench upon any constitutionally protected liberties. See United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, 307 U. S. 178 (1939) (the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm t.hat does not have "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia"); United States v. Three Winchester 30-30 Caliber Lever Action Carbines, 504 F.2d 1288, 1290, n. 5 (CA7 1974); United States v. Johnson, 497 F.2d 548 (CA4 1974); Cody v. United States, 460 F.2d 34 (CA8), cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1010 (1972) (the latter three cases holding, respectively, that § 1202(a)(1), § 922(g), and § 922(a)(6) do not violate the Second Amendment).

TL:DR version...The Second was determined to not protect sawed-off shotguns because the justices decided they WERE NOT in common use by the military.

In simple terms for the simple... military style weapons are covered by the second.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Lived_1978-2043]
    #21936403 - 07/13/15 08:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lived_1978-2043 said:
I wish gov would pay people monthly $400 for choosing an option to wave their 2nd amendment right. $$$ helps all.




I wouldn't waive it for 400 million.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisible404
error
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: my3rdeye] * 1
    #21936406 - 07/13/15 08:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

my3rdeye said:
I also oppose self defense with a fire arm under almost all circumstances. Mainly since its a made up thing that doesn't really happen. Keeping a gun under the pillow just endangers your kids it doesn't improve your safety.




LOL are you completely blind? Self defense with a fire arm most certainly happens and is not a made up thing. People get mugged, people get robbed, homes get broken into.

Ffs, i just learned a couple weeks ago one of my old friends had their home broken into and his sister tied up, he chased them out with a shotgun.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936410 - 07/13/15 08:42 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
No court has ever ruled that the second amendment bars the government from regulating gun ownership.




For those who respect the written word, it's inevitable.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: 404]
    #21936413 - 07/13/15 08:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
It's in the constitution. We have a constitutional right to own guns. Until and unless that right is removed from the constitution, all gun control is unconstitutional. I realize the courts don't 100% side with me on this, but this is how I feel.




No court has ever ruled that the second amendment bars the government from regulating gun ownership.



Well then we need to overhaul the judicial system. And the atf is just a governmental agengcy not congress for one. If you think it's ok to take away fundemental rights of citizens,well I guess that would be on you.


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:kingcrankey: Please report me to a Mod for hurting your punk ass hippie feelings :flipthebird: And all time Champion thread killer.:thatsayes:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: r00tuuu123] * 3
    #21936419 - 07/13/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

koods only cares about rights HE favors.

Everyone else can go fuck themselves.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisible404
error
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936426 - 07/13/15 08:46 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It should be noted you can basically own a tank with a 200$ tax stamp the price of the tank aside.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: 404]
    #21936436 - 07/13/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

They are required to have the firing mechanism deactivated.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisible404
error
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936442 - 07/13/15 08:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't be surprised, but it's still a tank. Are you sure though? I think that kind of weapon pretty much falls under the "other" category on the nfa form


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936446 - 07/13/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

The idea behind the public having military equipment isn't so we can defend ourselves from the federal government. It's so the states don't have to rely on the  Federal government for their own protection from foreign attacks (EDIT: A militia could also defend against domestic attacks too, I guess.). The word Arms in the amendment certainly refers to military armaments. A reasonable interpretation of it would include the possession of military tanks, planes, and ships for various types of militias. Nukes are probably a bit out of scope.

States are allowed to empower their citizens for the defense of the state. It's among the many reasons that we shouldn't be fucked with as a nation. Here's an article that claims that the number of deer hunters in Wisconsin would weigh in as the 8th largest army in the world (It's close enough to accurate to make the point, so don't nitpick):

http://www.newberlinnow.com/blogs/communityblogs/112548274.html

Hunting and other gun sports can be thought of as a kind of light militia practice.


Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/13/15 08:57 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: 404]
    #21936455 - 07/13/15 08:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

404 said:
I wouldn't be surprised, but it's still a tank. Are you sure though? I think that kind of weapon pretty much falls under the "other" category on the nfa form




it's not a tank without te ability to fire, it's just an armored vehicle

"other" is classified as grenades, RPGs and the like


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936463 - 07/13/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I should have added that personal ownership of military weapons for personal use or private use is probably not protected by the second amendment if the use is not for the sake of organised public protection.


Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/13/15 09:03 AM)


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: 404]
    #21936471 - 07/13/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

404 said:
Are you sure though?




It appears we are both correct (though you more so), depending on where the tank comes from.


Quote:

"Every kid wants a toy tank," says Phil Josephs, who imported a Chieftain to catch the eyes of passersby at his Army-Navy store on a busy road in Delran, N.J. He found the antiaircraft gun he had outside before just didn't do the trick. Would-be tank importers must prove the weapons have been disabled.




Quote:

A tank in the U.S. can have operational guns, if the owner has a federal Destructive Device permit, and state laws don't prohibit it. The permit costs $200, and the applicant must swear he hasn't been a "fugitive from justice," "adjudicated mentally defective" or convicted of "a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence." A local law-enforcement official, usually a sheriff or police chief, has to sign off on the application.




http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578302480951570270


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936472 - 07/13/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

you'd be wrong to a point. the public is allowed to own NFA weapons which are
small arms, that includes anti tank rockets and many other explosive devices


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936478 - 07/13/15 09:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, but what would you do with an anti tank rocket or other explosive devices?


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: California]
    #21936482 - 07/13/15 09:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You would leave it in a gun safe. It's like a militia. If everything is working properly, then you never need it.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936487 - 07/13/15 09:09 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

The idea behind the public having military equipment isn't so we can defend ourselves from the federal government. It's so the states don't have to rely on the government for their own protection from foreign attacks. The word Arms in the amendment certainly refers to military armaments. A reasonable interpretation of it would include the possession of military tanks, planes, and ships for various types of militias. Nukes are probably a bit out of scope.

States are allowed to empower their citizens for the defense of the state. It's among the many reasons that we shouldn't be fucked with as a nation. Here's an article that claims that the number of deer hunters in Wisconsin would weigh in as the 8th largest army in the world (It's close enough to accurate to make the point, so don't nitpick):

http://www.newberlinnow.com/blogs/communityblogs/112548274.html

Hunting and other gun sports can be thought of as a kind of light militia practice.



Well at least you get it Pennsylvania has at least the 3rd largest army in the world at least in deer season. Ya gotta love how these asshats wanna give up their rights to a government that they dis agree with and don't have the forsight to understand that the right to keep and bear arms and have a well regulated militia that protect those very rights and yes thos words were Penned incase the government gets out of hand. Gotta love it. :lolsy: "I want weed Legal well to bad sucker you didn't want guns so we (the government) are going to imprison you for saying so. :buahaha: Sould have kept those guns bitch.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936495 - 07/13/15 09:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

The idea behind the public having military equipment isn't so we can defend ourselves from the federal government. It's so the states don't have to rely on the  Federal government for their own protection from foreign attacks (EDIT: A militia could also defend against domestic attacks too, I guess.). The word Arms in the amendment certainly refers to military armaments. A reasonable interpretation of it would include the possession of military tanks, planes, and ships for various types of militias. Nukes are probably a bit out of scope.

States are allowed to empower their citizens for the defense of the state. It's among the many reasons that we shouldn't be fucked with as a nation. Here's an article that claims that the number of deer hunters in Wisconsin would weigh in as the 8th largest army in the world (It's close enough to accurate to make the point, so don't nitpick):

http://www.newberlinnow.com/blogs/communityblogs/112548274.html

Hunting and other gun sports can be thought of as a kind of light militia practice.




Perhaps some reading is in order to correct your lack of knowledge.

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"If circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789


I could go on but unless you're being deliberately obtuse, there's more than sufficient evidence available.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: California] * 3
    #21936524 - 07/13/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

California said:
Yeah, but what would you do with an anti tank rocket or other explosive devices?





what the fuck ever I felt like doing with it


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936529 - 07/13/15 09:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think you misunderstood my post. All those quotes are in line with what I said. Maybe you missed the edit I added " (EDIT: A militia could also defend against domestic attacks too, I guess.)". If you're point is that protecting the states against direct attack or oppression from the federal government is the primary point of the second amendment, then you're wrong. It was certainly a consideration, but the main idea is to leave states the power to defend themselves from more obvious threats, like the standing armies of foreign nations.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936532 - 07/13/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ok yeah you're right, that would fall under "destructive devices" which includes anti-tank rounds (larger than .50 caliber) and considering the bore of the main gun of any tank is larger than .50 and well... Used for anti-tank purposes i'm guessing that's the category it falls under


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: 404]
    #21936536 - 07/13/15 09:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I dunno i dont really care what people decide to own as long as there not using them to harm others. Guns are fun as shit to shoot but i dont really feel like i need to own one so i dont. Probably pick up a .22 eventually just to have something cheap to shoot around with when i go camping and shit.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork] * 1
    #21936538 - 07/13/15 09:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No, though I missed your edit while preparing my reply, that is not the primary point of the Second.

The main idea is to leave people in possession of firearms for whatever reason they need. Tyrannical government over-reach simply being the most frequently mentioned.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936567 - 07/13/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
No, though I missed your edit while preparing my reply, that is not the primary point of the Second.

The main idea is to leave people in possession of firearms for whatever reason they need. Tyrannical government over-reach simply being the most frequently mentioned.




Tyrannical government over-reach is popular topic today, and it was back then too for obvious reasons, but a major part of the idea behind forming a constitution and bill of rights was to unify the states to better protect them from foreign threats like Great Britain. In general our military power was pretty shoddy back then, and the states really needed the ability to organize their own defenses when it wasn't in the overall country's best interests. If you look at our early military history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States), you'll see that lots of our wars/military-actions were really small scale. Sometimes they only involved a few ships. Pirates were a significant threat to individual states, and people really felt threatened by that kind of stuff. I'm sure we could dig up books of quotes about foreign threats being a major problem. Even some of your quotes talk about standing armies in general, and those are certainly meant to include foreign ones. At the time we were thinking about safe guards from our new federal government's military, but we put that power in place to protect us from foreign military powers, and the amendment's intention reflects both of those concerns pretty fairly IMO.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936579 - 07/13/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You can repeat that as often as you like. It won't suddenly become correct.

The quotes and writings of those that were there are what they are. They say what they say.

Unless you have something new...


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21936608 - 07/13/15 09:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

here is why gun control will never work





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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936626 - 07/13/15 10:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

404 said:
Ok yeah you're right, that would fall under "destructive devices" which includes anti-tank rounds (larger than .50 caliber) and considering the bore of the main gun of any tank is larger than .50 and well... Used for anti-tank purposes i'm guessing that's the category it falls under


Yeah but the 2nd says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" It says nothing about "destructive devices"
or  anti-tank rounds (larger than .50 caliber  So any thing you can lay your hands on could be an arm. I could kill you or maim you with the fork on a swiss army knife would that make it a "destructive device" I'd like to see "your" definition of a destructive device. Back up the middle of the road claims you are making. the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936675 - 07/13/15 10:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You can repeat that as often as you like. It won't suddenly become correct.

The quotes and writings of those that were there are what they are. They say what they say.

Unless you have something new...




You cherry picked those quotes, and they don't remotely represent a complete picture of what was going on. I promise you, those guys had lots of stuff to talk about that wasn't fear of their own tyrannical government. Your background in early american history is clearly biased by today's crazy political ramblings to the point where you don't understand the founders' motivations for actually forming a government that may one day become tyrannical. Most of the legal writing was put in place to address existing problems, critical thought about ways to avoid domestic tyranny was included to try to fix problems with the previous methods of forming and running governments. The second amendment was put there to make both the state and federal governments better able to deal with military crisis. It's there to increase military power and coverage.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936684 - 07/13/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You can repeat that as often as you like. It won't suddenly become correct.

The quotes and writings of those that were there are what they are. They say what they say.

Unless you have something new...




You cherry picked those quotes, and they don't remotely represent a complete picture of what was going on. I promise you, those guys had lots of stuff to talk about that wasn't fear of their own tyrannical government.




then why did they start a revolt against their tyranical government?


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936696 - 07/13/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short, and after they signed it and mailed it, they were talking about a foreign government.


Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/13/15 10:25 AM)


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936698 - 07/13/15 10:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.




and why were they forming a government, wasnt there already a government?


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936717 - 07/13/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

They didn't like their government, so they turned it into a foreign government. I already agreed that there were serious efforts put in  place to correct problems they saw in their old government's use of power. They still felt they needed a government that was mostly like old one in terms of providing military power, trade regulations, and many other important governmental powers. That's why they wrote a new constitution and formed a new government. The primary responsibility of government is not to avoid tyranny, and I think all the founding fathers would have agreed that a tyrannical government is better than an anarchy. They thought they could do a better job by being careful to only take the freedoms that they needed to take, and they were almost definitely right. That doesn't mean that the 2nd amendment is there primarily so we can revolt when we feel like it.

And I made that last edit in my previous post too late. Damn.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936728 - 07/13/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.


Short Who are you to say? Read the whole thing. Your rights to post your opine here is a result of that document Whether the bill of rights or the Pre-Amble Maybe you shuold read it in it's entirenty. The simple fact remains on the second ammendment It was put in place to defend against tyrany of any kind. "hey they got guns" Maybe it should have been the 1st ammendment. But hind sight being 20/20 .  Sometimes the power of the sword is greater than the power of the pen.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936734 - 07/13/15 10:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

We are so far beyond the original intent of the second ammendment. There are no militias organized the way the founders intended: subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed. Deer hunters are not attached to a government that organizes and regulates a militia.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936736 - 07/13/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This tyranny line is NRA PR bullshit.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21936765 - 07/13/15 10:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

d I think all the founding fathers would have agreed that a tyrannical government is better than an anarchy. They thought they could do a better job by being careful to only take the freedoms that they needed to take, and they were almost definitely right. That doesn't mean that the 2nd amendment is there primarily so we can revolt when we feel like it. WTF Plannet do you live on ? :feelsbadman: It has nothing to do when we feel like it. What did you learn in school 3rd grade basics? I may sound like a troll here, but cmon man be realistic Our country in it's purest form would be utopia. However the used car sailsmen  that lobby the government hold a lot of pull. I May sound paranoid but I quite assure you I am not.When the duly elected representatives start to fuck us it is too late to take action.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21936771 - 07/13/15 10:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You'll notice we don't treat our territories with the same rights we have either. The
Quote:

r00tuuu123 said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.


Short Who are you to say? Read the whole thing. Your rights to post your opine here is a result of that document Whether the bill of rights or the Pre-Amble Maybe you shuold read it in it's entirenty. The simple fact remains on the second ammendment It was put in place to defend against tyrany of any kind. "hey they got guns" Maybe it should have been the 1st ammendment. But hind sight being 20/20 .  Sometimes the power of the sword is greater than the power of the pen.




It's only a few pages long, man, and most of it is bitching about offenses the king committed. I'm not knocking it, it's one of my favorite fuck you statements, but it is short.

I don't know how else to say this. We formed the USA to form a more perfect union of states that required individual military power to adequately deal with military threats. We felt that unity between the states was very important, and nobody wanted it to be able to break down at the drop of a hat. Everybody agreed that militias were vital to the security of the whole nation and the individual states, that's why they get a special mention. It's more about national security than it is about being able to start a revolt when states are unhappy with the federal government. at the time, Revolutions were very uncommon and if you read the page or two of bitching in the declaration of independence, you'll see that the founders felt revolt was justified only under VERY extreme conditions.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936775 - 07/13/15 10:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
This tyranny line is NRA PR bullshit.



:thatsinteresting:


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Edited by r00tuuu123 (07/13/15 10:58 AM)


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936808 - 07/13/15 11:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
You'll notice we don't treat our territories with the same rights we have either. The
Quote:

r00tuuu123 said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.


Short Who are you to say? Read the whole thing. Your rights to post your opine here is a result of that document Whether the bill of rights or the Pre-Amble Maybe you shuold read it in it's entirenty. The simple fact remains on the second ammendment It was put in place to defend against tyrany of any kind. "hey they got guns" Maybe it should have been the 1st ammendment. But hind sight being 20/20 .  Sometimes the power of the sword is greater than the power of the pen.




It's only a few pages long, man, and most of it is bitching about offenses the king committed. I'm not knocking it, it's one of my favorite fuck you statements, but it is short.

I don't know how else to say this. We formed the USA to form a more perfect union of states that required individual military power to adequately deal with military threats. We felt that unity between the states was very important, and nobody wanted it to be able to break down at the drop of a hat. Everybody agreed that militias were vital to the security of the whole nation and the individual states, that's why they get a special mention. It's more about national security than it is about being able to start a revolt when states are unhappy with the federal government. at the time, Revolutions were very uncommon and if you read the page or two of bitching in the declaration of independence, you'll see that the founders felt revolt was justified only under VERY extreme conditions.




The constitution takes a very hard line against rising up against the government: the only crime specifically mentioned in the document is taking up arms against the US AKA treason.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936810 - 07/13/15 11:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
This tyranny line is NRA PR bullshit.




They're cry-baby conservatives. These people most not have looked past the first couple of paragraphs in the declaration of independence. The claim of tyranny was supported by LOTS of very serious offenses committed by the British government, and those offenses had been going on for a while, and they were seriously hurting the prosperity of the colonies. We even gave the British government chances to change it's ways and address our complaints.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936817 - 07/13/15 11:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
You'll notice we don't treat our territories with the same rights we have either. The
Quote:

r00tuuu123 said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.


Short Who are you to say? Read the whole thing. Your rights to post your opine here is a result of that document Whether the bill of rights or the Pre-Amble Maybe you shuold read it in it's entirenty. The simple fact remains on the second ammendment It was put in place to defend against tyrany of any kind. "hey they got guns" Maybe it should have been the 1st ammendment. But hind sight being 20/20 .  Sometimes the power of the sword is greater than the power of the pen.




It's only a few pages long, man, and most of it is bitching about offenses the king committed. I'm not knocking it, it's one of my favorite fuck you statements, but it is short.

I don't know how else to say this. We formed the USA to form a more perfect union of states that required individual military power to adequately deal with military threats. We felt that unity between the states was very important, and nobody wanted it to be able to break down at the drop of a hat. Everybody agreed that militias were vital to the security of the whole nation and the individual states, that's why they get a special mention. It's more about national security than it is about being able to start a revolt when states are unhappy with the federal government. at the time, Revolutions were very uncommon and if you read the page or two of bitching in the declaration of independence, you'll see that the founders felt revolt was justified only under VERY extreme conditions.




The constitution takes a very hard line against rising up against the government: the only crime specifically mentioned in the document is taking up arms against the US AKA treason.




I missed you.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936828 - 07/13/15 11:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You can repeat that as often as you like. It won't suddenly become correct.

The quotes and writings of those that were there are what they are. They say what they say.

Unless you have something new...




You cherry picked those quotes, and they don't remotely represent a complete picture of what was going on. I promise you, those guys had lots of stuff to talk about that wasn't fear of their own tyrannical government. Your background in early american history is clearly biased by today's crazy political ramblings to the point where you don't understand the founders' motivations for actually forming a government that may one day become tyrannical. Most of the legal writing was put in place to address existing problems, critical thought about ways to avoid domestic tyranny was included to try to fix problems with the previous methods of forming and running governments. The second amendment was put there to make both the state and federal governments better able to deal with military crisis. It's there to increase military power and coverage.




Seeing as they were revolting against a tyrannical government, I'd be so blunt as to say you're full of shit and that you're the one "clearly biased by today's crazy political ramblings to the point where you don't understand the founders' motivations for actually forming a government that may one day become tyrannical."

But hey... enjoy your obtuseness.


--------------------
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936829 - 07/13/15 11:09 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:

koods said:
This tyranny line is NRA PR bullshit.




They're cry-baby conservatives. These people most not have looked past the first couple of paragraphs in the declaration of independence. The claim of tyranny was supported by LOTS of very serious offenses committed by the British government, and those offenses had been going on for a while, and they were seriously hurting the prosperity of the colonies. We even gave the British government chances to change it's ways and address our complaints.


Hmm It sounds like a wife married to a redneck that gets beat for running out of beer and says fuck off I 'dont  need you. :laugh2:


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936831 - 07/13/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It should be more strict than it is now.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21936832 - 07/13/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Not even a little, but change the Second if you can.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936847 - 07/13/15 11:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The founders solution for a tyrannical government was not the second amendment, it was Article I, II and III of the constitution which set up an elected president, elected members of the house, appointed senators, and a unelected judiciary.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936848 - 07/13/15 11:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The constitution takes a very hard line against rising up against the government: the only crime specifically mentioned in the document is taking up arms against the US AKA treason.


Yeah so you put up a united front so  What is your prime example of treason?


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936852 - 07/13/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The founders solution for a tyrannical government was not the second amendment, it was Article I, II and III of the constitution which set up an elected president, elected members of the house, appointed senators, and a unelected judiciary.




How unsatisfyingly nonviolent.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21936856 - 07/13/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Article III, sec 3
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936863 - 07/13/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

r00tuuu123 said:
....

Hmm It sounds like a wife married to a redneck that gets beat for running out of beer and says fuck off I 'dont  need you. :laugh2:




What does that even mean?



Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:

...

Seeing as they were revolting against a tyrannical government, I'd be so blunt as to say you're full of shit and that you're the one "clearly biased by today's crazy political ramblings to the point where you don't understand the founders' motivations for actually forming a government that may one day become tyrannical."

But hey... enjoy your obtuseness.




Again dude, you're missing the big picture. What you're talking about was important to them, but there's no sense in preserving freedom if you don't have a functional military to do it. Remember, there were no telecommincations or cars when the constitution was written. States couldn't quickly communicate needs or news of attacks between each other, and it was vital that everybody be able to defend themselves from attack, especially since they had just started a war with a world power. A village needed a militia because it couldn't call for help. Help wouldn't arrive for days, and an army would take even longer to get there. No militias meant an easy conquest for foreign enemies. A distant future threat from possible tyranny from themselves was not the major focus of the second amendment.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936867 - 07/13/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The founders solution for a tyrannical government was not the second amendment, it was Article I, II and III of the constitution which set up an elected president, elected members of the house, appointed senators, and a unelected judiciary.




It was all of those, including the Second Amendment.

The writings of the founders are numerous and clear. You need merely open your eyes and read them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936868 - 07/13/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Again dude, you're missing the big picture.




Again dude, I'm not.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936873 - 07/13/15 11:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's funny when the views of "the founders" are elevated to messianic importance, the same way that Muslims see hadiths.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21936875 - 07/13/15 11:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
It should be more strict than it is now.



WTF If anything it should be loosened. When people who are trained to see their country men it is nothing more then declaring us "enemy combatants" and stripping our rights from us. Are you people that big of go along get along pussys? Is going to that next festie that important? I am digusted by the lot of you!


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936881 - 07/13/15 11:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Again dude, you're missing the big picture.




Again dude, I'm not.




How about a counter argument or a clarification of what you disagree with then? All you've done to try to support your argument is post a few quotes out of context and call me obtuse.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21936888 - 07/13/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I think it's funny when the views of "the founders" are elevated to messianic importance, the same way that Muslims see hadiths.



How so? Muhamed had some pretty good Ideas as did Our founding fathers.
To blame the men who gave the guidelines is  wrong?


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21936898 - 07/13/15 11:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I think it's funny when the views of "the founders" are elevated to messianic importance, the same way that Muslims see hadiths.




It's funny in a sad way. Those founders should have put a couple amendments in to better public education if they were really so afraid of tyranny. Ignorant people need strong idols to worship.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21936901 - 07/13/15 11:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I think it's funny when the views of "the founders" are elevated to messianic importance, the same way that Muslims see hadiths.




Seeing as they wrote the document... why would their views not matter more than most who couldn't even pass a civics or citizenship exam?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21936908 - 07/13/15 11:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

r00tuuu123 said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I think it's funny when the views of "the founders" are elevated to messianic importance, the same way that Muslims see hadiths.



How so? Muhamed had some pretty good Ideas as did Our founding fathers.
To blame the men who gave the guidelines is  wrong?




Good ideas or no, he was a bigamy-practicing desert warlord whose wisdom was limited by his age. Just like the writers of the Constitution were slave owning white supremacists. That doesn't mean they can't have good ideas but they're not divine and their thoughts were never perfect. Their ideas should be subject to criticism.

Another thing that is funny about the breathless way religious nationalists speak of "the founders" is the fact that they were all really different often had wildly contradicting ideas of how the country should be run and what sort of country it should be. They probably agreed more about the justness of owning slaves and keeping the vote away from women than they did about, say, gun ownership.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936911 - 07/13/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

koods said:
The founders solution for a tyrannical government was not the second amendment, it was Article I, II and III of the constitution which set up an elected president, elected members of the house, appointed senators, and a unelected judiciary.




It was all of those, including the Second Amendment.

The writings of the founders are numerous and clear. You need merely open your eyes and read them.




The founders specifically protected the government against uprisings of citizens. Treason is a constitutional crime.

The constitution allows for the suspension of due process in times of rebellion:
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

The founders seemed to have a very unsympathetic opinion of people rising up against the US government.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936918 - 07/13/15 11:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Again dude, you're missing the big picture.




Again dude, I'm not.




How about a counter argument or a clarification of what you disagree with then? All you've done to try to support your argument is post a few quotes out of context and call me obtuse.




The quotes are accurate (and more than enough to show the foolishness of your position) and obtuse was indeed the correct word choice.

Seeing as they had left their home country because of... wait for it... an oppressive government, I'm sure that they never gave a thought to protecting themselves from yet another oppressive government. 

I mean really... WTF?  :lmafo:

Your opinion on this is worthless. You don't get to re-write history to suit your fantasies.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936925 - 07/13/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

US government can't effectively run the Post Office. The multi billion dollar healthcare.gov was a debacle, at best. Our federally regulated education system is second class to the rest of the world, even by own standards. All politicians take bribes in the form of lobbying to further their own agenda. I could go on with the list of things we entrust with the government that is continually hurting out economy and national prosperity.

...yet liberals continually seem to think throwing more money, more power, more control to the government is going to magically fix anything.

I do logic and math for a living. Liberal logic just doesn't add up. If it looks like shit and smells like shit, well you know how the story goes....


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936928 - 07/13/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

koods said:
The founders solution for a tyrannical government was not the second amendment, it was Article I, II and III of the constitution which set up an elected president, elected members of the house, appointed senators, and a unelected judiciary.




It was all of those, including the Second Amendment.

The writings of the founders are numerous and clear. You need merely open your eyes and read them.




The founders specifically protected the government against uprisings of citizens. Treason is a constitutional crime.

The constitution allows for the suspension of due process in times of rebellion:
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

The founders seemed to have a very unsympathetic opinion of people rising up against the US government.




So says the guy who clearly hasn't spent much time reading their writings.

But hey... you go with that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: daytripper05]
    #21936930 - 07/13/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper05 said:
well you know how the story goes....




Clearly they don't.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936948 - 07/13/15 11:42 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

daytripper05 said:
well you know how the story goes....




Clearly they don't.




I shit you not... Every time I say that in person to a liberal they look at me dead in the eye and say "actually yes, we need to go further down the rabbit hole. We don't give the goverment ENOUGH power to actually make any real changed." Of course by government they just mean liberal democrat presidents. Not the "GOP tea-bagger conservatives" that control both houses of congress....as if everyone that is for limited government is a teaparty conservative.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936953 - 07/13/15 11:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Too all anti-gun people:

You won't convince them with logic. It's an emotional attachment to guns. They don't care about  logic anymore. Throw all the stats and example you want,  it's not gonna make a difference.

They're emo about guns. you can't stop that with logic. Kinda like how a parent will always love his kid even though he a convicted murderer.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936961 - 07/13/15 11:46 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What exactly is wrong with the post office? Considering their mandate to deliver mail to every address in the US, they do a really good job. It's hard to run an efficient operation when they have to compete with commercial delivery services with one hand tied behind their back.
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

koods said:
The founders solution for a tyrannical government was not the second amendment, it was Article I, II and III of the constitution which set up an elected president, elected members of the house, appointed senators, and a unelected judiciary.




It was all of those, including the Second Amendment.

The writings of the founders are numerous and clear. You need merely open your eyes and read them.




The founders specifically protected the government against uprisings of citizens. Treason is a constitutional crime.

The constitution allows for the suspension of due process in times of rebellion:
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

The founders seemed to have a very unsympathetic opinion of people rising up against the US government.




So says the guy who clearly hasn't spent much time reading their writings.

But hey... you go with that.




Their writings are a mix of different and contradictory options. They argued amongst themselves as to what would be included in the constitution  which in the end is the only document that legally matters.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936965 - 07/13/15 11:47 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:

...

The quotes are accurate (and more than enough to show the foolishness of your position) and obtuse was indeed the correct word choice.

Seeing as they had left their home country because of... wait for it... an oppressive government, I'm sure that they never gave a thought to protecting themselves from yet another oppressive government. 

I mean really... WTF?  :lmafo:

Your opinion on this is worthless. You don't get to re-write history to suit your fantasies.





I see you don't know the difference between "inaccurate" and "out of context". Look it up. The only arguments you've put any effort into are personal insults against me, and I didn't even exist when the amendment was written. It's ironic that you're calling me obtuse when I've already stated many times that thought was given to the issue you're pushing, and all you've done is unclearly restate that you have some vague disagreement with my posts and state that I'm obtuse. At least you don't have to bother with rewriting history to suit your fantasies since you'd refuse to read it anyway. You, sir, are obtuse.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936969 - 07/13/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This is essentially where the second amendment protections stand at this time:

"Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons"

scalia's majority opinion in Heller vs DC.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936975 - 07/13/15 11:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Fucking Scalia.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936979 - 07/13/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:

...

The quotes are accurate (and more than enough to show the foolishness of your position) and obtuse was indeed the correct word choice.

Seeing as they had left their home country because of... wait for it... an oppressive government, I'm sure that they never gave a thought to protecting themselves from yet another oppressive government. 

I mean really... WTF?  :lmafo:

Your opinion on this is worthless. You don't get to re-write history to suit your fantasies.





I see you don't know the difference between "inaccurate" and "out of context". Look it up. The only arguments you've put any effort into are personal insults against me, and I didn't even exist when the amendment was written. It's ironic that you're calling me obtuse when I've already stated many times that thought was given to the issue you're pushing, and all you've done is unclearly restate that you have some vague disagreement with my posts and state that I'm obtuse. At least you don't have to bother with rewriting history to suit your fantasies since you'd refuse to read it anyway. You, sir, are obtuse.




Right, because you know better than they.

:laugh2:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936984 - 07/13/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What an absurd notion that ANYBODY living today could know better than the founding fathers, emirite?


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #21936985 - 07/13/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So ironic.

One breath we hear...

"Healthcare is a right! Legalize weed! Prohibition doesn't work! LGBT people deserve equal rights too! Black lives matter!"

Right after...

"We need more gun safety and regulation. Guns kill people! People don't have the right to own guns. Assault rifles (semi-auto rifles with self loading magazines) kill our children!"

Total hypocrisy. Here's an idea... How about we legalize drugs, give gay people equal rights, and let people own guns. More freedom for everyone, because you know... People that break the law and harm people with guns don't give a shit about the law in the first place. People will just get a gun in the same way they do now.

My state already does background checks. If you don't have a damn near perfect record you have to wait like 3-6 weeks for a more details checked. Luckily for me, I can walk into any store and but a gun off the shelf and walk out the door in 30 minutes.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936989 - 07/13/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:

...

The quotes are accurate (and more than enough to show the foolishness of your position) and obtuse was indeed the correct word choice.

Seeing as they had left their home country because of... wait for it... an oppressive government, I'm sure that they never gave a thought to protecting themselves from yet another oppressive government. 

I mean really... WTF?  :lmafo:

Your opinion on this is worthless. You don't get to re-write history to suit your fantasies.





I see you don't know the difference between "inaccurate" and "out of context". Look it up. The only arguments you've put any effort into are personal insults against me, and I didn't even exist when the amendment was written. It's ironic that you're calling me obtuse when I've already stated many times that thought was given to the issue you're pushing, and all you've done is unclearly restate that you have some vague disagreement with my posts and state that I'm obtuse. At least you don't have to bother with rewriting history to suit your fantasies since you'd refuse to read it anyway. You, sir, are obtuse.




Right, because you know better than they.

:laugh2:




They don't even mention the second amendment in those quotes bro. Quit partying and go to class.

EDIT: They loosely reference it under limited context though, so I'll give you your D.


Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/13/15 11:55 AM)


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21937008 - 07/13/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
This is essentially where the second amendment protections stand at this time:

"Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons"

scalia's majority opinion in Heller vs DC.




Your off-topic desperation reeks. You come across as if all here were demanding the right to their own personal atomic warheads.

There are no 'dangerous and unusual' weapons available to private citizens. I can't think of anyone who has expressed a desire for 'felons and the mentally ill' to have access to firearms.

Fortunately, for those able to reason, weapons “in common use at the time” renders your desires moot.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21937009 - 07/13/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Fucking Scalia.




Well, that decision says that it is perfectly fine to ban weapons that are not in common use or are dangerous or unusual. Later he writes that a ban on guns like the M-16 would not necessarily be unconstituional.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21937010 - 07/13/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
What exactly is wrong with the post office? Considering their mandate to deliver mail to every address in the US, they do a really good job. It's hard to run an efficient operation when they have to compete with commercial delivery services with one hand tied behind their back.




Wow dude... really? Do you not read the new about how bad financial shape the post office is in?

Here is just one link of dozens.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/postal-service-faces-100b-debts-and-unfunded-benefits

UPS and Fedex don't have that problem. UPS posted a profit of $1B the first fiscal quarter this year, while the post office continually loses money despite the ever increasing price of a postage stamp.


Edited by daytripper05 (07/13/15 12:12 PM)


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21937015 - 07/13/15 11:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
What an absurd notion that ANYBODY living today could know better than the founding fathers, emirite?




About what they meant when they said it? Yes, that is absurd. How fortunate they documented their opinions as well as they did.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21937018 - 07/13/15 11:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The Constitution is not a body of opinion. :picard:


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: daytripper05]
    #21937019 - 07/13/15 11:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Of course UPS and fedex don't have that problem. They aren't constrained by the post office's mandate to deliver letters to any address in the US.

Good luck getting UPS to deliver your cable bill for $.50


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NotSheekle said
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Edited by koods (07/13/15 12:01 PM)


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21937023 - 07/13/15 12:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
They don't even mention the second amendment in those quotes bro. Quit partying and go to class.

EDIT: They loosely reference it under limited context though, so I'll give you your D.




They don't mention the rights of gays to marry either, yet there it is.

Alas, I can't even give your incomplete reasoning a grade at all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods] * 1
    #21937034 - 07/13/15 12:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Fucking Scalia.




Well, that decision says that it is perfectly fine to ban weapons that are not in common use or are dangerous or unusual. Later he writes that a ban on guns like the M-16 would not necessarily be unconstituional.





M-16's are not readily available to civilians without extensive paperwork and background checks.

The civilian version... AR-15, is however and using the 'in common use' standard... would not be subject to a ban. In 2013 there were an estimated 5 million in private hands. Seems pretty 'common".

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/ar-15/


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21937044 - 07/13/15 12:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
The Constitution is not a body of opinion. :picard:




How incredibly fortunate for American citizens. Of course, honesty should compel you (but likely won't) to notice I didn't say it was a 'body of opinion'.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21937049 - 07/13/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Of course UPS and fedex don't have that problem. They aren't constrained by the post office's mandate to deliver letters to any address in the US.

Good luck getting UPS to deliver your cable bill for $.50




They likely could if there wasn't a monopoly on delivering that type of mail.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: daytripper05]
    #21937050 - 07/13/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper05 said:

...

Total hypocrisy. Here's an idea... How about we legalize drugs, give gay people equal rights, and let people own guns. More freedom for everyone, because you know... People that break the law and harm people with guns don't give a shit about the law in the first place. People will just get a gun in the same way they do now.

My state already does background checks. If you don't have a damn near perfect record you have to wait like 3-6 weeks for a more details checked. Luckily for me, I can walk into any store and but a gun off the shelf and walk out the door in 30 minutes.




Possession of a rifle is legal in every state for sane law-abiding people (some do have hassles attached to the right though). Handguns are legal for open carry and concealed carry with a permit in almost all the states too, but in a few they're basically a privilege in a practical sense. Gun rights are pretty well defended for the most part. You definitely do not want psychotic people to be running around with concealed weapons though. Don't go crazy.

My state does background checks too, but if you have a concealed carry permit, you've already had a background check, so it's no big deal. When I went to get my permit it was in my wallet within 10 minutes of arriving at the sheriffs' office. If we want to diminish violence, we should work on real socioeconomic problems that actually increase violent crime. Reducing poverty would be a good start.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21937060 - 07/13/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
The Constitution is not a body of opinion. :picard:




How incredibly fortunate for American citizens. Of course, honesty should compel you (but likely won't) to notice I didn't say it was a 'body of opinion'.




Observation might compel her to notice that you didn't say much of anything at all.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21937066 - 07/13/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
The Constitution is not a body of opinion. :picard:




How incredibly fortunate for American citizens. Of course, honesty should compel you (but likely won't) to notice I didn't say it was a 'body of opinion'.




No, but you did suggest that the opinions of the founders regarding the proper execution of the constitution should matter more than the opinion of even a knowledgeable and rational present-day observer who disagrees with those opinions.

The founding fathers are not "better" than anyone living today and the constitution should be interpreted through the lens of present-day reality, not the far-flung fancy of an eighteenth-century dandy.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/13/15 12:25 PM)


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21937067 - 07/13/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

At least I provided quotes and links.

You should think before clicking on 'continue'. Why start now though?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21937073 - 07/13/15 12:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
No, but you did suggest that the opinions of the founders regarding the proper execution of the constitution should matter more than the opinion of even a knowledgeable and rational present-day observer who disagrees with those opinions.




Yes, who would know better about what they meant? Those who wrote it... or those who along come centuries later? The opinions of the writers carry a good deal more weight.


Quote:

The founding fathers were not "better" than anyone living today and the constitution should be interpreted through the lens of present-day realities and needs.




Not even remotely. It should be interpreted as written.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21937077 - 07/13/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Of course UPS and fedex don't have that problem. They aren't constrained by the post office's mandate to deliver letters to any address in the US.

Good luck getting UPS to deliver your cable bill for $.50




I pay my cable internet (don't have cable) bill online bro. Times need to change. Either the government programs gets into the year 2015 or they go bankrupt like any other private enterprise.

Did you know... The post office wouldn't even be open today if it weren't for junk mail. That's right... Private companies paying post office to send their junk mail is keeping the entire thing afloat. Roughly 80% of all mail sent through USPS is junk mail.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21937083 - 07/13/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

How you reconcile this

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
No, but you did suggest that the opinions of the founders regarding the proper execution of the constitution should matter more than the opinion of even a knowledgeable and rational present-day observer who disagrees with those opinions.




Yes, who would know better about what they meant? Those who wrote it... or those who along come centuries later? The opinions of the writers carry a good deal more weight.




with this

Quote:

Quote:

The founding fathers were not "better" than anyone living today and the constitution should be interpreted through the lens of present-day realities and needs.




Not even remotely. It should be interpreted as written.




is absolutely beyond my comprehension.


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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21937085 - 07/13/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

A great many obvious things are.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21937088 - 07/13/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:

...

Quote:

The founding fathers were not "better" than anyone living today and the constitution should be interpreted through the lens of present-day realities and needs.







Not even remotely. It should be interpreted as written.




It should be read in the context that it was written in, and it should be reflected on with modern concerns and conditions in mind.



Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
At least I provided quotes and links.

You should think before clicking on 'continue'. Why start now though?




At this point I suggest we settle our dispute with a founding-fathers-style pistol duel. It's what they would have done, so it must be right. You seem to like quoting Alexander Hamilton, so you can be him.


Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/13/15 12:20 PM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21937090 - 07/13/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Oh wow, another great debate with LDS closed by getting called stupid. You truly are a master. :whatever:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21937103 - 07/13/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'd be unlikely to allow myself to be shot.

In the meantime, I'll simply suggest you read a good deal more.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #21937104 - 07/13/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Don't worry. He doesn't know it yet, but he's going to lose the pistol duel.


EDIT: :lol: That's pretty much what Hamilton said before he lost his last (and maybe first) pistol duel in real history. That was beautiful, LVS. I'd almost believe it was intentional.


Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/13/15 12:24 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21937109 - 07/13/15 12:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Oh wow, another great debate with LDS closed by getting called stupid. You truly are a master.




The debate was won long before that. Also, I didn't call you anything. I simply agreed you have an inability to comprehend simple concepts.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21937117 - 07/13/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

How disingenuous of you to exclude the wanking graem.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21937122 - 07/13/15 12:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

He's still figuring out how to quote things in context. Go easy on him. He's got a duel coming up that he's not prepared for.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21937129 - 07/13/15 12:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

A perusal of most of my responses to all posters will show that it's my SOP to not quote graemlins.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: daytripper05]
    #21937374 - 07/13/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper05 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Of course UPS and fedex don't have that problem. They aren't constrained by the post office's mandate to deliver letters to any address in the US.

Good luck getting UPS to deliver your cable bill for $.50




I pay my cable internet (don't have cable) bill online bro. Times need to change. Either the government programs gets into the year 2015 or they go bankrupt like any other private enterprise.

Did you know... The post office wouldn't even be open today if it weren't for junk mail. That's right... Private companies paying post office to send their junk mail is keeping the entire thing afloat. Roughly 80% of all mail sent through USPS is junk mail.




Did you know that the post office is required to operate by law even if it has no paying customers. What you don't  seem to understand, is that the USPS offers services at a huge loss because it is mandated to do so.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisibledaytripper05
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21937493 - 07/13/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No, I understand that completely that. Hence, what others said about the force monopoly. If a private sector company were so far in debt that it couldn't pay it's employee benefits and pensions, it would get a government bailout. When the government dose it, it's excusable because it's the law. The solution is obvious. Close these bloated, oversized, overfunded, inefficient branches of the government and let the free market do a better job.

...I know, I know, evil capitalist corporations are incapable of performing the same roles as the government.


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Posts: 4,563
Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: daytripper05]
    #21937511 - 07/13/15 02:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper05 said:
No, I understand that completely that. Hence, what others said about the force monopoly. If a private sector company were so far in debt that it couldn't pay it's employee benefits and pensions, it would get a government bailout. When the government dose it, it's excusable because it's the law. The solution is obvious. Close these bloated, oversized, overfunded, inefficient branches of the government and let the free market do a better job.

...I know, I know, evil capitalist corporations are incapable of performing the same roles as the government.




Ya, the chief responsibility of the post office is not to maximize profits... It's kinda there for more important reasons...


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21937518 - 07/13/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Let's clarify your statement. They are actually mandated to break even.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-johnson/you-should-be-outraged-by_b_2666451.html

However, due to the incompetence of big government and post office management, it's not really possible for them to do so.

While the HuffPo article attempts to blame the Republicans (I know, what a surprise) it fails to mention that the Democrats never did anything about it when they were in control (one of these days perhaps they and their writers will mature a bit). Both major parties deserve a boot up the ass over this.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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