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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936529 - 07/13/15 09:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think you misunderstood my post. All those quotes are in line with what I said. Maybe you missed the edit I added " (EDIT: A militia could also defend against domestic attacks too, I guess.)". If you're point is that protecting the states against direct attack or oppression from the federal government is the primary point of the second amendment, then you're wrong. It was certainly a consideration, but the main idea is to leave states the power to defend themselves from more obvious threats, like the standing armies of foreign nations.


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Invisible404
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936532 - 07/13/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ok yeah you're right, that would fall under "destructive devices" which includes anti-tank rounds (larger than .50 caliber) and considering the bore of the main gun of any tank is larger than .50 and well... Used for anti-tank purposes i'm guessing that's the category it falls under


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: 404]
    #21936536 - 07/13/15 09:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I dunno i dont really care what people decide to own as long as there not using them to harm others. Guns are fun as shit to shoot but i dont really feel like i need to own one so i dont. Probably pick up a .22 eventually just to have something cheap to shoot around with when i go camping and shit.


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork] * 1
    #21936538 - 07/13/15 09:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No, though I missed your edit while preparing my reply, that is not the primary point of the Second.

The main idea is to leave people in possession of firearms for whatever reason they need. Tyrannical government over-reach simply being the most frequently mentioned.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936567 - 07/13/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
No, though I missed your edit while preparing my reply, that is not the primary point of the Second.

The main idea is to leave people in possession of firearms for whatever reason they need. Tyrannical government over-reach simply being the most frequently mentioned.




Tyrannical government over-reach is popular topic today, and it was back then too for obvious reasons, but a major part of the idea behind forming a constitution and bill of rights was to unify the states to better protect them from foreign threats like Great Britain. In general our military power was pretty shoddy back then, and the states really needed the ability to organize their own defenses when it wasn't in the overall country's best interests. If you look at our early military history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States), you'll see that lots of our wars/military-actions were really small scale. Sometimes they only involved a few ships. Pirates were a significant threat to individual states, and people really felt threatened by that kind of stuff. I'm sure we could dig up books of quotes about foreign threats being a major problem. Even some of your quotes talk about standing armies in general, and those are certainly meant to include foreign ones. At the time we were thinking about safe guards from our new federal government's military, but we put that power in place to protect us from foreign military powers, and the amendment's intention reflects both of those concerns pretty fairly IMO.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936579 - 07/13/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You can repeat that as often as you like. It won't suddenly become correct.

The quotes and writings of those that were there are what they are. They say what they say.

Unless you have something new...


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #21936608 - 07/13/15 09:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

here is why gun control will never work





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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21936626 - 07/13/15 10:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

404 said:
Ok yeah you're right, that would fall under "destructive devices" which includes anti-tank rounds (larger than .50 caliber) and considering the bore of the main gun of any tank is larger than .50 and well... Used for anti-tank purposes i'm guessing that's the category it falls under


Yeah but the 2nd says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" It says nothing about "destructive devices"
or  anti-tank rounds (larger than .50 caliber  So any thing you can lay your hands on could be an arm. I could kill you or maim you with the fork on a swiss army knife would that make it a "destructive device" I'd like to see "your" definition of a destructive device. Back up the middle of the road claims you are making. the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936675 - 07/13/15 10:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You can repeat that as often as you like. It won't suddenly become correct.

The quotes and writings of those that were there are what they are. They say what they say.

Unless you have something new...




You cherry picked those quotes, and they don't remotely represent a complete picture of what was going on. I promise you, those guys had lots of stuff to talk about that wasn't fear of their own tyrannical government. Your background in early american history is clearly biased by today's crazy political ramblings to the point where you don't understand the founders' motivations for actually forming a government that may one day become tyrannical. Most of the legal writing was put in place to address existing problems, critical thought about ways to avoid domestic tyranny was included to try to fix problems with the previous methods of forming and running governments. The second amendment was put there to make both the state and federal governments better able to deal with military crisis. It's there to increase military power and coverage.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936684 - 07/13/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You can repeat that as often as you like. It won't suddenly become correct.

The quotes and writings of those that were there are what they are. They say what they say.

Unless you have something new...




You cherry picked those quotes, and they don't remotely represent a complete picture of what was going on. I promise you, those guys had lots of stuff to talk about that wasn't fear of their own tyrannical government.




then why did they start a revolt against their tyranical government?


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936696 - 07/13/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short, and after they signed it and mailed it, they were talking about a foreign government.


Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/13/15 10:25 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936698 - 07/13/15 10:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.




and why were they forming a government, wasnt there already a government?


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936717 - 07/13/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

They didn't like their government, so they turned it into a foreign government. I already agreed that there were serious efforts put in  place to correct problems they saw in their old government's use of power. They still felt they needed a government that was mostly like old one in terms of providing military power, trade regulations, and many other important governmental powers. That's why they wrote a new constitution and formed a new government. The primary responsibility of government is not to avoid tyranny, and I think all the founding fathers would have agreed that a tyrannical government is better than an anarchy. They thought they could do a better job by being careful to only take the freedoms that they needed to take, and they were almost definitely right. That doesn't mean that the 2nd amendment is there primarily so we can revolt when we feel like it.

And I made that last edit in my previous post too late. Damn.


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936728 - 07/13/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.


Short Who are you to say? Read the whole thing. Your rights to post your opine here is a result of that document Whether the bill of rights or the Pre-Amble Maybe you shuold read it in it's entirenty. The simple fact remains on the second ammendment It was put in place to defend against tyrany of any kind. "hey they got guns" Maybe it should have been the 1st ammendment. But hind sight being 20/20 .  Sometimes the power of the sword is greater than the power of the pen.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21936734 - 07/13/15 10:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

We are so far beyond the original intent of the second ammendment. There are no militias organized the way the founders intended: subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed. Deer hunters are not attached to a government that organizes and regulates a militia.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936736 - 07/13/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This tyranny line is NRA PR bullshit.


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NotSheekle said
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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21936765 - 07/13/15 10:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

d I think all the founding fathers would have agreed that a tyrannical government is better than an anarchy. They thought they could do a better job by being careful to only take the freedoms that they needed to take, and they were almost definitely right. That doesn't mean that the 2nd amendment is there primarily so we can revolt when we feel like it. WTF Plannet do you live on ? :feelsbadman: It has nothing to do when we feel like it. What did you learn in school 3rd grade basics? I may sound like a troll here, but cmon man be realistic Our country in it's purest form would be utopia. However the used car sailsmen  that lobby the government hold a lot of pull. I May sound paranoid but I quite assure you I am not.When the duly elected representatives start to fuck us it is too late to take action.


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21936771 - 07/13/15 10:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You'll notice we don't treat our territories with the same rights we have either. The
Quote:

r00tuuu123 said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.


Short Who are you to say? Read the whole thing. Your rights to post your opine here is a result of that document Whether the bill of rights or the Pre-Amble Maybe you shuold read it in it's entirenty. The simple fact remains on the second ammendment It was put in place to defend against tyrany of any kind. "hey they got guns" Maybe it should have been the 1st ammendment. But hind sight being 20/20 .  Sometimes the power of the sword is greater than the power of the pen.




It's only a few pages long, man, and most of it is bitching about offenses the king committed. I'm not knocking it, it's one of my favorite fuck you statements, but it is short.

I don't know how else to say this. We formed the USA to form a more perfect union of states that required individual military power to adequately deal with military threats. We felt that unity between the states was very important, and nobody wanted it to be able to break down at the drop of a hat. Everybody agreed that militias were vital to the security of the whole nation and the individual states, that's why they get a special mention. It's more about national security than it is about being able to start a revolt when states are unhappy with the federal government. at the time, Revolutions were very uncommon and if you read the page or two of bitching in the declaration of independence, you'll see that the founders felt revolt was justified only under VERY extreme conditions.


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: koods]
    #21936775 - 07/13/15 10:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
This tyranny line is NRA PR bullshit.



:thatsinteresting:


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:kingcrankey: Please report me to a Mod for hurting your punk ass hippie feelings :flipthebird: And all time Champion thread killer.:thatsayes:


Edited by r00tuuu123 (07/13/15 10:58 AM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Guns control, where do you stand? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21936808 - 07/13/15 11:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
You'll notice we don't treat our territories with the same rights we have either. The
Quote:

r00tuuu123 said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Most of their talk/writing was about forming a government. The declaration of independence was short.


Short Who are you to say? Read the whole thing. Your rights to post your opine here is a result of that document Whether the bill of rights or the Pre-Amble Maybe you shuold read it in it's entirenty. The simple fact remains on the second ammendment It was put in place to defend against tyrany of any kind. "hey they got guns" Maybe it should have been the 1st ammendment. But hind sight being 20/20 .  Sometimes the power of the sword is greater than the power of the pen.




It's only a few pages long, man, and most of it is bitching about offenses the king committed. I'm not knocking it, it's one of my favorite fuck you statements, but it is short.

I don't know how else to say this. We formed the USA to form a more perfect union of states that required individual military power to adequately deal with military threats. We felt that unity between the states was very important, and nobody wanted it to be able to break down at the drop of a hat. Everybody agreed that militias were vital to the security of the whole nation and the individual states, that's why they get a special mention. It's more about national security than it is about being able to start a revolt when states are unhappy with the federal government. at the time, Revolutions were very uncommon and if you read the page or two of bitching in the declaration of independence, you'll see that the founders felt revolt was justified only under VERY extreme conditions.




The constitution takes a very hard line against rising up against the government: the only crime specifically mentioned in the document is taking up arms against the US AKA treason.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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