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Late2theparty
Rookie



Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 58
Loc: Australia
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Preliminary - Automated MSG tek
#21931318 - 07/11/15 11:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm already bracing myself for the flame-war on automation, so I guess I'll start by trying to validate myself to you guys haha
Also keep in mind this is a design at this point, and has details to be finalised.
This is a tek designed to be utterly self-sufficient, while relying on many of the principles that make SGFC and Monos superior to automated systems (Martha etc.). There is an enormous opposition to automated systems, and most mentions on these boards will get a "fuck you, just build a SGFC noob" response. In the spirit of the entire subculture around here, I think being a little more open minded would be beneficial. Many of the automated grows I have seen have suffered due to the vulnerabilities of their closed-off boxes with no airflow, or over-exuberant fan usage drying the substrate. People point out these short falls and scream "JUST BUILD A SGFC AND MIST/FAN A FEW TIMES A DAY NOT THAT HARD". In many ways they have a point, but what is un-automatable about this process? In short, what I propose is an MSG (Mono-shotgun hybrid) which is misted (humidified) and fanned automatically.
Now at this point I should say - I have seen most-all components of this design used before, but hardly one of these included all in successful combination.
This particular tek will be intended for relatively closed off areas, with little FAE (This includes cupboards and closets, essentially in areas other than out on a desk or floor in a room). Theoretically in an open room with a fan, a Mono is entirely set and forget, however is not suited to a closed area. A shotgun design will still be used, so some level of empty volume in the area around the tub would be beneficial. As such, this may end up as one of the much revered, but (often considered) unrealistic stealth grows. The design should be set and forget, after a few days of initial calibration. NO, this design is not a replacement for SGFC/Monos/MSG teks if a person is available to fan and mist several times a day. NO it is not a replacement for a Mono where the circumstances would suit it. This tek fills a small, but present niche, as well as satisfies academic curiosity.

Basic components:
- Tub drilled in the Hybrid MSG pattern as per Doc_T's fabulous tek http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13160541#13160541
Bubbleh humidifier, as per "Teh Fire-and-4get Bubbleh Humidifier" by The Honeypotty http://www.shroomery.org/9789/Teh-Fire-and-4get-Bubbleh-Humidifier - Ultrasonic humidifier - Aquarium air pump - Plastic tubing - anything else listed in that tek
- Computer cooling fan [not pictured in overview pic]
- Electronic digital/modified-analogue timers (ideally three, but I'll be writing this with only one in mind) [not pictured in overview pic]
- Lightbulb, preferably CFL 6500K [not pictured in overview pic]

At a certain interval (heavily dependent on environmental circumstances), the ultrasonic mister, as well as the fishtank pump will be activated. This will insert humidified air into the container*. Under ideal circumstances, the fan will fire up a immediately after the predetermined time that the humidifier has run for. Due to the cost of timers for such an unproven tek, only one will be used to simultaneously fire up both (unless someone knows of a reliable delay system?). This fan will cause evaporation of the mist off the surface of the substrate, stimulating pinning. * [This air will likely not need to be as water-laden as the mist from a spray nozzle, as with other Monotub designs, the substrate DOES ALREADY contain a decent amount of moisture, and adding more is to allow for evaporation, not so much to replace lost moisture.]
A small-wattage CFL light will be used just beside the computer fan, on a 12/12 cycle (the use of the third timer, or can be done manually at minimal effort). While in a confined space, the heat of this light may be a concern for some, for others it may be beneficial as it will increase ambient air temperatures, which may initially be unsuitably cold without intervention. For added heating, an oil heater (for example) on a thermostat could be added, or perhaps an aquarium heater added to the Bubbleh Tek container.
The automated processes will be used more conservatively with this tek, as opposed to other automated teks, due to the reliance on a tried and tested, shotgun design. This will hopefully reduce the impact of any problems previously seen with automated tubs. After a few days of calibration, an appropriate level (or balance, if using two timers) could be reached to be very similar to a manual misting and fanning. If fans are too powerful, manually block part of their surface area. If fans are not powerful enough, use more. Common sense.
Note: I will probably be using trays, because I like them. A Monotub type method would be perfectly suitable.
RESULTS, AND POSSIBLY IMAGES MAY BE ADDED IN THE COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS, STAY TUNED AND PLEASE PROVIDE FEEDBACK AND CONSTRUCTIVE* CRITICISM. *note the word constructive, I can deal with criticism, but let's not degenerate this into a flamewar against automated grow chambers, please be open minded, and respectful.
Edited by Late2theparty (07/11/15 11:13 PM)
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OPB
Wanderer

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 198
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
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I buit almost this exact design. Mine does however up the complexity a bit as I use temp and humidity controllers so that it is truly set it and forget it. Otherwise though it is insanely identical to your drawings. Pc fan on top and all!
-------------------- "Wasn't that fun"
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Late2theparty
Rookie



Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 58
Loc: Australia
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: OPB]
#21931348 - 07/11/15 11:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I like your style . I feel like this is just common sense, and yet the lack of a dedicated tek for it has led people to assume they all have major design flaws like the diagrams and other teks available.
How were your results, by the way?
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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In defense of the haters i of course need to mention a few things.These systems of course can be dialed in to work. Its often beyond the novice who is entertaining the idea as they usually don't understand the organism well enough to give it what it wants. A veteran could do it but often have no interest in doing so. The reason is that they feel its useless to design something overly complex and costly to create a "set and forget" automated system when passive systems are already set and forget.
When I have many experiments going, why in the hell would I spend money on a dozen air pumps and timers etc, when I can buy a dozen tubs, some polyfil and drill six holes.
Anyway fill your boots. You will guaranteed learn a few things from it. Good luck
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OPB
Wanderer

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 198
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
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I'm still tuning but there is no reason, with enough control, an automated system couldn't out perform a sgfc. The real question is though...will it make enough difference to be worth it haha. That remains to be seen and I think most people will be better served with the old standby sgfc. I just like to tinker and be a mad scientist.
I decided against plumbing the mister in with tubes to avoid leaks. I also didn't want to have a drain that I had to monitor. Instead I just have a reservoir tub with water, heater, air stone, and fogger. On top of this I place my fruiting chamber. Holes are drilled on the bottom of the fruiting chamber and the lid of the reservoir and the two were ziptied and caulked together. When I need humidity the fogger kicks on and the airstone forces the humid air up into the fruiting chamber. When humidity collects on the walls and runs back down it just drains back to the reservoir. The aquarium heater heats the reservoir which heats the air and fog to maintain constant temperature in the fruiting chamber.
It's not currently in use but here are some pictures to give you an idea. The orange box is the controller and has 4 outlets on back which switch on and off based on the probes in the fruiting chamber.

Allergen filter for pc fan


Fan control. Turns on 20 times a day for a few minutes.

Port for wires and tubing...nerd stuff

Here are all the reservoir electronics and the air stone. The PVC slides into the port and the balloon holds in any moisture. I did this so the electronics are easily removable.

I've had great success with it though it hasn't made the mighty SGFC obsolete yet. Like I said it's for fun. It does come in handy when you have to be gone. I was out of town for over a week and came back to my chamber just like I left it other than really needing a harvest!
It's cool to listen to it humm along and switch things on and off if nothing else.
Edit: I hope I'm not jacking the thread it's just super similar in design so I thought I'd add it.
-------------------- "Wasn't that fun"
Edited by OPB (07/12/15 12:11 AM)
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thoraxx
Wizard


Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 580
Loc: Bavaria
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: OPB]
#21931891 - 07/12/15 02:09 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ive used a similar setup, but my sonic humidifier already has a built in fan which is kinda neat, all connected to a glass terrarium Didnt work too well for cakes, but bulk trays did ok
To be honest its just fun to experiment like that, when i find a good isolate and perfect my inocc tek ill just build a bunch of monotubs and stack them in the cellar Cant beat those for semi-bulk production, it only gets more convenient when you go pro and outfit an entire room with racks and climate control
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OPB
Wanderer

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 198
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: thoraxx]
#21933151 - 07/12/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've also moved to monotubs but I keep this around for when I have less grain ready than required for a Mono so I just make a tray.
-------------------- "Wasn't that fun"
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Munchauzen


Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,342
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you keep saying things like self-sufficient and automated but I don't think you know what they mean.
Edited by Munchauzen (07/12/15 12:35 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: Munchauzen]
#21933329 - 07/12/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think the optic imaging to digital interface system to determine if the cakes want more or less moisture in the form of misting would be quite difficult. if you could make a passive or analog solution to in some way judge if the misting was even necessary.
you could measure co2 o2 RH at the surface and in the surrounding chamber, and flow dynamics for the air in and around your chamber but even still I bet you couldn't fit a formula for appropriate misting to that.
Or you could just play around and get it lucky. but if you want full automation something is going to have to be rigged like a toilet float to auto fill reservoirs and all that.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: bodhisatta]
#21933343 - 07/12/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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If people took the time to actually track the BE they get with these things they would punch themselves right in the junk. The best automated grows I have seen are all GH and IMO that is overkill for cubes.
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kushroom



Registered: 12/04/14
Posts: 588
Loc: I'm lost
Last seen: 4 months, 11 days
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21933941 - 07/12/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Im not going to hate but i gotta say this tek seems alot like an diy greenhouse build.
-------------------- :/
 All submitted posts are by Someone Who Isn't Me (SWIM) - and in any event are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated fictitious lies.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: kushroom]
#21933977 - 07/12/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Essentially it is, it just has far less space and will be harder to keep from being over saturated due to the small area. One major issue I see in the design already is the mist coming from above. That is going to soak the hell out of everything. In a GH with tiers and a lot of vertical space its easier to prevent this but in this set up the fog is just going to drench everything. Going to be tricky to dial in.
Also short bursts might not work because if the RH fluctuates up then down to far to fast, expect to see exploding fruits. They will literally explode apart. Believe me, I have tried to make stuff like this work. I did eventually, then decided the whole thing was a pain in the ass and switched completely to monotubs.
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FreeWorldOrder


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 2,002
Loc: Indiana, USA
Last seen: 8 days, 7 hours
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21934007 - 07/12/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I made an automated, semi-self sufficient, (had to add water occasionally, grow chamber that I used in an unheated room during the winter when it was freezing. It was more out of necessity at the time. The chamber worked well enough to produce some nice grows with decent flushes.
PS - I already had all of the equipment minus a timer and $5 US humidifier that was given to me by a friend.
BUT, it didn't work as well as a SGFC or regular mono-tub design.
Mine could have been dialed in much better knowing what I know now through the learning process and needs of the organism. (like Pastywhyte points out).
All in all, like stated, it is easier and way cheaper to buy some totes.
Good luck...
-------------------- "They who can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin Lets Grow Mushrooms Videos PastyWhyte's Easy Agar TEK Agar's Liquid Inoculant TEK
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Late2theparty
Rookie



Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 58
Loc: Australia
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21935555 - 07/12/15 11:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: One major issue I see in the design already is the mist coming from above. That is going to soak the hell out of everything.
Seems odd that you would find this an issue, as it is literally the exact process of misting. Assuming you read the part of the writeup that suggested having this system on a timer, I don't see how that is a 'major issue', as it is already in a shotgun type design, plus with fanning after that "soaking", encouraging evaporation.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Timers are terrible for mist schedule its not very often that you need to mist the same times or as often from one day to another. A lot of days you may need no misting at all
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Late2theparty said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: One major issue I see in the design already is the mist coming from above. That is going to soak the hell out of everything.
Seems odd that you would find this an issue, as it is literally the exact process of misting. Assuming you read the part of the writeup that suggested having this system on a timer, I don't see how that is a 'major issue', as it is already in a shotgun type design, plus with fanning after that "soaking", encouraging evaporation.
Its not the exact same process as misting. Misting is done for a few seconds as needed with a bottle. Fog creates droplets far smaller in size yet they will quickly saturate a sub And the timer don't care if it needs it or not. I have already been there, dialed it in, then switched to mono tubs. Go ahead and try it. You will see that I'm right.
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Late2theparty
Rookie



Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 58
Loc: Australia
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21935679 - 07/12/15 11:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
Late2theparty said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: One major issue I see in the design already is the mist coming from above. That is going to soak the hell out of everything.
Seems odd that you would find this an issue, as it is literally the exact process of misting. Assuming you read the part of the writeup that suggested having this system on a timer, I don't see how that is a 'major issue', as it is already in a shotgun type design, plus with fanning after that "soaking", encouraging evaporation.
Its not the exact same process as misting. Misting is done for a few seconds as needed with a bottle. Fog creates droplets far smaller in size yet they will quickly saturate a sub And the timer don't care if it needs it or not. I have already been there, dialed it in, then switched to mono tubs. Go ahead and try it. You will see that I'm right.
I bow to your experience on this one. I would have thought one minute of misting (which would have included the time pumping only air, before the ultrasonic mister had accumulated any mist) would constitute even less than a manual misting. With you being quite confident this system would not work, what variation would you consider least disastrous?
-Having the mister increasing the humidity in the whole cabinet (volume roughly double that of the tub) -Having the mister output below the level of the trays,with ample drainage? -Having either of the above on all the time, or only transiently?
And I know, the easiest option is the Monotub. But I really would like to mess around with this as a idea. I never quite got the hang of monotubs, always required fanning for me (NOT a reason to discount them, simply an observation).
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OPB
Wanderer

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 198
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
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I believe what he is saying is that when you mist manually you don't do it blindly. When you mist you look at the chamber and if it doesn't need it you don't mist. Or if it really needs it you mist more. These changes in misting requirements are caused by many factors including changes in the weather, the time of year, etc. Unless your house has a lab grade environment control system it will fluctuate a lot. A timer can never take this fluctuation into account and will just turn on and off at predetermined times no matter if the substrate is bone dry or dripping wet. At this point you spend more time adjusting the mister than you would have spent misting.
This is why I opted for a humidity controller and even then I still watch and occasionally mist.
Pasty please correct me if I misunderstood your intentions.
-------------------- "Wasn't that fun"
Edited by OPB (07/13/15 12:25 AM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: OPB]
#21936086 - 07/13/15 05:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Your close. Its true that we can visually see more of whats going on than any system can. One thing that your missing yourself is that the humidity in the chamber is far less important than the microclimate happening on the substrate surface. You don't want really high RH all the time in the chamber because you first need some evaporation off the substrate (which can't happen if the chamber is saturated all the time). Also with foggers the size of the water droplets are far smaller, they have no surface tension. This means that every single nook and cranny of your sub becomes saturated. This is not good and inhibits performance.
Look guys, I understand the desire to mad scientist some stuff up. I did it myself when I started. But eventually I decided I wanted big results, not bid contraptions. If you really must have something that needs to be automated then do a few grows with a SGFC or monotub to get a feel for what the organisim actually wants. Then build a greenhouse. That way you will actually be able to have some idea what to look for when you dial it in. Tho most who do that end up deciding that the GH is not worth the hassle and stick to the monotubs.
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OPB
Wanderer

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 198
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
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Re: Preliminary - Automated MSG tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21936842 - 07/13/15 11:14 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Your close. Its true that we can visually see more of whats going on than any system can. One thing that your missing yourself is that the humidity in the chamber is far less important than the microclimate happening on the substrate surface. You don't want really high RH all the time in the chamber because you first need some evaporation off the substrate (which can't happen if the chamber is saturated all the time). Also with foggers the size of the water droplets are far smaller, they have no surface tension. This means that every single nook and cranny of your sub becomes saturated. This is not good and inhibits performance.
Look guys, I understand the desire to mad scientist some stuff up. I did it myself when I started. But eventually I decided I wanted big results, not bid contraptions. If you really must have something that needs to be automated then do a few grows with a SGFC or monotub to get a feel for what the organisim actually wants. Then build a greenhouse. That way you will actually be able to have some idea what to look for when you dial it in. Tho most who do that end up deciding that the GH is not worth the hassle and stick to the monotubs.
I see and yes I agree. Like I was saying the sgfc and mono are still the standard. For me this was just for fun.
-------------------- "Wasn't that fun"
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