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OfflineXiaoYi
Zhu Ren


Registered: 05/17/15
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V-Tek invitro Casing
    #21929813 - 07/11/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Greetings all,

I'm preparing to case a couple of V-Tek style RGS containers and fruit them in a SGFC. Violet himself advocates a potting soil casing layer, but I've found potting soil to be an unpopular casing material here on the shroomery. so I decided to try casing my containers with 50/50+ from what I've gathered this is how it's done:

I have Jiffy mix seed starter (no fertilizer) to which I will add verm to make it an even 50/50 Mix of Verm/Peat.

Now I understand that JiffyMix is ph balanced around 6.5 so I will calculate the appropriate amount of lime to bring that up to around 7.5 (I have a soil ph Test Kit)

I will also add gypsum at a 10% ratio to peat by volume however I've read conflicting information as to whether Gypsum raises, lowers, or has no effect whatsoever on ph. I'd appreciate if someone could clear the air.

finally when I have a 50/50 mix with a ph ~7.5 I will pasteurize it before applying to my colonized RGS containers (this is invitro-style) and popping them in the sgfc.

This is what I've come up with after about 3 hours of reading on the forums, if anyone sees anything that could be tweaked please inform me

Thanks!

******UPDATE 7/24/2015**********

*UPDATE*

Hello guys, I just wanted to update in case anyone was interested in how this worked out.

Tall container cased with Verm/Gypsum fruited invitro style* first flush yielded ~50 grams




50/50+ cased containers fruited in SGFC developing pins*




and the small Mini-Round* 50/50+ casing



And here's my first pf cakes on their second flush:

Left side is Golden Teacher and the right side with 3 mushrooms is Amazonian.


Amazonian closeup


Thanks guys, I'd love to hear any suggestions.


Edited by XiaoYi (07/24/15 07:41 PM)


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21929823 - 07/11/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

gypsum doesn't do nearly anything for pH :thumbup:

otherwise you're set. potting soil can work as a casing and I've used it before but I personally like to use straight vermiculite these days.


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OfflineXiaoYi
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21929900 - 07/11/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks a lot!

I actually posted on Violets thread asking if straight vermiculite would work for this, but I was unable to get an answer from anyone. I have 3 containers ready to go so I will case two in 50/50 and one in verm an see how it goes. Thanks again!


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21929947 - 07/11/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:rockon:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21930620 - 07/11/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Where have you seen that soil is unpopular? It's not commonly suggested, but I haven't seen it suggested against.


--------------------
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OfflineXiaoYi
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Violet]
    #21938039 - 07/13/15 04:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry haven't been on the forums for a while.

While researching casing layers and different variations I often saw people advocating verm/coir or 50/50+ casing layers and one thread in particular (which I'll link to if I can find it) where a few people had problems with trich on potting soil. Now that I think about it they may have been using soil straight from the bag, without any prep. I'm just being overly cautious as I'm still new to this.

Anyways after messing around with pasteurizing the 50/50+ casing, I can definitely see the merit in your potting soil prep technique as it is a lot faster and convenient. I'll be sure to try it in the future.

---As an aside I'll be applying those 50/50+ casings today. I'll be sure to update when I start getting pins and such.


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OfflineRictus
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21938147 - 07/13/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I would just suggest getting oven safe turkey bags and bake the amount of verm you would like to use at 325F for at least 30 minutes. I have read it is recommend to bake it wet. If your going to bake it moistened make sure it can ventilate built up vapor or you'll have a mess on your hands.  It works if you bake it dry. Standard process to dry sterilize is 2 hours at 320F, but this is over kill. When you pick up the Turkey bags grab a gallon of distilled water and add directly to the turkey bag until field capacity is met, before or after cooking.

I have read of people having Trich from coir, a 50/50 coir verm sounds like a good casing. I can't imagine a casing like that not working. You might as well just sterilize the coir and verm at the same time in the oven if you go this routine and premix them. Can you post a link to the tek your talking about?


Edited by Rictus (07/13/15 04:55 PM)


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Rictus]
    #21938198 - 07/13/15 04:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rictus said:
Standard process to dry sterilize is 2 hours at 320F, but this is over kill. When you pick up the Turkey bags grab a gallon of distilled water and add directly to the turkey bag until field capacity is met, before or after cooking.

I have read of people having Trich from coir, a 50/50 coir verm sound like a good casing.




in what universe is that standard procedure? :stars:

I suggest you grow more and advice less for a littlewhile :crazy:


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OfflineRictus
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: spacechildo]
    #21938234 - 07/13/15 05:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That is standard for medical. What else did I say wrong according to you?

V-Tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19167498


Edited by Rictus (07/13/15 05:06 PM)


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Rictus]
    #21938270 - 07/13/15 05:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

medical what? no one sterilizes verm for 2 hrs in an oven.
distilled water. :thumbdown:
coir grows trich? :lol: very little wants to germinate on coir, whatever grows in your spawn isn't your subs fault.

you're just generally all over the place. thought I should say something. 100 lurkers for every poster.


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Rictus]
    #21938275 - 07/13/15 05:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm a little confused, someone please help me out. If op is fruiting invitro, what is the SGFC for?


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OfflineXiaoYi
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Rictus]
    #21938294 - 07/13/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Rictus-

From my understanding it isn't necessary to sterilize plain vermiculite as it's non-nutritive and won't support the growth of bacteria/competitor molds.

However after reading about the benefits of gypsum on mushroom yields I went ahead and added a bit of gypsum to my vermiculite casing, although I'm not sure if my mushrooms will gain the benefits as it's only in the casing layer and not in the actual substrate. if someone could comment on this I would appreciate it.


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OfflineRictus
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Rictus]
    #21938299 - 07/13/15 05:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I said 30 minutes, that is why I said the 2 hour standard was over kill. That is medical, no medical personnel sterilize verm, so I agree. I shouldn't have said that. I have heard of cases of it contaminating that doesn't mean that I think it should be avoided. I agree it is most likely the operators fault.

Sounds good spacechildo.


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OfflineXiaoYi
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: insanemike]
    #21938306 - 07/13/15 05:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Mike-

I am fruiting these invitro, I'm just popping the lids off and putting them in the sgfc to control the humidity more easily.


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Rictus]
    #21938325 - 07/13/15 05:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If you get contamination on verm, it wasn't from anything that recently germinated. Meaning the contam came from the spawn. SPORES WILL NOT GERMINATE ON A MINERAL. It does not contain any carbs or nitrogen which fuel and support cell growth. So there isn't any reason to pasteurize, bake or sterilize it.


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21938339 - 07/13/15 05:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Vermiculite is definitely nutritious to mycelium. It is also nutritious to competitors. Gypsum is a PH buffer, and can help with yields and swings in the substrate.

Also Trich is actually added to potting soil because it is beneficial to plant development and soil biodiversity, (as well as mycelium is.)

My point was only to show the flawed logic and clarify the posts. I really don't know what you guys were originally chatting about.

Edit: Mike your wrong on that one.


Edited by Sockadin (07/13/15 05:37 PM)


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21938345 - 07/13/15 05:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

XiaoYi said:
Mike-

I am fruiting these invitro, I'm just popping the lids off and putting them in the sgfc to control the humidity more easily.




That is not fruiting invitro. Invitro would be with minimum amount of gas exchange that you can get away with. Which means leaving the lid on slightly loose. As soon as you open that container, it is exposed to the open air. Therefor it loses it's sterility which defeats the purpose of trying to aquire clean clones or cultures from an initro grow.


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Sockadin]
    #21938359 - 07/13/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tetramine said:
Vermiculite is definitely nutritious to mycelium. It is also nutritious to competitors. Gypsum is a PH buffer, and can help with yields and swings in the substrate.

Also Trich is actually added to potting soil because it is beneficial to plant development and soil biodiversity, (as well as mycelium is.)

My point was only to show the flawed logic and clarify the posts. I really don't know what you guys were originally chatting about.

Edit: Mike your wrong on that one.




No I'm not. Yes. With enough grain spawn, you can use it as a pseudo bulk substrate but spores do not readily germinate on it because it is not nearly nutritious enough to promote cell growth.


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OfflineXiaoYi
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: insanemike]
    #21938368 - 07/13/15 05:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If "Invitro" only applies to the practice of fruiting in "semi-sterile" conditions for the purpose of obtaining spore prints or clones, then no this isn't invitro. Perhaps I've mistook the meaning of the term. In any event I'm fruiting these in their original plastic containers- lids off, in a sgfc.



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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21938379 - 07/13/15 05:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Again Wrong.

Vermiculite can be consumed and absorbed by Mycelium for it's nutritious properties. Mycelium may not germinate on it, but healthy mycelium will colonize and propagate on it, just like mold will.

http://webmineral.com/data/Vermiculite.shtml#.VaRMaI3bIbw

Incase you were wondering what it was made out of.


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Sockadin]
    #21938415 - 07/13/15 05:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tetramine said:
Again Wrong.

Vermiculite can be consumed and absorbed by Mycelium for it's nutritious properties. Mycelium may not germinate on it, but healthy mycelium will colonize and propagate on it, just like mold will.

http://webmineral.com/data/Vermiculite.shtml#.VaRMaI3bIbw

Incase you were wondering what it was made out of.




Vermiculite simply holds alot of water which is why it is used as a casing layer in bulk grows and as a substrate in the pf tek. Try growing mycelium pf style and omit the rice flour and let us all know how that turns out for you.


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OfflineRictus
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Sockadin]
    #21938419 - 07/13/15 05:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tetramine said:
Again Wrong.

Vermiculite can be consumed and absorbed by Mycelium for it's nutritious properties. Mycelium may not germinate on it, but healthy mycelium will colonize and propagate on it, just like mold will.

http://webmineral.com/data/Vermiculite.shtml#.VaRMaI3bIbw

Incase you were wondering what it was made out of.



Quote:

Tetramine said:
Again Wrong.

Vermiculite can be consumed and absorbed by Mycelium for it's nutritious properties. Mycelium may not germinate on it, but healthy mycelium will colonize and propagate on it, just like mold will.

http://webmineral.com/data/Vermiculite.shtml#.VaRMaI3bIbw

Incase you were wondering what it was made out of.





Thanks for the info Tetramine. I completely agree, well said.

In vitro means in glass or behind glass. It would be referring to mushrooms grown inside of an unopened jar. It wouldn't be possible to do in vitro with the V-tek or at least not worth while.

He already said that spores are unlikely to germinate, enough said.


Edited by Rictus (07/13/15 05:53 PM)


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Rictus]
    #21938458 - 07/13/15 06:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The tek actually has an invitro "version" for the taller quart containers. I love it, it's become one of my favorite nifty little methods.  Check the page of links in my signature.

Vermiculite may have some minerals that already-established mycelium may use, but this doesn't make it nutritious.


--------------------
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PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Violet]
    #21938763 - 07/13/15 07:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

While I love the V-tek personally, (your never gonna get rid of that name now) all I am pointing out is that it has nutrients and show be properly processed. Either through pasteurization of sterilization. You can't PC BRF and then mix it with Vermiculite and water and not have contamination.

But to clarify the topic most of the time when using Verm and or Coir as a bulk sub, when you get contamination it is more than likely going to be from your spawn.


Edited by Sockadin (07/13/15 07:08 PM)


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Sockadin]
    #21939001 - 07/13/15 08:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tetramine said:
While I love the V-tek personally, (your never gonna get rid of that name now) all I am pointing out is that it has nutrients and show be properly processed. Either through pasteurization of sterilization. You can't PC BRF and then mix it with Vermiculite and water and not have contamination.

But to clarify the topic most of the time when using Verm and or Coir as a bulk sub, when you get contamination it is more than likely going to be from your spawn.




You completely missed the point of the statement that you are referring to. Let me put it in a way that maybe you can understand. Just because you are able to chew, swallow and finish digesting paper, doesn't make it nutritious. You don't think mycelium can digest a substrate unless it's food to them? I've seen mycelium digest it's way right through an unlined tin tray on many occasions. I doubt it recieved much nutrition from it.


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: insanemike]
    #21939054 - 07/13/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Its already been proven many times that most agaricales (including cubes) can break down lignin. There is nothing to suggest they derive anything from it.


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21939101 - 07/13/15 08:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Pasty, thank you, pasty. It seems these v-teker's only listen to the almighty words of their creator. It's kind of funny and kind of sad at the same time. I like Violet's tek but geeze, it's not the only proven way to grow and she just like anyone else, doesn't have all the answers. Sometimes you will have to take advice from other veteran experienced growers as well.


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: insanemike]
    #21939132 - 07/13/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm just trying to share what I know. . . I know RR went on about the nutes in verm but personally I doubt his word on that one.


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21939198 - 07/13/15 08:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Isn't it a known fact that verm at least has trace elements?

I'm not saying this implies one or another thing, not quite sure if you guys are debating whether spores will germ on it or myc of any kind will grow...

but if a brf cake weighs less than the verm it was made of alone after its done flushing where did this weight go?
isnt everything energy and energy cant disappear?


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: spacechildo]
    #21939238 - 07/13/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yes the verm does have some trace minerals, but its not really nutritious in the sense that fungi can live off of it. It can fruit off of straight grain or manure but it can't fruit off of verm.

Also as a culture fruits it squeezes the substrate which is going to compress it, does not mean its actually consuming as much as it looks like it is.

Not looking to make more of this that has been already but I will say that mike is correct in that cubes can colonize things that are not necessarily food and verm is only going to provide very trace benefit from a nutrition standpoint. Its a water reservoir.


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21939296 - 07/13/15 09:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

yeah considering the 5+qts of grain we use pr mono the verm isnt there for its nutritional value.

I was actually thinking more of the weight of the cake, I know myc can colonize or at least crawl over things like plastic
and break down stuff it wont eat like tin trays but
if the weight of the verm is gone what happened to it?


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: spacechildo]
    #21939355 - 07/13/15 09:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not sure the weight of the verm is gone to be honest. I am sure that some of it does get "consumed". But other than RR saying it weighs less, I have seen nothing that proves it in a substantial way. Might be a good experiment for someone to conduct.


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OfflineXiaoYi
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: insanemike]
    #21939561 - 07/13/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

" It seems these v-teker's only listen to the almighty words of their creator."

Mike I'm not sure who, or what statement specifically you're referring to as I've been in agreement with you about the lack of a need for sterilizing vermiculite (for use as a casing) based on what I've read. An you gave a great example exemplifying vermiculite's lack of nutrition by inviting someone to attempt growing pf style cake omitting the flour and relying on verm for nutrition.

People just enjoy nitpicking. Of course there is an exceptionally small, negligible amount of nutrition in verm that poses an extremely small, highly unlikely, risk of providing contams with the nutrition they need to proliferate. I would liken it to a person to sucking on a dirty nickle--your body would garner some incredibly small amount of nutrition from the filth coating the nickle, but would it keep you from starving to death?

I'm not sure why this is being discussed anyway. Rictus*, like myself, is new here and not really in a position to be doling out advice.


Edited by XiaoYi (07/13/15 10:05 PM)


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21953109 - 07/16/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Verm is 50% aluminum so yeah mycelium can break it down just like it does aluminum trays. All I was originally advocating is that not past/sterilizing your verm in a casing can give an opportunity for other contaminates to grow on the substance if it is being used with a weak mycelium network.

@bryancranston: V and I have argued for years. I don't idolize her or her teks. I know they can work through trial. I don't usually use her teks because they are not right for me.

@Pasty: Im not saying that a PF cake with out BRF will actually give a great environment to develop healthy mycelium, but it has nutrients. If it didn't why wouldn't we use saw dust and BRF in cakes?


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Sockadin]
    #21953171 - 07/16/15 06:22 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tetramine said:
Im not saying that a PF cake with out BRF will actually give a great environment to develop healthy mycelium, but it has nutrients. If it didn't why wouldn't we use saw dust and BRF in cakes?




I don't really equate trace minerals with nutrients. The reason we don't use it in brf cakes is that wood is so attractive to trich that its not worth the risk to have it as a substrate for a non wood loving species that will not colonize it as aggressively as most woodlovers will. Certainly wood has more benefit for cubensis than verm would as a primary substrate. You could probably get a just wood substrate to colonize even tho it would not fruit well at all, but I doubt you could get a straight verm substrate to colonize with cubes. I have used verm untreated straight out of the bag many times as a casing. Its probably better to treat it simply to keep the sporeload on the sub lower but, having untreated verm contam is a non issue.


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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21953536 - 07/16/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have on numerous occasions used verm as a casing straight out of the bag and not once have I seen a contam grow on it. Infact I have had substrates that were into there 3rd flush, contaminate with trich. They were cased with verm and still the verm never contaminated, the trich only took over where the mycelium network became weak.

if anyone considers trace minerals to be sufficient nutrition,  go ahead and see how long you can live off of nothing but water and a daily multivitamin.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: insanemike]
    #21953654 - 07/16/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Pasty, sounds right to me. That's always been the way I've seen it.
Yet I, of all people (go figure?) got the flak from RR for calling verm non-nutritious.  He may have been right, but IMO it was an inapplicable, archaic form of rightness, these days best used as a rhetorical weapon, which I believe it was.

Tetramine, were you by another name before or something? Because I don't remember you at all, much less "fighting" with you.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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OfflineRictus
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Violet]
    #21972320 - 07/20/15 06:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for being congenial in your ways violet, it is nice having you around. Thanks for the links to the in vitro style.


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OfflineXiaoYi
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Registered: 05/17/15
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Rictus]
    #21992061 - 07/24/15 07:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

*UPDATE*

Hello guys, I just wanted to update in case anyone was interested in how this worked out.

Tall container cased with Verm/Gypsum fruited invitro style* first flush yielded ~50 grams




50/50+ cased containers fruited in SGFC developing pins*




and the small Mini-Round* 50/50+ casing



And here's my first pf cakes on their second flush:

Left side is Golden Teacher and the right side with 3 mushrooms is Amazonian.


Amazonian closeup


Thanks guys, I'd love to hear any suggestions.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21995098 - 07/25/15 12:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

50 grams first flush is pretty good! Especially if multi-spore.

Good job Xiao.  Feel encouraged to post your results in the related tek threads, I'd appreciate it!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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OfflineXiaoYi
Zhu Ren


Registered: 05/17/15
Posts: 19
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: Violet]
    #21997351 - 07/25/15 09:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks Violet it means a lot. I'll certainly post in the related threads, hopefully my results can help someone else. All containers are multi-spore.

as for an update the containers are coming along quite nicely pins are still coming in, I'll have to take some more photos to share tomorrow.


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OfflineYaMoonSun
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: XiaoYi]
    #21997677 - 07/25/15 11:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have some jiffy that was donated and no idea how to use it. You mix it into your substrate?


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: V-Tek invitro Casing [Re: YaMoonSun]
    #21997716 - 07/25/15 11:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18880716 if it's the seed starter stuff with vermiculite in the ingredients it's basically preprepped 50/50+

If it doesn't have vermiculite in the ingredients, either use violate's mud magic microwave prep or mix it with vermiculite 50/50.  I haven't gotten mud magic to work, but I haven't tried since I was a scrub, cause I just didn't want one more thing to possibly fuck up.

For the 50/50 mixes, I microwave 2 minutes after I smell microwaved peat to ~pasteurize~ it.  Smells so good, mmmmmm.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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