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metaphoric
Mr. Bater



Registered: 05/18/15
Posts: 730
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Specialized Strain Isolation 1
#21924169 - 07/10/15 11:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Our advanced growers do so these days with a remarkably low rate of contams these days. So low in fact that it is virtually always the best call to simply eliminate any contaminated spawn rather then trying to deal with salvaging something usable.
Our advanced growers of these days also tend to pick out genetics that show high performance in some desirable area: over all yield, speed etc.
Contamination resistance is a favorable trait to have present in any genetics you're using but we never get the chance to isolate that trait since we never have contamination present.
I'm wondering about fruiting mushrooms though various types of contamination. We already know contamination doesn't put danger into the fruit itself when it comes to personal consumption so no worries there.
This isn't something I'm going to start doing, just a topic I thought would be interesting to be a part of it's conversation.
I would give this a try myself (why not) except I don't really have a room I can close off from everything and allow contams to bloom and spray spores all over. So for now it's just a fun hypothetical.
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rxb
n00b-sabot



Registered: 08/24/13
Posts: 9,526
Loc: FREE PSYCHONAUTICA
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: metaphoric]
#21924203 - 07/10/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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contamination can screw up your lab and grow space.
contamination can stall growth/colonization...
i think its wise to clean the contamination or to discard unless its completely isolated from your lab or anything important.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: rxb]
#21924290 - 07/10/15 12:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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an interesting idea though. I enjoy a jar that fights back against contam.
Just had a jar that got a contam, but the mycelium surrounded it early, preventing it from spreading. I let it sit for a long time and eventually the mycelium started to take over the contam.
Can't see it being incredibly useful to have mycelium that can fight contams though, since you're just trying to avoid contam at all costs anyway.
Perhaps it would be useful for outdoor mushroom beds?
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: Psilosopherr]
#21924331 - 07/10/15 12:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: an interesting idea though. I enjoy a jar that fights back against contam.
Just had a jar that got a contam, but the mycelium surrounded it early, preventing it from spreading. I let it sit for a long time and eventually the mycelium started to take over the contam.
Can't see it being incredibly useful to have mycelium that can fight contams though, since you're just trying to avoid contam at all costs anyway.
Perhaps it would be useful for outdoor mushroom beds?
I've got an agar plate that I did that with. It already had some good mycelium growth, so I transferred some bacteria to it to watch them battle it out. After a week or two, the myc ate all the bacteria and the plate looked almost normal again, though you can still see some ridges where the bacterial line was at it's strongest.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21924333 - 07/10/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: an interesting idea though. I enjoy a jar that fights back against contam.
Just had a jar that got a contam, but the mycelium surrounded it early, preventing it from spreading. I let it sit for a long time and eventually the mycelium started to take over the contam.
Can't see it being incredibly useful to have mycelium that can fight contams though, since you're just trying to avoid contam at all costs anyway.
Perhaps it would be useful for outdoor mushroom beds?
I've got an agar plate that I did that with. It already had some good mycelium growth, so I transferred some bacteria to it to watch them battle it out. After a week or two, the myc ate all the bacteria and the plate looked almost normal again, though you can still see some ridges where the bacterial line was at it's strongest.

I wonder if some strains produce more potent...metabolites? (whatever you call the yellow liquid they produce. mycelial piss)
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: Psilosopherr]
#21924483 - 07/10/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: an interesting idea though. I enjoy a jar that fights back against contam.
Just had a jar that got a contam, but the mycelium surrounded it early, preventing it from spreading. I let it sit for a long time and eventually the mycelium started to take over the contam.
Can't see it being incredibly useful to have mycelium that can fight contams though, since you're just trying to avoid contam at all costs anyway.
Perhaps it would be useful for outdoor mushroom beds?
I've got an agar plate that I did that with. It already had some good mycelium growth, so I transferred some bacteria to it to watch them battle it out. After a week or two, the myc ate all the bacteria and the plate looked almost normal again, though you can still see some ridges where the bacterial line was at it's strongest.

I wonder if some strains produce more potent...metabolites? (whatever you call the yellow liquid they produce. mycelial piss)
I was wondering too. I really don't understand much about how any of it works. I'm pretty sure it's based on excreted chemicals (maybe they inhibit reproduction of pathogens?) and disgestive excretions, but past that I have no idea. It was fun to watch it happen though. The bacteria were doing well for a while, but then the tides turned.
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Toadstool5
A Registered Mycophile



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 1,359
Loc: The Golden State
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21926670 - 07/10/15 11:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
wonder if some strains produce more potent...metabolites? (whatever you call the yellow liquid they produce. mycelial piss)
Secondary metabolites or mycelial piss works 
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Primary metabolites: the intermediates or end products of the common metabolic pathways of all organisms (sugars, amino acids, organic acids, glycerol, etc.) and which are essential for the normal cellular functions of fungi.
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Secondary metabolites: a diverse range of com- pounds formed by specific pathways of particular organisms; they are not essential for growth, although they can confer an advantage to the organisms that produce them (e.g. antibiotics, fungal toxins, etc.)
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An antibiotic can be defined somewhat arbitrarily as a diffusible secondary metabolite of one (micro)organism that inhibits another (micro)organism at a concentration of 100 µg ml−1 or less. This definition serves to exclude general metabolic byproducts such as CO2 or organic acids. It restricts the term to specific highly active compounds that affect specific cellular targets.
Yeah certain species and certain strains create different antibiotics to battle bacteria and fungi. So naturally some are more resistant depending on genetics and environment. Basidiomycotas sometimes also use hyphal interference to dominate other mycellial competitors
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Hyphal interference occurs rapidly, a few minutes after hyphal contact, and often is localized to a single hyphal compartment. The first visible sign is vacuolation and loss of turgor in the affected hyphal compartment. If a dye such as neutral red is added at this stage it is taken into the affected compartment but does not enter the healthy hyphal compartments, indicating that hyphal interference causes loss of normal membrane integrity. In electron micrographs the affected cytoplasm is seen to be degenerate, the mitochondria are swollen, and a wide gap is seen between the retracted plasma membrane and the hyphal wall.
The damage is often contained within a hyphal compartment by zones of dense, coagulated cytoplasm on either side of the contact point. The mechanism of hyphal interference is still unclear, but a poorly diffusible factor seems to be involved, because hyphal interference can occur between hyphae separated by a cellophane membrane up to 50 µm wide.
Hyphal interference is not a parasitic phenomenon, because there is no evidence of invasion of the damaged hyphae. Instead, it seems to be an efficient means of inactivating other hyphae that are potential competitors for the same substrates.
*all quoted from "Fungal Biology" 4th edit. by Jim Deacon
Some people DO isolate for the sole purpose of contamination reistance. Trichoderma is very commonly used to produce mycotoxins for applications in medicine and agriculture.
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Trichoderma species (Fig. 12.5) are well-known for their ability to antagonize other fungi. They were among the first fungi to be shown to produce antibiotics in soil (Weindling 1934). In fact, they produce several antibiotics, including both volatile and nonvolatile compounds, active against fungi, bacteria or both.
Many Trichoderma species, such as T. viride, T. harzianum, and T. hamatum, produce 6-pentyl-α-pyrone (6-PAP) as the major volatile antibiotic, while the major nonvolatile antibiotics include trichodermin, suzukacillin, and alamethicine. But Trichoderma virens (as distinct from T. viride) produces a different spectrum of antibiotics: some strains produce viridin, viridiol (a reduction product of viridin), gliovirin, and heptelidic acid, whereas other strains of this fungus produce viridin and gliotoxin.
The differences in antibiotic production between strains of Trichoderma seem to be important, and have led to the widespread use of Trichoderma species as commercial biological control agents against plant-pathogenic fungi (see later)
-------------------- If you do not know where the mushroom products you are consuming are grown, think twice before eating them. - Paul Stamets AMU Teks Stro's Write Ups
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: Toadstool5]
#21928123 - 07/11/15 09:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks a bunch! I've been looking for a good read about this stuff. You have earned yourself a good rating.
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metaphoric
Mr. Bater



Registered: 05/18/15
Posts: 730
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: Toadstool5]
#21928158 - 07/11/15 09:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a picture perfect example of how and why this website works.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: metaphoric]
#21928351 - 07/11/15 11:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The brewing industry tried to make yeast endogenously contamination resistant. Problem is the media(beer) or rye grain or pf cakes isn't contamination resistant. The mycelium may be resistant but it won't overcome existing contamination if it grew elsewhere in a substrate then they meet each other. Problem two is that the fancy yeast didn't work as well as it did originally so that's a tough one to find the best of all world's. Thirdly its much easier to just avoid the problem. Selling resistant yeast means you're selling to people who dont have their shit together anyway.
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Toadstool5
A Registered Mycophile



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 1,359
Loc: The Golden State
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21928697 - 07/11/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Youre welcome! Im still learning myself so i cant offer much info but having a fungal biology book helps a lot.
Basidomycota do have their limitations on overrunning contaminates but if the mycelial mass can interfere enough with noncompatible hyphae and surround the colony, eventually the competitor hyphae will age and autolyse, if its not able to form chlamydospores then it dies. Same with bacteria, if it can contain and overpower it, once the colony runs out of nutrients it will kill and digest all of them.
Basidiomycota typically remain mutually exclusive but in vitro there is much less space/nutrients and sometimes they will completely overpower another microbe rather than isolate it... or vise versa sometimes those contams are biotrophic and will massacre a culture in a matter of hours.
-------------------- If you do not know where the mushroom products you are consuming are grown, think twice before eating them. - Paul Stamets AMU Teks Stro's Write Ups
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rxb
n00b-sabot



Registered: 08/24/13
Posts: 9,526
Loc: FREE PSYCHONAUTICA
Last seen: 18 seconds
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Re: Specialized Strain Isolation [Re: Psilosopherr]
#21929108 - 07/11/15 02:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: an interesting idea though. I enjoy a jar that fights back against contam.
Just had a jar that got a contam, but the mycelium surrounded it early, preventing it from spreading. I let it sit for a long time and eventually the mycelium started to take over the contam.
Can't see it being incredibly useful to have mycelium that can fight contams though, since you're just trying to avoid contam at all costs anyway.
Perhaps it would be useful for outdoor mushroom beds?
yeah if you can fruit and print high resistance strains and get them resistant to all contaminants it would be pretty bad ass.
i'd start with a cube
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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