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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925072 - 07/10/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Explain to me why aspartame should be listed and gmo should not?



Aspartame has been linked to seizures among other problems, although the evidence presented has all been questionable.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: D.M.T]
    #21925134 - 07/10/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Nice try but you fell short once again. Nothing about selling being a right. Its still regulated which means they can ban it if the seller does not follow regs.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925163 - 07/10/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

A sale is a contract, little buddy.  You learn something new every day.

The right to freedom of speech is a fundamental right, and the government cannot infringe upon that right without a compelling government interest.  I ask again...what is the compelling government interest being served in requiring GMOs to be labeled?


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Enlil]
    #21925192 - 07/10/15 04:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The trouble with the argument for labels is that it's hard to come up with a justification that's clearly and strongly compelling. Other countries have the labels, which gives their researchers an advantage, and if they find any evidence to strongly support the idea that GMOs can cause serious health risks, the situation will change.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21925221 - 07/10/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
if they find any evidence to strongly support the idea that GMOs can cause serious health risks, the situation will change.



Absolutely.  GMOs have been used for quite awhile now without any indication that they've caused health problems.  If, however, scientists find that GMOS do cause problems, that would certainly be a compelling government interest to force labeling and perhaps even ban them from food.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Enlil]
    #21925256 - 07/10/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A sale is a contract, little buddy.  You learn something new every day.

The right to freedom of speech is a fundamental right, and the government cannot infringe upon that right without a compelling government interest.  I ask again...what is the compelling government interest being served in requiring GMOs to be labeled?




The government is the people, the people have the right to know exactly what they buy. Just like a contract, you have the right to know the terms of your purchase. Should an ingredient be against what you believe, you can decide not to buy. Without said information, you might purchase something with ingredients you don't agree with or ingredients that underwent a industrial process you don't agree with.

I dn't understand people who refuse to be more informed. If it was just for me, any consumer product would come with the information possible.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Enlil]
    #21925325 - 07/10/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A sale is a contract, little buddy.  You learn something new every day.

The right to freedom of speech is a fundamental right, and the government cannot infringe upon that right without a compelling government interest.  I ask again...what is the compelling government interest being served in requiring GMOs to be labeled?




Again you struggle probably realizing you are wrong but never willing to admit it. Govt can regulate interstate commerce and that includes regulating what sales contracts can be made and on what terms. Selling is no more a right than driving is. If it was a right, then no one could be stopped from selling any more than they can be stopped from breathing. Yet as you know very well, there are many restrictions on selling.

Its time to cut your losses and admit it, or as is your usual way, just go silent on that point.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Patlal]
    #21925327 - 07/10/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:

The government is the people, the people have the right to know exactly what they buy. Just like a contract, you have the right to know the terms of your purchase. Should an ingredient be against what you believe, you can decide not to buy. Without said information, you might purchase something with ingredients you don't agree with or ingredients that underwent a industrial process you don't agree with.




That's a pretty wild theory.  Do you have a source for this alleged right to know "exactly what [one buys]"?  If that right exists, where is the 1000 page manual that should come with a car, stating the atomic breakdown of every part on the vehicle?

We're not talking about ingredients....We're talking about the genetic makeup of them.  If you think the purchaser has the right to know that, then you need to back that up with a source, because caveat emptor has been the general law for centuries.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925331 - 07/10/15 04:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No one can be stopped from selling, dude, unless the government has an important interest and the regulation is rationally related to that interest.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Enlil]
    #21925351 - 07/10/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Caveat emptor has been replaced by numerous regulations as you know.

>No one can be stopped from selling, dude, unless the government has an important interest and the regulation is rationally related to that interest.

So they do not have a right to sell same as they have a right to life and liberty? That's as close as you have ever come to admitting anything. And its ludicrous to say that all govt regulations are "rational". Anything they come up with could fit under your loose wordage. Ho hum, fail.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineAdolin
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925356 - 07/10/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

you know what's ludicrous?

trying to argue with a lawyer on an online forum.

arguing with enlil is like shouting at the wall.


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Adolin]
    #21925363 - 07/10/15 04:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gresh said:
arguing with enlil is like shouting at the wall.




Only if you expect him to shout back.


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OfflineAdolin
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21925368 - 07/10/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

good point. still.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925388 - 07/10/15 04:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
So they do not have a right to sell same as they have a right to life and liberty? That's as close as you have ever come to admitting anything. And its ludicrous to say that all govt regulations are "rational". Anything they come up with could fit under your loose wordage. Ho hum, fail.



Maybe I need to explain further:

There are Constitutional rights.  Not all of these rights are protected the same, however.  There are two basic types:  Fundamental rights, and other rights.

For fundamental rights, like the right to free speech, the government needs a compelling interest to regulate, and that regulation must be narrowly tailored to that interest.  For labeling, which is a speech issue, the government would have to have a compelling interest to force it.

For other rights, like the right to contract, the government needs an important interest, and the law has to be rationally related to that interest.  This is a lower standard.

What you fail to understand is that the government can't circumvent the compelling interest test by pretending to regulate something else.  They can't say, "We're not regulating speech, but if you don't speak, you can't sell."  That is a regulation of speech, pure and simple.  Any other analysis would pretty much be the end of all fundamental rights.  I can explain this in further detail if you need it, but this thread isn't really the place.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Enlil]
    #21925413 - 07/10/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Gresh, you are right. You might get more logic from the wall.

Enlil, you are trying to shift the question back to labels I see. Fine. However, selling is not speech and can be regulated. What the feds are doing or trying to do is stop states from requiring labels or to prevent voluntary labeling. I haven't read the bill so its unclear at this point.

Anything really dirty and bad they make secret like the tpp, aca, ttip, and other alphabet garbage. Now they want to keep gmo's secret. I wonder why?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925421 - 07/10/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There is no bill to prohibit voluntary labeling, and such a law would be unconstitutional as an infringement on the right to freedom of speech.

Selling can be regulated.  Speech can be regulated.  In order to do the latter, however, the government needs a compelling interest.  I ask yet again, what is the compelling government interest in requiring GMOs to be labeled?


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Enlil]
    #21925439 - 07/10/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Patlal said:

The government is the people, the people have the right to know exactly what they buy. Just like a contract, you have the right to know the terms of your purchase. Should an ingredient be against what you believe, you can decide not to buy. Without said information, you might purchase something with ingredients you don't agree with or ingredients that underwent a industrial process you don't agree with.




That's a pretty wild theory.  Do you have a source for this alleged right to know "exactly what [one buys]"?  If that right exists, where is the 1000 page manual that should come with a car, stating the atomic breakdown of every part on the vehicle?

We're not talking about ingredients....We're talking about the genetic makeup of them.  If you think the purchaser has the right to know that, then you need to back that up with a source, because caveat emptor has been the general law for centuries.




We don't need 1000 page documents anymore. We have the internet. All info should be on the company's website. That way the customer will be able exactly what he buys. Of course most people won't give a shit, but some people will be able to study before they purchase.

And no I can't back that with a source because it doesn't exist, It's what I think should be done in the future. Therefore there is no source. It has to be written from scratch and made into law. IMO of course. I know it won't happen because people already don't inform themselves even though lots of information is already available to them, but you know, I can dream that one day people will start caring.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Patlal]
    #21925461 - 07/10/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Considering that we already have the Chinese reverse engineering everything we make so that they can do it cheaper, I think requiring the disclosures you suggest would be highly imprudent.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Enlil]
    #21925477 - 07/10/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Considering that we already have the Chinese reverse engineering everything we make so that they can do it cheaper, I think requiring the disclosures you suggest would be highly imprudent.




Trump will take care of that, don't worry


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InvisibleAtreyu
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Re: 68% of doctors thing GMO's should be labeled [Re: Enlil]
    #21925491 - 07/10/15 05:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Is it not enough that the general public wants them labeled?


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