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Cepheus
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A thought on natural selection
#21917313 - 07/08/15 10:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Given that evolution is the current accepted model for explaining our origin, How do you think a cesarean section impacts evolution?
Survival of the fittest would and strongest would mean that any of the children that are born via C-section would not survive, neither would the mother. This is only a human phenomenon as obviously only humans have the capability to perform it...
Is this evolution?
-------------------- "I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst
"...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" Free Spore Ring Europe Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution
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Shroomslip
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21917398 - 07/08/15 10:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Natural selection in humans has been pretty much thrown completely out the window with medicine of all forms. It doesn't just stop at C-sections. Antibiotics, cancer treatments, surgery, immunizations etc etc. All the things that would in the eyes of natural selection make us inferior we can pretty easily overcome. More and more treatments are constantly added as well.
Natural selection on the entire scale of species however, all of this medical manipulation is still natural selection. It's our brains that evolved to be able to do these things, that lead to us being able to extend our lives and our genetic reach. It makes us the "fittest". So yes, this is still evolution IMO.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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Cepheus
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shroomslip]
#21917422 - 07/08/15 10:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The reason I chose C-sections specifically for the topic of my argument is because they have an immediate effect on the gene pool of our race. Treating cancer is definitely different from cutting a baby out of a dying mothers womb.
I think all science that provides viable results is heading in the correct direction for the evolution of man, it's just this one particular thing that seems to go against natural law; given the current population of the planet etc.
-------------------- "I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst
"...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" Free Spore Ring Europe Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution
Open Source. Freedom. GNU/Linux Addicting is not a word.
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Shroomslip
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21917452 - 07/08/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Don't focus on the cancer then (though some can kill fairly fast). There are plenty of venomous animals or viruses that can kill in hours/days, certain surgeries are required in minutes or hours to prevent death. Those too would have an immediate effect on the gene pool. These are also things we'd consider to be natural selection but we unnaturally fix it.
It's not just C-sections that go against natural law, or at least I fail to see how it'd be any different than them at the least.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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Redpill


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus] 2
#21917462 - 07/08/15 11:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Survival of the fittest simply means survival of the organisms most adapted to their environments. That doesn't necessarily mean the strongest or most intelligent, it simply means the one who's best at surviving and reproducing. The fact that we've changed which gene pools are able to survive with stuff like C-sections and other modern medicine does not mean evolution is failing, it means evolution has taken a drastic and interesting turn in another direction, for better or worse. It's all just a matter of perspective.
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Cepheus
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Redpill]
#21917552 - 07/08/15 11:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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And that is a perspective that is fresh, which is the aim of this thread .
I wonder this because I am a C-section child and I have been regressing through mental trauma recently. I've kinda gotten to the point where I'm at my very earliest memories and at this bit no thoughts are in words or anything, they're just kind of like flashes.
I know it is a completely redundant thought because it didn't happen, but if I was born in another country, or my mother lived somewhere remote without ready access to a doctor, I wouldn't exist.. If you play with the idea is does have an interesting outcome on evolution .
-------------------- "I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst
"...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" Free Spore Ring Europe Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution
Open Source. Freedom. GNU/Linux Addicting is not a word.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21917562 - 07/08/15 11:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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We do have like unprecedented levels of heart diseases and cancer and shit like that, from fucking around too much.. so it's not like it's completely out of whack. All things balance out in the end. Nature finds a way..
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Cepheus
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shroomism]
#21917595 - 07/09/15 12:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said: We do have like unprecedented levels of heart diseases and cancer and shit like that, from fucking around too much.. so it's not like it's completely out of whack. All things balance out in the end. Nature finds a way..
That was going to be my next argument .
-------------------- "I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst
"...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" Free Spore Ring Europe Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution
Open Source. Freedom. GNU/Linux Addicting is not a word.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus] 1
#21917605 - 07/09/15 12:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Two steps ahead
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r00tuuu123
Now I'm just really piseed



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shroomism]
#21917792 - 07/09/15 01:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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You left out hard on pills maybe your dick doesn't work for a reason.
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Please report me to a Mod for hurting your punk ass hippie feelings And all time Champion thread killer.
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Gorlax



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21917815 - 07/09/15 01:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well then premature babies and a slew of other neonatal complicated babies should not have been added to the gene pool. Problem is most normal babies come from C-sections. They just have trouble being born through the birth canal from random abnormalities. Usually caused by the mother who is already in the gene pool. It's not like a C-section produces a retarded baby. Plus many C-sections are a chosen option by the mother to prevent their pussy from becoming even larger. If anything allowing a baby with a mutation to be born alters the gene pool but so insignificantly it doesn't even matter. Mutations are drive advancements most of the time anyways.
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Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21917820 - 07/09/15 01:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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There are three selections that take place on this planet.
Natural
Social
Supernatural
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Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
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Hayoxp
Enlil sucks cock


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shiithead]
#21917828 - 07/09/15 01:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm TnT son, watch me explode
(into rainbows n stuffz) huhu :3
-------------------- Enlil is trash, needs to end himself.
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SnowDaze
Probably Relapsing on Heroin



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Hayoxp]
#21917860 - 07/09/15 02:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Love show
Once traded a bum two dales pale ales for seasons 8 and 9
best thing I ever did
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If you get confused, listen to the music play
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Hayoxp
Enlil sucks cock


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: SnowDaze]
#21917890 - 07/09/15 02:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lmao, shit sounded southern to me..
-------------------- Enlil is trash, needs to end himself.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus] 1
#21917929 - 07/09/15 03:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cepheus said: I think all science that provides viable results is heading in the correct direction for the evolution of man
This is one of the fatal flaws in the thinking of many people about evolution. There is no 'correct direction' to evolution. By definition, evolution has no specific aim or purpose. It's emergent. One could, on the other hand, argue that one direction or another would be beneficial to the survival of humans from our own perspective, but that would 'borrow' our own intentions and project them on a natural process that in itself doesn't care about one or another purpose.
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Cepheus
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21918379 - 07/09/15 08:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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It depends how you consider the situation. I realise that evolution does not give to shits what an individual human says, but I do believe it is possible to consider a situation with a limited bias as possible. This is literally what the scientific method is.
When Heisenberg was attempting to describe the fundamental bias imposed humans due to the collapse of the waveform when you observe an experimental result, this is exactly what he was trying to explain. It's one of the most far out there bits of physics I've encountered, it's literally a mathematic description of the fundamental uncertainty imposed by human observation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
For us to attempt to deconstruct any idea or thought about the physical universe we have to operate within the language we already understand, or at least the language that has the most empirical evidence in reality. Again this isn't perfect, but it does allow for interesting thought experiments and eventually allows for small steps in the a direction which all collective understanding of human knowledge, would say is correct.
Play with me here .
-------------------- "I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst
"...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" Free Spore Ring Europe Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution
Open Source. Freedom. GNU/Linux Addicting is not a word.
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21918411 - 07/09/15 08:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Evolution and natural selection are still ongoing for humans even if things don't always seem to match the popular perception of "survival of the fittest." "Survival of the fit enough" is probably a better description of the process. Also, we may like to imagine ourselves as being outside of nature, but really there is nothing unnatural about our influence on ourselves.
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: psi] 1
#21918433 - 07/09/15 08:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Survival of the ones that survived..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Cepheus
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Amanita86]
#21918451 - 07/09/15 08:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Survival of the ones that survived..
That I think sums it up quite nicely .
-------------------- "I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst
"...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" Free Spore Ring Europe Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution
Open Source. Freedom. GNU/Linux Addicting is not a word.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21918461 - 07/09/15 08:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cepheus said:
I know it is a completely redundant thought because it didn't happen, but if I was born in another country, or my mother lived somewhere remote without ready access to a doctor, I wouldn't exist.. If you play with the idea is does have an interesting outcome on evolution .
This is still a selection pressure, and I think you're spot on.
Nowadays, there are different selections that will shape humanity and "Select" for different things. It used to be about physical size and strength, but I believe that is fading to favor intelligence.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21918483 - 07/09/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cepheus said: Given that evolution is the current accepted model for explaining our origin, How do you think a cesarean section impacts evolution?
Survival of the fittest would and strongest would mean that any of the children that are born via C-section would not survive, neither would the mother. This is only a human phenomenon as obviously only humans have the capability to perform it...
Is this evolution?
Its survival of the fittest, not survival of the strongest. Fitness is a measure of the organisms ability to propagate in its environment. The fitness of an organism and its genes is a function of the environment. In an environment where c-sections can happen and offspring born from one can still propagate then those organisms are indeed fit.
What does this imply about evolution? It increases our genetic diversity. Where as before the genes that would lead to a troubled birth would have trouble propagating now those genes can propagate easier. They get selected into the pool rather than selected out of the pool.
Also, humans have among the most difficult births of mammals largely due to the unfortunate combination of having large heads combined with narrow hips for walking upright. This is a constraint on our head size. With c-sections big headed kids that would have killed their mom can now be born and propagate. Maybe the human head size will start to grow again...
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Prisoner#1
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shroomslip]
#21918534 - 07/09/15 09:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomslip said: Natural selection in humans has been pretty much thrown completely out the window with medicine of all forms. It doesn't just stop at C-sections. Antibiotics, cancer treatments, surgery, immunizations etc etc. All the things that would in the eyes of natural selection make us inferior we can pretty easily overcome. More and more treatments are constantly added as well
intelligence is a part of natural selection and with that so is medicine
so, how about them pandas, they're too dumb to reproduce and should have died out decades ago
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Prisoner#1] 1
#21918638 - 07/09/15 09:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: so, how about them pandas, they're too dumb to reproduce and should have died out decades ago
There is no should, only what happened, what is and what may happen. They haven't died out. Its amazing, like you say. They don't like mating, they only raise one baby at a time and did you know that they are carnivorous? Well, they have the digestive tract and teeth of carnivores, yet they eat nutritionally void bamboo. Talk about backing yourself into an evolutionary corner (ever read "Childhood's End"?).
But... They are cute and endeared to one of the most powerful species on the planet. That should not be dismissed as silly or irrelevant. Its a real advantage and its means their genes have a level of fitness in the current fitness landscape (environment). And that is all that really matters, there is no right or wrong way to be fit with respect to natural selection. There is no way it "should" be. If their gene's propensity for cuteness allows them to garner resources from us and this can overcome their poor fitness with respect to mating and diet then they will propagate. If not, then of course they wont.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21918733 - 07/09/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cepheus said: For us to attempt to deconstruct any idea or thought about the physical universe we have to operate within the language we already understand, or at least the language that has the most empirical evidence in reality.
I agree, and that's exactly why I made my remark. Although a phrase such as 'correct direction' seems understandable, it doesn't seem to fit the evidence that we have about the nature of evolution. Nothing as far as we know points towards evolution having a specific goal or a pre-set path to follow. Hence, none of the possible directions (which are virtually infinite) can be correct or incorrect. Of course, the lack of evidence does not negate the possibility of such a directionality, so the best option would probably be to speak of medical advances changing the path of evolution - without going into the issue if this would be correct, desirable or just.
Quote:
Play with me here .
I would, but the Heisenberg thing makes be believe we may be playing different games on the same field, and we might not even be using the same ball
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zappaisgod
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21919455 - 07/09/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The engine of evolution is death before reproduction. Our successful medical system has pretty much eliminated human physical evolution.
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Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: zappaisgod]
#21920144 - 07/09/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Adaptation is an observable process and is a law.
Evolution is not law. It is a theory. This means there is not enough empirical evidence to draw an orderly and concise conclusion.
Theories are fine. But once you allow them to become part of your reality and the world we live in at large, people get confused and the truth goes out the window.
Social selection plays a big part in keeping the theory of evolution alive as a fact of life. But just because the majority or society for that matter says it is right, doesn't mean it is...
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Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#21920956 - 07/09/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: The engine of evolution is death before reproduction. Our successful medical system has pretty much eliminated human physical evolution.
No, this is wrong. The engine of evolution is mutation and selection. Human genetic diversity is increasing faster than ever. Advances in medicine increases human evolution by increasing our genetic diversity. Death before reproduction evolves genetic homogeneity, because fewer gene types reproduce. Medical treatment allows genes that would be unfit in a different environment to be fit in our environment. These genes add genetic diversity. In both cases evolution continues, it never stops. The only thing that changes is the rate and type of evolution.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121128132259.htm http://www.wired.com/2007/12/humans-evolving/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071211-human-evolution.html
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SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shiithead]
#21920992 - 07/09/15 05:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shiithead said: Adaptation is an observable process and is a law.
Evolution is not law. It is a theory. This means there is not enough empirical evidence to draw an orderly and concise conclusion.
Theories are fine. But once you allow them to become part of your reality and the world we live in at large, people get confused and the truth goes out the window.
Social selection plays a big part in keeping the theory of evolution alive as a fact of life. But just because the majority or society for that matter says it is right, doesn't mean it is...
Your comment confuses me. Adaptation means, a change or the process of change by which an organism or species becomes better suited to its environment.
You don't think over a period of a million years or longer that they can change enough to be totally unrecognizable from it's ancestor? I was under the impression that evolution is basically adaptation over a longer period of time, those who can adapt to different conditions survive and pass on the genes capable of surviving, when things change again they adapt again and those who survive and can adapt reproduce using those genes capable of doing so, and over the course of millions to billions of years and after enough adaptations something can "evolve" or has "evolved" into different types of animals and those billions of years of adaptations lead us to the species and life we know today, coupled with one species branching off in different directions, having the same species needing to adapt to survive two different climates, and many other factors such as this.
I'm not saying evolution is set in stone and that certain principles of it might be off, but as a whole it kind of makes sense to me
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Cepheus]
#21921004 - 07/09/15 05:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cepheus said: Given that evolution is the current accepted model for explaining our origin, How do you think a cesarean section impacts evolution?
Survival of the fittest would and strongest would mean that any of the children that are born via C-section would not survive, neither would the mother. This is only a human phenomenon as obviously only humans have the capability to perform it...
Is this evolution?
Listen. Humans have beaten evolution long ago. Ever since that guy decide to eat the root of a plant to get rid of an ailment.
Right now humans are turning back the clock to make sure evolution has nothing on us.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: DieCommie]
#21921268 - 07/09/15 06:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: The engine of evolution is death before reproduction. Our successful medical system has pretty much eliminated human physical evolution.
No, this is wrong. The engine of evolution is mutation and selection. Human genetic diversity is increasing faster than ever. Advances in medicine increases human evolution by increasing our genetic diversity. Death before reproduction evolves genetic homogeneity, because fewer gene types reproduce. Medical treatment allows genes that would be unfit in a different environment to be fit in our environment. These genes add genetic diversity. In both cases evolution continues, it never stops. The only thing that changes is the rate and type of evolution.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121128132259.htm http://www.wired.com/2007/12/humans-evolving/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071211-human-evolution.html
If every member of a species reproduces how can it evolve? Premature death is the engine of evolution.
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Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
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Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said:
I'm not saying evolution is set in stone and that certain principles of it might be off, but as a whole it kind of makes sense to me 
If scientists are so confident in evolution why isn't it a law like gravity??
It is because there really is no hard observable evidence to support it. This is why science is awesome. It's the people that are pumping the "true enough evidence" into the mainstream science and laymen communities. They won't dare call it a law though because then they would actually have to present observable and mathematical evidence.
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Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shiithead]
#21923012 - 07/10/15 03:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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This brings the question at what point sufficient evidence is presented for a hypothesis to be accepted as verified theory.
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Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21923023 - 07/10/15 03:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said: This brings the question at what point sufficient evidence is presented for a hypothesis to be accepted as verified theory.
The only thing you need is math and empirical evidence drawn from that math or a simple observation could be enough.
But like I said, it's not what's true with the people teaching this stuff. It is what's true enough. To me, this is a problem.
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Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shiithead]
#21923059 - 07/10/15 03:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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But how firm must the empirical evidence be? I understand your issue, but I want you to understand that it's hard to draw the line somewhere. One of the more popular definitions of knowledge is 'justified true belief' (Nonaka & Takeuchi). When is a belief justified and true? There are no absolutes when it comes to beliefs and ultimately, all or knowledge is in the end a set of beliefs. You have to choose at some point what you believe and what not. The line may be different for everyone.
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Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21923122 - 07/10/15 05:09 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Decoherence doesn't apply to the theory of evolution. There is no evidence of evolution. Period.
It is all speculation and wishful thinking. The line can be drawn if you want it to be drawn. If you wanna choose to live in a reality in which evolution is law, more power to you. But don't for a second think that it is based on empirical evidence.
Base it on a desire to be.
You will be more respected for your decision and more credible than one who lives in the reality in which evolution is law because the science books insinuate it so.
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Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: zappaisgod]
#21923149 - 07/10/15 05:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
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zappaisgod said: The engine of evolution is death before reproduction. Our successful medical system has pretty much eliminated human physical evolution.
No, this is wrong. The engine of evolution is mutation and selection. Human genetic diversity is increasing faster than ever. Advances in medicine increases human evolution by increasing our genetic diversity. Death before reproduction evolves genetic homogeneity, because fewer gene types reproduce. Medical treatment allows genes that would be unfit in a different environment to be fit in our environment. These genes add genetic diversity. In both cases evolution continues, it never stops. The only thing that changes is the rate and type of evolution.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121128132259.htm http://www.wired.com/2007/12/humans-evolving/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071211-human-evolution.html
If every member of a species reproduces how can it evolve? Premature death is the engine of evolution.
Mutation is how it evolves... Every single member of a species can live past its fertility and you would still have evolution.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shiithead]
#21923151 - 07/10/15 05:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shiithead said: There is no evidence of evolution. Period.
That's just nonsense. I'll gladly debate the matter, but you make it clear that there is no basis for debate with you. I respect your beliefs, but I think they're short sighted and that you misunderstand the meaning of the word 'evidence' (hint: not all evidence is by definition conclusive) and that you have a limited understanding of how science works.
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GoldenEye
...



Registered: 05/24/13
Posts: 4,340
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21923160 - 07/10/15 05:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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We are a "mangelwesen", google that and you'll have a nice theory on human evolution.
Mangelwesen is German and means as much as faulty creature. The theory says that we are so ill equiped to survive that we had to develop all kinds of tools and tricks to ensure our survival.
The fact that our brainy heads are too big to fit through a birth canal that has to be narrow because we walk upright fits this theory nicely.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shiithead] 1
#21923161 - 07/10/15 05:28 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Shiithead said: If scientists are so confident in evolution why isn't it a law like gravity??
Gravity is not a law. Its the theory of gravity. You are making the mistake of considering a theory to be a guess or hypothesis. Its not. Scientists are effectively just as confident in the theory of evolution as they are in the theory of gravity. Each have holes, each need work, each are among the most successful theories man has ever devised.
The "law of gravity" is an equation. Equations can be laws because they are always true under the axioms they are defined. Its then the theory that makes the claim that the law describes our observations within some threshold. With this in mind you can see that theories can contain many laws. Newton's law of gravity (his equation) is part of the theory of gravity. Einsteins field equation is also part of the theory.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21923165 - 07/10/15 05:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said:
Quote:
Shiithead said: There is no evidence of evolution. Period.
That's just nonsense. I'll gladly debate the matter, but you make it clear that there is no basis for debate with you. I respect your beliefs, but I think they're short sighted and that you misunderstand the meaning of the word 'evidence' (hint: not all evidence is by definition conclusive) and that you have a limited understanding of how science works.
Why do you respect his beliefs? Doesn't respect need to be earned? Do you really respect something that you believe is short sighted?
Creationism and the denial of scientific processes may deserve tolerance, it does not deserve respect.
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Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: DieCommie]
#21923201 - 07/10/15 05:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
koraks said:
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Shiithead said: There is no evidence of evolution. Period.
That's just nonsense. I'll gladly debate the matter, but you make it clear that there is no basis for debate with you. I respect your beliefs, but I think they're short sighted and that you misunderstand the meaning of the word 'evidence' (hint: not all evidence is by definition conclusive) and that you have a limited understanding of how science works.
Why do you respect his beliefs? Doesn't respect need to be earned? Do you really respect something that you believe is short sighted?
Creationism and the denial of scientific processes may deserve tolerance, it does not deserve respect.
Idk what the world is coming to but you guys are gonna love it.
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Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shiithead]
#21923223 - 07/10/15 06:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, I respect the fact that he has beliefs and I tolerate his views. Perhaps that's more accurate. And I'm very much aware of where we stand in terms of evidence and loose ends when it comes to evolution and for me it is clear that the concept is largely justified, even if there are aspects to it that we haven't fully figured out.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21923230 - 07/10/15 06:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sounds a little better to me. I have no doubt that you have a good understanding of the theory.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: DieCommie]
#21923241 - 07/10/15 06:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks for helping me formulate it more accurately. I agree that it's better this way.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: DieCommie]
#21923734 - 07/10/15 09:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
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zappaisgod said: The engine of evolution is death before reproduction. Our successful medical system has pretty much eliminated human physical evolution.
No, this is wrong. The engine of evolution is mutation and selection. Human genetic diversity is increasing faster than ever. Advances in medicine increases human evolution by increasing our genetic diversity. Death before reproduction evolves genetic homogeneity, because fewer gene types reproduce. Medical treatment allows genes that would be unfit in a different environment to be fit in our environment. These genes add genetic diversity. In both cases evolution continues, it never stops. The only thing that changes is the rate and type of evolution.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121128132259.htm http://www.wired.com/2007/12/humans-evolving/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071211-human-evolution.html
If every member of a species reproduces how can it evolve? Premature death is the engine of evolution.
Mutation is how it evolves... Every single member of a species can live past its fertility and you would still have evolution.
Mutation is what happens but without early death there won't be any success. Successful mutations only thrive when the environment disadvantages the existing genome. Consider bacteria. Antibiotic resistant strains are evolving because we are killing the non-resistant ones thus creating a niche.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: zappaisgod]
#21923818 - 07/10/15 09:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Not so much early death, but a failure to breed. But I assume that's what you mean, so I'm just being pedantic.
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madmodder
Trip More Drink Less


Registered: 08/26/14
Posts: 15,144
Loc: fuk zone
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21923868 - 07/10/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Tobacco and Alcohol Abuse seems like a pretty good form of natural selection/population control to me, I mean shit we are paying them to poison ourselves slowly and alcoholics look better than drug addicts in societies eyes, even though it is the same diesease... Alcohol abuse is a way to fuck up not only your life but the people around you, and it's a socially acceptable way to ruin your life.
And yeah, I do drink, but in moderation
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> [__________________________]
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: koraks]
#21923888 - 07/10/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, that's pretty much the point
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: madmodder] 1
#21923953 - 07/10/15 10:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
madmodder said: Tobacco and Alcohol Abuse seems like a pretty good form of natural selection/population control to me
No, it isn't, and neither are many forms of cancer. Reason being that they tend to allow individuals to procreate just nicely. In addition, it's debatable whether tobacco and alcohol use play a big role in genetic selection, as these forms of addiction have been shown to have only a partial (and therefore limited) association with genetic disposition.
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Supachopped719
Stranger


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: DieCommie]
#21924033 - 07/10/15 11:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Shiithead said: If scientists are so confident in evolution why isn't it a law like gravity??
Gravity is not a law. Its the theory of gravity. You are making the mistake of considering a theory to be a guess or hypothesis. Its not. Scientists are effectively just as confident in the theory of evolution as they are in the theory of gravity. Each have holes, each need work, each are among the most successful theories man has ever devised.
The "law of gravity" is an equation. Equations can be laws because they are always true under the axioms they are defined. Its then the theory that makes the claim that the law describes our observations within some threshold. With this in mind you can see that theories can contain many laws. Newton's law of gravity (his equation) is part of the theory of gravity. Einsteins field equation is also part of the theory.
-------------------- Real Eyes Realize Real Lies.
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stratocast
Has Been



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I'm in the camp that says we have beaten evolution. We pull all of our weak genetics right along into the future as if we aren't several organisms evolving but one organism that is the last of its kind. When genetics mutate and someone gets too far outside the norm, the other people (cells in the organism) operate on it to make it fit in. If the phenotype is no longer affected by the genotype in cases like c-sections, evolution is only changing a behind the scenes set of genes that no longer outwardly show themselves in reality.
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Edited by stratocast (07/10/15 11:31 AM)
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: Shroomism]
#21924119 - 07/10/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Shroomism said: We do have like unprecedented levels of heart diseases and cancer and shit like that, from fucking around too much.. so it's not like it's completely out of whack. All things balance out in the end. Nature finds a way..
Up until we become it succesor and take over its role through genetic manipulation.
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tryptkaloids
Learner



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Quote:
Nothing as far as we know points towards evolution having a specific goal or a pre-set path to follow.
..I'm pretty sure the point of evolution is survival...
you guys are forgetting that it has nothing to do with survival of the fittest, strongest, or smartest. it's survival of the richest.. there's so much affecting us now there's no telling where we go from here. we havn't beaten evolution. if anything we sped it up by getting around problems faster than genetics could. and slowed it down by relying on antibiotics and heavy medicine to a point where our bodies no longer know how to handle the bacteria they need to fend off
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ

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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: tryptkaloids]
#21924216 - 07/10/15 12:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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worse diseases get bred through us than from any other animal. as soon as they mutate and other animal's become susceptible, we will evolved something naturally; but evolution for the creature stops at the top of the food chain. only diseases and genetic disorder are left to evolve.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: tryptkaloids]
#21924247 - 07/10/15 12:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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tryptkaloids said:
Quote:
Nothing as far as we know points towards evolution having a specific goal or a pre-set path to follow.
..I'm pretty sure the point of evolution is survival...
That's not very specific though. It doesn't determine one fixed path to follow. There are many ways to survive.
Quote:
you guys are forgetting that it has nothing to do with survival of the fittest, strongest, or smartest. it's survival of the richest..
That's just a measure of fitness really.
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tryptkaloids
Learner



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Re: A thought on natural selection [Re: akira_akuma]
#21924248 - 07/10/15 12:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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we effect our change all the time. we are getting closer to all being cyborgs every day.
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
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