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Offliner00tuuu123
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Right to work vs Closed Shop
    #21916284 - 07/08/15 06:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What say you guys? What are your opinions on both? If you don't know what these terms mean Google them. Discuss Intelligently.


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916357 - 07/08/15 06:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Nobody is going to google anything, man. Fix the OP with an explanation. I can't talk about work stuff if you're going to be this lazy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123] * 1
    #21916369 - 07/08/15 06:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Fuck unions.  They are anachronisms and useless


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21916444 - 07/08/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The rise of the middle class has come in no small part because of the labor movement. The fall of the union movement has coincided with its diminishing fortunes.


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OfflineAdolin
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: koods]
    #21916455 - 07/08/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

noone has an absolute right to work. they have to figure it out for themselves and find something that they are good at, and can prove it.


if i dont want to hire you, guess what, asshole? i wont fucking hire you. i don't need a reason.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: koods]
    #21916464 - 07/08/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The rise of the middle class in the US came about because the rest of the world was in ruins after WW2.  Even FDR decried public sector unions and he was actually right about something for once.  There is no rationale for unions anymore.  Companies don't get to collude to set wages.  It is illegal.  Why should union labor get to collude?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Adolin]
    #21916468 - 07/08/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Definitely right to work. Fuck the closed shops and crooked union bosses that just want to take your dues.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Adolin]
    #21916469 - 07/08/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gresh said:
noone has an absolute right to work. they have to figure it out for themselves and find something that they are good at, and can prove it.


if i dont want to hire you, guess what, asshole? i wont fucking hire you. i don't need a reason.



I don't think you understand the term.  It is a specific thing.  Google it right to work wiki


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OfflineAdolin
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916482 - 07/08/15 07:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

yup. youre right. i had no idea what they meant, i was just inferring from the thread title


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916492 - 07/08/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Nobody is going to google anything, man. Fix the OP with an explanation. I can't talk about work stuff if you're going to be this lazy.



WTF guy I'm not getting paid for this Call me lazy? it took more energy typing this than it would for you to google it.
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Fuck unions.  They are anachronisms and useless


I am not talking about the SEIU type unions If I'm on a scafold 200 feet in the air and fall off even while harnessed I want someone to go to bat for me. And the my post says discuss intelligently. Can you explain your reasoning or are you gonna just post rhetoric?


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916502 - 07/08/15 07:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Moron


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916504 - 07/08/15 07:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>If I'm on a scafold 200 feet in the air and fall off even while harnessed I want someone to go to bat

If you fall 200 feet you don't need someone to go to bat for you. You need to be buried.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916514 - 07/08/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

r00tuuu123 said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Nobody is going to google anything, man. Fix the OP with an explanation. I can't talk about work stuff if you're going to be this lazy.



WTF guy I'm not getting paid for this Call me lazy? it took more energy typing this than it would for you to google it.





Fine. I googled it. A quick summary would still be nice to focus the discussion a bit.

Isn't there a middle ground between the two?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916526 - 07/08/15 07:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If you fall off a scaffold that was not defective due to negligence by your employer you have no recompense for negligence and all your med bills plus pay will be made from worker's compensation insurance.  If you are working on a scaffold you would probably be stunned by how much workmen's comp costs your employer.  For my category it is 15% of every gross employee dollar.  That equals the combined employer and employee contribution to the FICA scam


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21916533 - 07/08/15 07:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Moron



Thank you


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916534 - 07/08/15 07:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Denying somebody else the ability to take your job by working harder and/or for less is an act of violence that hurts society as a whole.  Striking is fine, collective action is fine, denying the employer the right to hire somebody else is not.  That is the kind of behavior that makes corporate monopolies both bad and illegal - the same should hold for labor monopolies.


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916589 - 07/08/15 07:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you fall off a scaffold that was not defective due to negligence by your employer you have no recompense for negligence and all your med bills plus pay will be made from worker's compensation insurance.  If you are working on a scaffold you would probably be stunned by how much workmen's comp costs your employer.  For my category it is 15% of every gross employee dollar.  That equals the combined employer and employee contribution to the FICA scam



So what are you trying to say You still have not answered the question. Using the scaffold as an example if I fall even if I'm following all of OSHAs rules so to you it = Fuck you charlie deal with it? Obviously you have never worked a job where you were in any danger other than a paper cut.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916590 - 07/08/15 07:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Your a typical ignorant American


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21916611 - 07/08/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Your a typical ignorant American




Ignorant of what?  Your perspective?  :lol:  Calling somebody ignorant when you disagree is a sign of a frustrated and ineffective debater.


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: DieCommie]
    #21916638 - 07/08/15 07:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Denying somebody else the ability to take your job by working harder and/or for less is an act of violence that hurts society as a whole.  Striking is fine, collective action is fine, denying the employer the right to hire somebody else is not.  That is the kind of behavior that makes corporate monopolies both bad and illegal - the same should hold for labor monopolies.



I can agree to an extent to your statement But on the other hand if you got 1 guy with a complaint you write it off but if you have 100 you have to take notice How much is your life worth to you? Unfortunately unions do not look after the rank and file like they used to but I'd still rather have someone in my corner.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916654 - 07/08/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If 100 people want different pay or working conditions they are free to demand it or quit.  If its is 100 people the employer will take notice and make a tough decision.  This is how it should be.  Without the right to work the employees will hold the employer hostage to whatever demands they have, reasonable or not.


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InvisibleImperfect Iam
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21916669 - 07/08/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Right to work is a wolf in sheeps clothing, why should someone be able to enjoy all the benefits of being a union member without having to pay there fair share?

Koods is completely right with his comment, and it is a shame unions are in the decline, just ask anyone who has worked in a non right to work state vs working in a right to work state which one is better.

The middle class is disappearing cause of this anti-worker agenda.

Think about it, who is about the only people to stand up against big corporations?  They can't do this adequatly with freeloaders!


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All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd

Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Imperfect Iam]
    #21916683 - 07/08/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Imperfect Iam said:
Right to work is a wolf in sheeps clothing, why should someone be able to enjoy all the benefits of being a union member without having to pay there fair share?




Because I don't want to be in the union.  I don't want to strike, I have a right to keep working whether you want me to strike or not.  You can keep your "benefits", they aren't that great anyway.


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InvisibleImperfect Iam
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: DieCommie]
    #21916700 - 07/08/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well then don't join the union, simple :shrug:


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All you touch, and all you see, is all your life will ever be- Pink Floyd

Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans- John Lennon


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Imperfect Iam]
    #21916713 - 07/08/15 08:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

In a non right to work state that would mean you don't work.  Fuck that shit.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Imperfect Iam]
    #21916720 - 07/08/15 08:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Imperfect Iam said:
Well then don't join the union, simple :shrug:




I don't.  That is the right I enjoy if I'm in a right to work state.  The employer and I can still exchange labor for pay no matter what you and your union buddies want to do.  If the union doesn't want to give me their "benefits" they don't have to.  If I don't have that right then I am not allowed to keep working even if I want to if your union decides to strike.


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: DieCommie]
    #21916736 - 07/08/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yea I guess you're right we should all work for minimum wage and donate the rest of our pay to the shareholders. Oh what Bob you got hurt sorry to hear that  we can put you on house nigger duty till you can pick cotton again. Seriously wtf we should be prospering rather than buying shit from china,pakistan and what's left of Rusia If those assholes wanna work for free let em, I do know this though even if we had a strong manufacturing base we would lose a war with china or rusia Fuck even a war with Sicily or columbia.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916745 - 07/08/15 08:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What does this have to do with the right to work? 

You want your manufacturing base back and yet you want unions to have more power?  :crazy2:

I work in manufacturing and my job will likely be outsourced in my lifetime.  I don't want unions anywhere near my fab.


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OfflineDTCharlieB
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21916751 - 07/08/15 08:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you fall off a scaffold that was not defective due to negligence by your employer you have no recompense for negligence and all your med bills plus pay will be made from worker's compensation insurance.  If you are working on a scaffold you would probably be stunned by how much workmen's comp costs your employer.  For my category it is 15% of every gross employee dollar.  That equals the combined employer and employee contribution to the FICA scam




Workera comp is insane. I own a business with 2 other guys and as owners we aren't required to have workers comp.  But when we had two other guys working with us we paid close to 14 grand a year for their workers comp.  And we only work 8 to 9 months out of the year.  We do roofing and siding mainly so the chance for getting hurt is there, but we always emphasize safety and luckily no one has been hurt.  Since then the two guys we had working for us have gone on to other jobs.  Between that and other taxes we pay a crap load and then people worder why getting a window replaced or anything else related to that cost so much.  It's not us that's making a fortune I guarantee you that. Also paid my workers about 10 dollars an hour starting out and usually loose money off of them for a few months until they get the swing of things.  These guys worked hard and we moved them up to 15 an hour then they started slacking and complained they didn't get paid enough all while we are losing a shit load on them because they got their raises and decided to not do anything.  And then people want to raise the minimum wage to 15 an hour?  That would kill many businesses.  We're doing alot better now with just me and my other partner doing all the work, it's hard but, christ,  unless I want to hire under the table it's hard to find someone that works hard and efficiently to make the business any money.

I'm rambling but back on topic.  I've seen the most lazy ass people make a lot of money while doing nothing under union jobs.  Also I've seen the exact opposite and save a hard workers job because they got hurt on the job and would otherwise be fired if not for unions.

So many situations vary wildly with these two things it's hard to have a strong opinion one way or another.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: DieCommie]
    #21916765 - 07/08/15 08:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Your a typical ignorant American




Ignorant of what?  Your perspective?  :lol:  Calling somebody ignorant when you disagree is a sign of a frustrated and ineffective debater.




I'm in no way frustrated and I never claimed to be a debater


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: DTCharlieB]
    #21916770 - 07/08/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

reading this makes me very happy i've been smart enough to figure out how to make a job for myself. Fuck all this shit.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: DTCharlieB]
    #21916785 - 07/08/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I always paid a reasonable wage based on what you could do and what I could charge.  If I doubled their pay there would be no jobs.  I am not a welfare service.  I have to compete and sometimes that is against illegal fucktools who warehouse a bunch of cunts in an apartment and then truck them to the site.  Then if one of them gets hurt they sue the shit out of the asshole homeowner who went cheap.  Good.  Fuck them all.

In all my years I had one comp claim by an employee and that was because he shot himself with a nail gun.  Fucking idiot.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916809 - 07/08/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So that's why you don't like unions you are a business owner ( not claiming your a asshole boss) but usually it depends what side of the fence your on... Business owners generally dislike unions, because it gives theyre workers rights, and you have to treat them fairly


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OfflineMoxyOx
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21916894 - 07/08/15 08:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Is that what you think? Fresh. You're real green to the ways of the world aren't ya.


--------------------
No one behind, no one ahead.
The path the ancients cleared has closed.
And the other path, everyone's path,
easy and wide, goes nowhere.
I am alone and find my way.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MoxyOx]
    #21916911 - 07/08/15 08:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Go get a union job, then msg me back


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21916922 - 07/08/15 08:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
So that's why you don't like unions you are a business owner ( not claiming your a asshole boss) but usually it depends what side of the fence your on... Business owners generally dislike unions, because it gives theyre workers rights, and you have to treat them fairly




No.  Even as a worker before I had a business I couldn't stand those lazy fucks.  I would not have joined a union for anything.  They were just so clearly scammers.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916933 - 07/08/15 08:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ya scammers that fight for a good wage, retirement,  dental, medical etc and when you get fired they fight for your job back... Ya real assholes


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916937 - 07/08/15 08:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
What does this have to do with the right to work? 

You want your manufacturing base back and yet you want unions to have more power?  :crazy2:

I work in manufacturing and my job will likely be outsourced in my lifetime.  I don't want unions anywhere near my fab.



1 questions,statements Where does the metal you do fabrication with and 2 what is your hourly rate?
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I always paid a reasonable wage based on what you could do and what I could charge.  If I doubled their pay there would be no jobs.  I am not a welfare service.  I have to compete and sometimes that is against illegal fucktools who warehouse a bunch of cunts in an apartment and then truck them to the site.  Then if one of them gets hurt they sue the shit out of the asshole homeowner who went cheap.  Good.  Fuck them all.

In all my years I had one comp claim by an employee and that was because he shot himself with a nail gun.  Fucking idiot.



I aplaud your Ideals but on the other side of the coin you also need protection for your workers to make a living wage. I know a ton of guys that do trades  some are at union jobs and get paid comensurate to their work and others who do the exact same work get paid considerably less. So how do you determine who gets a raise that is in line with their work ethic?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916983 - 07/08/15 08:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly..  I work in the beer industry and I make roughly double that my non union brewers make, for the same work. When all the companies could afford to pay my wage


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21916995 - 07/08/15 08:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What the market will bear.  Union carpenters around here are protected by the government with nonsense prevailing wage laws for projects.  I do residential construction and I have to compete with other contractors to get jobs.  It's still good money just not 100,000 a year money.  Even the illegals that people pick up at the train station get the equivalent of about 20 an hour.  Everybody who has to pay for union projects, and that is most often the taxpayer, is getting hosed.  Badly.  They are overpaid prima donna slackers.  I know.  I've seen them in action.  They don't get shit done and will wait all day for a union plumber if they need a plumbing valve turned off.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21917018 - 07/08/15 09:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I always paid my workers the best that I could.  If they worked hard and got a job done early and made me some money on a particular job they all got a bonus.  But if they were lazy asses and we broke even or even lost money on a job I paid them their original pay even though I lost money.  I learned the phrase "If you give an inch they'll take a mile" the hard way. 

My partners and I were smart enough that we never went bankrupt but we lost money the first few years but now we haven't lost money on a job in 3 Years and that's only when we dropped the dead weight.  Well they actually left on their own but it worked out to benefit us.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21917096 - 07/08/15 09:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
  Union carpenters around here are protected by the government with nonsense prevailing wage laws for projects. 


Well thenyour beef should not be with the carpenters or their union, but with the legislators. Do you work for free I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say a big fat no why should the guys that work for you work for free?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21917179 - 07/08/15 09:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

"right to work" is a euphemism for the right to get screwed by your employer.  It is a union breaking tactic, and it has been very effective.  If people can enjoy the benefit of the union, without contributing to it, they will, because people are selfish.  If union membership declines, the union has less ability to bargain for better wages etc. If unions have less bargaining power, they get a shittier deal. if they get a shittier deal, the freeloaders get a shittier deal. so on and so forth. 





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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21917224 - 07/08/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

People aren't forced to work any job. If their talented enough or work hard enough they more then likely can find a better paying job then the one they have.  If they can't find a better paying job they can start their own business. I worked for someone who paid me a whole lot less then what I should have been getting for the work I was doing. He didn't want to pay me any more then that so I quit and started my own business with what I learned and the tools that I had to buy to work for him. I nearly quadrupled what I was making for him and am now one of his competitors.

Nobody's forcing anyone to work a shit job. There's always better jobs out there and if you strive to find one you more then likely will.  I hear people complain about their job all the time yet they do nothing to find a better one. And I so know pepole who love their job and I saw how hard they worked to get to that point.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21917252 - 07/08/15 10:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly.  Because with a capitalist society,  employers have little incentive to pay good wages. And usually pay as little as possible


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21917363 - 07/08/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I try to pay my employees as much as I can (when I have them).  I do understand this is not the norm though.  If someone works hard and efficiently they should get paid accordingly. I know alot of employers are out to get as much money as they can and squeeze every doliar that they can out of their employees. What alot of people don't realize though is how much employers have to pay in taxes, workers comp, insurance,  etc. It's hard, especially for smaller businesses to pay their employees what they deserve.  But like I said before if an employee of mine busts their ass and makes me some cash I will compensate accordingly.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: DTCharlieB]
    #21917482 - 07/08/15 11:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DTCharlieB said:
I try to pay my employees as much as I can (when I have them).  I do understand this is not the norm though.  If someone works hard and efficiently they should get paid accordingly. I know alot of employers are out to get as much money as they can and squeeze every doliar that they can out of their employees. What alot of people don't realize though is how much employers have to pay in taxes, workers comp, insurance,  etc. It's hard, especially for smaller businesses to pay their employees what they deserve.  But like I said before if an employee of mine busts their ass and makes me some cash I will compensate accordingly.



See you actually get it to an extent but if most employers had the kind of people who go above and beyond They still pocket the cash rather than paying their people better. It's not so much the money but the gesture. I do not have the words to explain this the way I wan't to. And yes a union does protect slackers but in right to work states employers often pay every one as a slacker. I've been on both sides of the coin employer and employee so I'm not being biased. All in all you get what you pay for. You wanna be a dick and say your welcome to go elsewhere well you know damn well that it is a buyers market but if your employees are unified they will police themselves as far as Slackers and Rate busters.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: DTCharlieB]
    #21917633 - 07/09/15 12:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm glad to hear you have morals and try to.make things fair for people. But usually the problem isn't about small businesses like yours,  but with big business,  and corporations. That have huge amounts of profit,  and enjoy huge tax breaks,  and still nickel and dime employees. Paying as little as possible,  no benefits ( when they can afford it) no holidays etc so it's vital you have a strong union ( that isn't bribed)  to fight for you, so can earn a decent living, and not get fucked around


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21918194 - 07/09/15 06:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Your a typical ignorant American




:you're::douchewink:


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21918876 - 07/09/15 10:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
I'm glad to hear you have morals and try to.make things fair for people. But usually the problem isn't about small businesses like yours,  but with big business,  and corporations. That have huge amounts of profit,  and enjoy huge tax breaks,  and still nickel and dime employees. Paying as little as possible,  no benefits ( when they can afford it) no holidays etc so it's vital you have a strong union ( that isn't bribed)  to fight for you, so can earn a decent living, and not get fucked around



What horseshit.  When companies cane get together to set wages I'll accept employees getting together to negotiate them. But they can't.  You don't like the deal at one company go to another one.  Stop whining.  Unions are collusion, coercion and monopolism.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21918985 - 07/09/15 10:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

What horseshit.  When companies cane get together to set wages I'll accept employees getting together to negotiate them. But they can't. 


:canthelpbutlaugh:


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21920074 - 07/09/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Go watch the documentry food Inc, there is a part where it shows how the meat packing industry was union with good wages.  But the companies got greedy and wouldn't raise wages with inflation,  pay benefits etc. And they got together with the government to hire illegal immigrants from Mexico ( placing adds on Mexican bus stops,  newspaper etc) to work in the states at they're plant ( Tyson foods for example)  while being an illegal immigrant might I add. And the companies made a deal with the government that they could only take away X amount of employees a day for it wouldn't impact production...  that's a perfect example of companies getting together to establish low wages. I may have missed a few points, but watch FOOD INC and it is there


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21920108 - 07/09/15 02:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

They either do that or overseas producers take all our market share and no one has a job.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21920146 - 07/09/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

How can you possibly say that when it's the companies that are making record profits. Oh and how much do ceos make???


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21920187 - 07/09/15 02:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It makes no difference what the ceo makes. If he made nothing and they divided up his salary each employee might get a couple dollars a year extra. Woopie!


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21920211 - 07/09/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ok go see how much the wal mart ceo makes compared to the employees


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21920215 - 07/09/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Divide it by millions of employees and its just a few dollars a year like I said.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21920225 - 07/09/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Obviously you haven't looked at anything,  I just googled ceo vs worker pay and look what comes up


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21920247 - 07/09/15 02:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You look it up.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21920259 - 07/09/15 02:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I did and it proves my point


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21920285 - 07/09/15 02:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So you say. No quotes, no links, go away.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21920325 - 07/09/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Can't put quotes or links on my phone


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 2
    #21920352 - 07/09/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Fuck unions. Every time you pay your union dues, the communists win.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 3
    #21920359 - 07/09/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Can't put quotes or links on my phone




That's what I'd say too if I was pulling my argument out of my ass :rolleyes:


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21920389 - 07/09/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Can't put quotes or links on my phone




That's what I'd say too if I was pulling my argument out of my ass :rolleyes:




Good one!


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21920392 - 07/09/15 03:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Go type it into google yourself


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21920417 - 07/09/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You Americans buying into this anti union propaganda,  I don't understand how anyone could be against them... Why? Cuz of union dues?  So what! Paying 20 bucks a month for job security and benefits, sounds like a pretty good trade off to me :shrug:


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #21920539 - 07/09/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
You Americans buying into this anti union propaganda,  I don't understand how anyone could be against them...



You Canadians buying into this pro union propaganda, I don't understand how anyone could be for them. . .


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace] * 1
    #21920694 - 07/09/15 04:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have no problem with voluntary private unions.

I have problems with public unions and unions that force you to join in order to br employed by the company.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Shins]
    #21920920 - 07/09/15 05:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You obviously have very little knowledge on the subject, the reason why unions force you to join to be employed by the company is because they negotiate your contact. Every employee is governed by that contract, and the company has to follow the contract too


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21920986 - 07/09/15 05:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Unions make business non competitive. That is why so many jobs are moving off shore.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #21921008 - 07/09/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
You obviously have very little knowledge on the subject, the reason why unions force you to join to be employed by the company is because they negotiate your contact. Every employee is governed by that contract, and the company has to follow the contract too





Oh I have knowledge.  I said thst I have a problem with it being mandatory that a union negotiates a contract on my behalf.  I want to have the freedom to negotiate my own contract with a company and compete with the union if I choose.  I have a problem with government legislation that forces companies to play nall with unions.


I'm all in favot of non-forced, voluntary private unions, co-op, or communes for all I care, as long as it is private and voluntary and as long as the government does not pass legislation to favor private unions.


public sector unions should be banned if for no other reason than that they are absolutely anti-democracy.  The people elect democratic representatives and then the unions demand to collective bargain eith them.  The people have spoken and our representatives have tabled a budget.  Public unions should not be able to try and subvert the democratic process.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921115 - 07/09/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That's because companies want cheap labour.... They can afford to pay but don't want to.. That's why they go to China or Mexico for they can pay a fifth of the wage


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Shins]
    #21921120 - 07/09/15 06:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I get your point but you can't have a work force of some union and non union members, it doesn't work like that


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921126 - 07/09/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You really think business can compete with china, Indonesia, fillipines, india, etc etc paying union wages and having slacker union workers? Maybe in the 50's but not today. Other countries are not burdened by unions.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921150 - 07/09/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So agian the problem comes back to company choosing to move over seas to get around paying decent wages. PS those countries are known for using child labour


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921183 - 07/09/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Or maybe we can agree that the world is a fucked up place, with all big business operating in bad faith. and capitalism is about making people at the top all the money,  while the lowly labourer barely gets by while breaking his back day in and day out.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921224 - 07/09/15 06:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>So agian the problem comes back to company choosing to move over seas to get around paying decent wages

No, the point once again went right over your head. They had to go offshore to survive, to be able to compete in the marketplace against other countries which do not have as much featherbedding as we do here.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921240 - 07/09/15 06:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I suspect that the idea of competition is lost on the little ones who got trophies for participating in order to bolster their self esteem.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921293 - 07/09/15 06:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

They make the goods for us... Don't buy into that,  that they HAVE  to move,  they can afford to pay wages,  don't act like they are strapped for cash


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921305 - 07/09/15 06:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You obviously have no clue about even basic economics. Obumble may make you his employment czar or something. But you have to be black.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921310 - 07/09/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

And you know so much about running a business how exactly?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921317 - 07/09/15 06:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This is going no where... I'm not gonna convince you and your not going to convince me


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #21921326 - 07/09/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Enjoy your welfare benefits.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921329 - 07/09/15 06:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
This is going no where... I'm not gonna convince you and your not going to convince me




That can be said about every debate ever had.


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[quote]Sheekle said:
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921331 - 07/09/15 06:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I work full time and make really good money,  benefits,  retirement,  I'm set for life( unless the company shuts down)


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #21921345 - 07/09/15 06:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
I work full time and make really good money,  benefits,  retirement,  I'm set for life( unless the company shuts down)




It probably will, with loads of slacker union workers on the payroll. They are probably looting the pension fund right now in preparation for the shut down. Time to update your resume


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921361 - 07/09/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Actually no the company itself will never shut down ( nets over a billion a year) only if our particular plant shuts down


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921371 - 07/09/15 07:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So now you're a fortune teller?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921379 - 07/09/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

And no I'm not biased I do agree that the  union protects idiots that shouldn't be down there,  but you can't really blame them because they can't pick and choose who they fight for:shrug:


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #21921390 - 07/09/15 07:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Generations ago, unions were a good thing. They served an actual purpose.

Now they're only purpose is making sure people who don't deserve to keep their job get to.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921398 - 07/09/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Ya and if you were one of those people,  or accidentally fucked up and got fired,  youd sure be glad the union was there to help you


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921406 - 07/09/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, you're right. If I was a lazy fuck that didn't do my job, I would be happy that the union helped me keep my job.

But that's not the case. I actually work for a living.


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[quote]Sheekle said:
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #21921414 - 07/09/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'll fire anybody I want any time I want for any reason I want.  If you don't like it start your own company and compete with me.  My guess is it will not go well for you.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921418 - 07/09/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Say you made a simple mistake and cost the company money and they try hanging you? Then the union backs you up


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921419 - 07/09/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>I'll fire anybody I want any time I want for any reason I want.

You can't fire me


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921420 - 07/09/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'll fire anybody I want any time I want for any reason I want.  If you don't like it start your own company and compete with me.  My guess is it will not go well for you.




Perfect example of why unions are good


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921423 - 07/09/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Say you made a simple mistake and cost the company money and they try hanging you? Then the union backs you up




If I'm costing the company money, instead of making them money, I should be fired.

Simple as that.


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[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921431 - 07/09/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It's noble you think that way, it's a good attitude,... But don't lose perspective


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921432 - 07/09/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Say you made a simple mistake and cost the company money and they try hanging you? Then the union backs you up



If you cost me money why should I keep your incompetent ass?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921435 - 07/09/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>I'll fire anybody I want any time I want for any reason I want.

You can't fire me




You are right.  I would never have hired you


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921437 - 07/09/15 07:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe I should join a union! Then I can sit in the corner and smoke crack all day instead of working!


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[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace] * 1
    #21921445 - 07/09/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You can do eet!


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921448 - 07/09/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Being union doesn't mean you don't do any work


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921452 - 07/09/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Being union doesn't mean you don't do any work




Sure, but it means you don't have to.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921458 - 07/09/15 07:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

But you do...


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921474 - 07/09/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Doesn't sound like it to me.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921479 - 07/09/15 07:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'll fire anybody I want any time I want for any reason I want.  If you don't like it start your own company and compete with me.  My guess is it will not go well for you.




Perfect example of why unions are good



You wouldn't think that if it was your company.  Fucks ups cost the other employees as well.  If I don't make money because you are an inept shit I have less money to pay good workers and less money to dole out for bonuses.  If I make money off your ass I'll keep you.  If I lose money off your ass I'll kick it to the curb.  Your welfare state kleptocism is exactly why unions are bullshit.  You don't like how the company is treating you?  Start your own.  Why do you need other people to fight your battles for you?.  Testicular inadequacy?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921482 - 07/09/15 07:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Obviously you've never worked in a union environment. They will order you to work, if you refuse they will suspend you. They will also tell the union to tell you to work.  The only way you get out of work is if it's not.your job


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921496 - 07/09/15 07:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm just bustin' your balls with the "don't have to work" thing, but I only say that to prove a point. That's the type of mindset unions lead to.

Unions teach you that you're not responsible for your actions, and that someone will always be around to clean up your messes.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921499 - 07/09/15 07:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Like I said it depends what side of the fence you are on,  employer and it's bad, employee it's good...  Ok so a dickhead boss tries forcing you to stay ot or some bullshit,  and when you refuse he  fires you. Sinse tour union they'll acknowledge that's it's un just and it won't hold up,  if you r non union,  you just lost your job


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921500 - 07/09/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Being union doesn't mean you don't do any work



Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Obviously you've never worked in a union environment. They will order you to work, if you refuse they will suspend you. They will also tell the union to tell you to work.  The only way you get out of work is if it's not.your job



I've worked on jobs that involved unions.  They are lazy prima dona fucks who won't do anything not specifically their job in order to prtect other unions.  For instance the carpenter won't sweep even a tiny room so that the laborers will have a job. 





Unions vastly increase the cost of a construction job due to inefficiency, incompetence and collusion.  They fuck all customers but they fuck the taxpayer the most.  Union workers are greedy fucks who couldn't make it in competition without the government support


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921503 - 07/09/15 07:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I agree. But you have to take the good with the bad... And if your an employee the good far out weights the bad


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921511 - 07/09/15 07:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Being union doesn't mean you don't do any work



Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Obviously you've never worked in a union environment. They will order you to work, if you refuse they will suspend you. They will also tell the union to tell you to work.  The only way you get out of work is if it's not.your job



I've worked on jobs that involved unions.  They are lazy prima dona fucks who won't do anything not specifically their job in order to prtect other unions.  For instance the carpenter won't sweep even a tiny room so that the laborers will have a job. 





Unions vastly increase the cost of a construction job due to inefficiency, incompetence and collusion.  They fuck all customers but they fuck the taxpayer the most.  Union workers are greedy fucks who couldn't make it in competition without the government support




Agian your proving my point that unions try to create jobs


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921539 - 07/09/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Zappa can't fire me or refuse to hire me. Ha ha. I hire guys like him all the time to do some dirty work.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921553 - 07/09/15 07:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I can't fire you because I would never hire you.

Unions kill jobs, they don't create them.  The only jobs unions create are in the office of the union for bureaucrats who prey on membership by sucking from the work of union members.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921560 - 07/09/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Actually no its the opposite,  unions try to create every pointless job that they can because let's face it more workers = more union dues...  What don't you get about it depends what side of the fence your on


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921565 - 07/09/15 07:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

But I'm not an employer. I'm the low man on the totem pole.

Unions may help with instant gratification. As in "No, I'm not staying late and you can't fire me for it", but it fucks everything up in the long haul. I may not have wanted to stay late, but there was a reason I was being asked to.

It's like tenure at schools. The teacher might be a lazy alcoholic fuck, but she can't be fired because she's been there too long. Which fucks everything up.

Y'know what I mean? This post might be a little incoherent, though, as I finally just caught me a buzz, but I feel as if I've made my point clear.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921569 - 07/09/15 07:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You can't refuse to hire me because I would never ask you for a job. I find out of work carpenters like you all day long when I need some work done. You were posting on the board this morning when you were supposed to be working.

mm, you are on the side of the slackers.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21921573 - 07/09/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Actually no its the opposite,  unions try to create every pointless job that they can because let's face it more workers = more union dues...  What don't you get about it depends what side of the fence your on




But that's like saying welfare checks are a good thing because the person receiving them just got "free money".

We're all pretty much saying the same thing, we just disagree on whether it's a good thing or not.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921576 - 07/09/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You can't refuse to hire me because I would never ask you for a job. I find out of work carpenters like you all day long when I need some work done. You were posting on the board this morning when you were supposed to be working.

mm, you are on the side of the slackers.




Dude I'm 58 and set.  I work at my leisure.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921596 - 07/09/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>I work at my leisure.

That's what your last supervisor said too. lol


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921636 - 07/09/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well  they are good in a way because that's 300 extra bucks that junkie wouldn't have to break into cars to steal.  but I definitely understand what you guys are saying,  and even though I don't fuck my company around with the union and do a good job, I'm a "what if" kinda guy. And to me there's  always a possibility of something happening, so to me paying 20 bucks a month in dues,  is like " insurance " that I won't be losing my job to some bullshit


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21921657 - 07/09/15 08:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>I work at my leisure.

That's what your last supervisor said too. lol




Supervisor?  What's that?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21922347 - 07/09/15 10:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Say you made a simple mistake and cost the company money and they try hanging you? Then the union backs you up



If you cost me money why should I keep your incompetent ass?




i broke a toilet tank on the very first job i worked on as a plumber's helper.
the boss set me loose on it, and went about other things.  I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground, so i first tightened one side down, and then moved on to the other. naturally, the tank shattered.  I was worried that he was going to dock my pay, but i went and fessed up.  He wasn't mad at me, he was mad at himself for not instructing me properly.  He didn't dock my pay or fire me.  Good thing too, because even though i cost him money that day, i made him much more in the years we worked together.  His pay was shit though, even though he himself was a union man.  i always thought that that was ironic.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21922374 - 07/09/15 10:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I was saying they could not will... If they were union they wouldn't have the option


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21922415 - 07/09/15 10:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'll fire anybody I want any time I want for any reason I want.  If you don't like it start your own company and compete with me.  My guess is it will not go well for you.




Perfect example of why unions are good



You wouldn't think that if it was your company.  Fucks ups cost the other employees as well.  If I don't make money because you are an inept shit I have less money to pay good workers and less money to dole out for bonuses.  If I make money off your ass I'll keep you.  If I lose money off your ass I'll kick it to the curb.  Your welfare state kleptocism is exactly why unions are bullshit.  You don't like how the company is treating you?  Start your own.  Why do you need other people to fight your battles for you?.  Testicular inadequacy?




As a business owner, i'm sure you know that the upfront cost of real advertising is prohibitive for many.  Sure, even a poor guy has money for business cards and flyers, but that doesn't bring in the calls.  Its yellowpage ads that bring calls, and the ads are worth every penny, but you better have a lot of pennies. sure, its tax deductable, but again, you need to have the money saved up to begin with.  Also, a good worker, and a good businessperson are not both embodied by every man.  they are different skillsets.
example:
I have some strong skills in the good worker dept.  I do clean work, the first try, at a reasonably quick pace.  I'm not lazy, and i don't complain that its too hard.

My businessman creds are not so hot.  I'm flaky about answering my phone. without someone to tell me i have to go to work or i'm fired, i get lazy. maybe i don't wanna work today? maybe i wanna go fishing instead? i'm the boss right?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21922444 - 07/09/15 10:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Being union doesn't mean you don't do any work



Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Obviously you've never worked in a union environment. They will order you to work, if you refuse they will suspend you. They will also tell the union to tell you to work.  The only way you get out of work is if it's not.your job



I've worked on jobs that involved unions.  They are lazy prima dona fucks who won't do anything not specifically their job in order to prtect other unions.  For instance the carpenter won't sweep even a tiny room so that the laborers will have a job. 





Unions vastly increase the cost of a construction job due to inefficiency, incompetence and collusion.  They fuck all customers but they fuck the taxpayer the most.  Union workers are greedy fucks who couldn't make it in competition without the government support




what you are saying is both completely true, and also utter bullshit.
yeah, unions stick together to protect each others jobs. yes, it costs more to pay someone to do each job rather than just their own trade. What would you prefer? a return to the days of robber barons? should we eliminate the 40 hour work week? Eliminate OT?  You and i both know, that the only way for Labor to protect it's interests, is to band together. call it collusion if you want, call it greedy, but its the truth.
Also, i think that especially in the case of trade unions, you are overlooking the benefit of the extensive training through the apprenticeship program.  I see shit work every goddam day, but it isn't being done by the guys who spent 6 years learning to be journeymen.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21922483 - 07/09/15 10:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ThatKidWithTheFace said:
But I'm not an employer. I'm the low man on the totem pole.

Unions may help with instant gratification. As in "No, I'm not staying late and you can't fire me for it", but it fucks everything up in the long haul. I may not have wanted to stay late, but there was a reason I was being asked to.





nah bro, look at the propmakers union at the studios.  These guys regularly have to work 6 12 hour days, and sometimes it gets upped to 16 hours.  They can be told that they have to work through their lunches and breaks. They pretty much have to do whatever.  What the union does, is it makes sure that they get paid extra if they get forced to work overtime, it helps negotiate a good wage, so that its worth it to these guys to work so much.  It helps ensure that the propmakers get paid a meal penalty if they have to work through lunch.  It helps ensure that these workers have great health insurance.  And it lays out rules so that nobody can tell a laborer to do a propmakers job or vice versa. likewise with painters , grips, etc.

So whats the problem?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21922538 - 07/09/15 11:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I like this guy. I couldn't have said it better myself.  I think these people have fixated biases against unions and there will be no convincing them :shrug:


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21923514 - 07/10/15 08:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Without unions, whenever there is a surpluss of labourers in one field, what do you think will happen with these labourers?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21923571 - 07/10/15 08:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Being union doesn't mean you don't do any work



Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Obviously you've never worked in a union environment. They will order you to work, if you refuse they will suspend you. They will also tell the union to tell you to work.  The only way you get out of work is if it's not.your job



I've worked on jobs that involved unions.  They are lazy prima dona fucks who won't do anything not specifically their job in order to prtect other unions.  For instance the carpenter won't sweep even a tiny room so that the laborers will have a job. 





Unions vastly increase the cost of a construction job due to inefficiency, incompetence and collusion.  They fuck all customers but they fuck the taxpayer the most.  Union workers are greedy fucks who couldn't make it in competition without the government support




what you are saying is both completely true, and also utter bullshit.
yeah, unions stick together to protect each others jobs. yes, it costs more to pay someone to do each job rather than just their own trade. What would you prefer? a return to the days of robber barons? should we eliminate the 40 hour work week? Eliminate OT?  You and i both know, that the only way for Labor to protect it's interests, is to band together. call it collusion if you want, call it greedy, but its the truth.
Also, i think that especially in the case of trade unions, you are overlooking the benefit of the extensive training through the apprenticeship program.  I see shit work every goddam day, but it isn't being done by the guys who spent 6 years learning to be journeymen.



I never had an apprentice program and I am a master carpenter.  Business owners do not get to work a 40 hour week.  They don't get time and a half either.  They don't get paid leave or paid vacations.  They take risks and usually get rewarded but sometimes they fuck up a bid and have to work for nothing.  Nothing, in case you didn't know,  is less than minimum wage.

If you don't like the terms of employment with me you are quite welcome to fuck off back to the pub.  I'll get somebody else.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21923579 - 07/10/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe we have different union experiences because we have experienced different organizations?

I mean, both sides are right in this, I think. You don't want workers to lose all their rights and get fucked in the ass like it was before unions, but you also do not want that prima donna shit that harms the employer.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Turtletotem]
    #21923617 - 07/10/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So its either do away with all worker protections or have unions, nothing in between? What a straw argument that is!

I see zap is still spouting off on the pub during work hours.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Turtletotem]
    #21923695 - 07/10/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I finished the last job.  I generally will not start a job on a Friday.  And I don't have to work at all if I don't feel like it.  Why is Stonehenge posting on a work day?

Quote:

Turtletotem said:
Maybe we have different union experiences because we have experienced different organizations?

I mean, both sides are right in this, I think. You don't want workers to lose all their rights and get fucked in the ass like it was before unions, but you also do not want that prima donna shit that harms the employer.



There are plenty of government protections that don't involve unions.  My experience with union people is that they are a bunch of whiners who don't give a fuck about getting the job done.  They don't harm the employer.  They harm the consumer.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21923784 - 07/10/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I finished the last job.  I generally will not start a job on a Friday.  And I don't have to work at all if I don't feel like it.  Why is Stonehenge posting on a work day?

Quote:

Turtletotem said:
Maybe we have different union experiences because we have experienced different organizations?

I mean, both sides are right in this, I think. You don't want workers to lose all their rights and get fucked in the ass like it was before unions, but you also do not want that prima donna shit that harms the employer.



There are plenty of government protections that don't involve unions.  My experience with union people is that they are a bunch of whiners who don't give a fuck about getting the job done.  They don't harm the employer.  They harm the consumer.




I can see that totally happening, yeah. People are the worst. :lol:
Still, I do not trust our government one bit with protecting worker's rights, based on past actions.
A happy medium would be ideal, I think.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #21923799 - 07/10/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Nobody is going to google anything, man. Fix the OP with an explanation. I can't talk about work stuff if you're going to be this lazy.





the union says he doesnt have to and you dont have the ability to fire him, it's in the contract


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21923805 - 07/10/15 09:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Mr.GuessWork said:
Nobody is going to google anything, man. Fix the OP with an explanation. I can't talk about work stuff if you're going to be this lazy.





the union says he doesnt have to and you dont have the ability to fire him, it's in the contract




:rofl:


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21924146 - 07/10/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I finished the last job.  I generally will not start a job on a Friday.  And I don't have to work at all if I don't feel like it.  Why is Stonehenge posting on a work day?




Ever heard of being rained out. I don't think I've had more than 2 rain free days in a row in the past 2 months. If I was still in a Union at least you get Show up pay if they put the job on hold and don't call you off due to weather. All I can do is try to squeeze my small jobs in when I get a break in the rain. Sure if you're hiring out of the hall you get alot of junk but at least where I live if you're good at what you do and dependable and you go on a job and the company just keeps you and in most cases they retire from that company So to say all union workers are fucktards is just wrong. Maybe it is because you're from down south where peoples work ethic is doing 2 hours worth of work in 8.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21924191 - 07/10/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm in NY.  Almost always have been except for 3 years in Lexington KY fresh out of college.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21924222 - 07/10/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'm in NY.  Almost always have been except for 3 years in Lexington KY fresh out of college.



Sorry man I thought you were in Florida for some reason. But yeah if a union affords good workers protection why would you be against hiring good workers? And as far as prevailing wage jobs, they are bid accordingly you make more money your workers make more money so it 's not like if you bid low you're not making a nice chunk of change for yourself. :shrug: Do you post performance bonds on your jobs?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21924232 - 07/10/15 12:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not against hiring good workers.  I just don't think union workers are better and they are definitely whinier.  And then there is the issue of the fact that I'd also be paying union bureaucrats and funding their political contributions to scumbags.  Nah.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21924242 - 07/10/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Do you post performance bonds on your jobs?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21924254 - 07/10/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21924280 - 07/10/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So you do no big jobs? or open bid jobs?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21924295 - 07/10/15 12:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No.  I do new residential construction and remodeling.  Some small commercial occasionally.  I looked into government shit a while ago.  No fucking thanks.  It's fucking ridiculous.  Just as an FYI I won't do big commercial either.  Because they are done by a bunch of Donald Trumps who demand shit and then declare bankruptcy.  He has fucked more people than Bernie Madoff.  At least Madoff only fucked people who willingly handed their money to him.  I wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire.

I have to bid for all my jobs


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21924309 - 07/10/15 12:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>I do new residential construction and remodeling.

When you aren't goofing off like today.

With trump's billions, he is doing much better than you.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21924322 - 07/10/15 12:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Bosses like you are why workers need rights.  You think just because you own your own company your some sorta Zappa God and can rule with a iron first


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21924353 - 07/10/15 12:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Bosses like you are why workers need rights.  You think just because you own your own company your some sorta Zappa God and can rule with a iron first




But, in case you weren't aware, that's how the real world works.


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[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21924368 - 07/10/15 01:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

In a unionized environment you have rights..  I've yelled and sworn at my supervisor and I didn't get so much as a warning :shrug: the only reasons you guys are giving to be anti union are: paying dues, getting out of work/ not having to work


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #21924407 - 07/10/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I don't need a Union because I'm not a slacker.

Everyone I know who is union does it because they can slack off on the job and get paid way more than they are worth.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Shins]
    #21925236 - 07/10/15 04:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So you'd rather do more work for less money?  I don't see the logic


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21925314 - 07/10/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
In a unionized environment you have rights..  I've yelled and sworn at my supervisor and I didn't get so much as a warning :shrug: the only reasons you guys are giving to be anti union are: paying dues, getting out of work/ not having to work




That's deplorable! You should've been fired on the spot.

Why do you assume anyone has a problem with dues? You kinda just pulled that one out of your ass.

Fuck it, let's all smoke crack and get welfare checks!


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[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123] * 1
    #21925320 - 07/10/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'd rather be honest yeah. 

Its a matter of work ethnic.

Most people have terrible and inconsistent ethics,  that's why there are unions.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Shins] * 1
    #21925323 - 07/10/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly.

:nodofunderstanding:


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[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925346 - 07/10/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Definitely right to work. Fuck the closed shops and crooked union bosses that just want to take your dues.





Page 1.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21925485 - 07/10/15 05:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I never had an apprentice program and I am a master carpenter.  Business owners do not get to work a 40 hour week.  They don't get time and a half either.  They don't get paid leave or paid vacations.  They take risks and usually get rewarded but sometimes they fuck up a bid and have to work for nothing.  Nothing, in case you didn't know,  is less than minimum wage.

If you don't like the terms of employment with me you are quite welcome to fuck off back to the pub.  I'll get somebody else.




congratulations.  you must have had a skilled guy teaching you.  I am a journeyman plumber, and i also didn't go through a union apprenticeship.  I got lucky to have a very skilled plumber teaching me the trade.  Not everyone is so lucky.  Here in L.A. it seems like more than half of the "plumbers" are being taught to do shit wrong.  They don't know the difference between a vent 90, and a medium sweep 90.  i see guys hook up drains with no fall. etc.  That wouldn't happen if they were union guys.  just sayin.  Also, i know its possible to underbid a job and end up in the red, because i've done it.  But i learned from it, and i have a feeling that you don't do that to yourself too often.(you seem like a savvy guy).  i would bet that most of the time, you as the owner, collect the lions share of the dough.(even after paying a decent wage and all the insurance expenses etc.)
Finally, i've seen you say that youre a master carpenter, but i don't know what that means.  For all i know, you are a "master" framer or something.  hell, framing is like laying carpet(a monkey could learn the trade in 6 months).  Then again, you could be a finish carpenter or a cabinet maker, which would require a respectable amount of skill.  I prefer to assume the latter, because most of the framers i know are dumber than a box of rocks.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
    #21925503 - 07/10/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Definitely right to work. Fuck the closed shops and crooked union bosses that just want to take your dues.





Page 1.



So that one person's argument applies to all of us? What are union dues? $20? How cheap do you think we are?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21925533 - 07/10/15 05:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>I do new residential construction and remodeling.

When you aren't goofing off like today.

With trump's billions, he is doing much better than you.



Trump is a serial bankrupt who was born on third base and thought he hit a triple.  Guess how many times my companies have filed for bankruptcy.  Trump has probably fucked more people than Madoff.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21925550 - 07/10/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Definitely right to work. Fuck the closed shops and crooked union bosses that just want to take your dues.





Page 1.



So that one person's argument applies to all of us? What are union dues? $20? How cheap do you think we are?


When I had my book in the heavy equipment operators union dues were 45$ every quarter. I could kick myself for dropping my card but I started doing new constructions and remodeling and made bank for a few years.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21925552 - 07/10/15 05:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I never had an apprentice program and I am a master carpenter.  Business owners do not get to work a 40 hour week.  They don't get time and a half either.  They don't get paid leave or paid vacations.  They take risks and usually get rewarded but sometimes they fuck up a bid and have to work for nothing.  Nothing, in case you didn't know,  is less than minimum wage.

If you don't like the terms of employment with me you are quite welcome to fuck off back to the pub.  I'll get somebody else.




congratulations.  you must have had a skilled guy teaching you.  I am a journeyman plumber, and i also didn't go through a union apprenticeship.  I got lucky to have a very skilled plumber teaching me the trade.  Not everyone is so lucky.  Here in L.A. it seems like more than half of the "plumbers" are being taught to do shit wrong.  They don't know the difference between a vent 90, and a medium sweep 90.  i see guys hook up drains with no fall. etc.  That wouldn't happen if they were union guys.  just sayin.  Also, i know its possible to underbid a job and end up in the red, because i've done it.  But i learned from it, and i have a feeling that you don't do that to yourself too often.(you seem like a savvy guy).  i would bet that most of the time, you as the owner, collect the lions share of the dough.(even after paying a decent wage and all the insurance expenses etc.)
Finally, i've seen you say that youre a master carpenter, but i don't know what that means.  For all i know, you are a "master" framer or something.  hell, framing is like laying carpet(a monkey could learn the trade in 6 months).  Then again, you could be a finish carpenter or a cabinet maker, which would require a respectable amount of skill.  I prefer to assume the latter, because most of the framers i know are dumber than a box of rocks.




Finish carpentry is the monkey carpentry.  The math involved for framing is intense.  Consider this.  You have a hip roof with unequal pitches and the overhang has to be the same.  Whatcha gonna do?  Hang a door?  No, framing is way more complex than little work unless you're doing tract houses with trusses.  That isn't what I do.  Go outside, drive around and look at some crazy ass roofs.  Somebody figured them out.  Trim is bullshit.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21925585 - 07/10/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, trump with his $10B is doing pretty well for a guy who doesn't have to hammer a nail. He can afford to spend a B or two having fun as he is now.


--------------------
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925600 - 07/10/15 06:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If he has 10 billion dollars how come hes declared bankruptcy so many times and ripped off so many people?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21925620 - 07/10/15 06:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

fair enough.  :nodofunderstanding:

on a related note, i once worked on a job where a newlywed couple from australia had bought their first home, and hired their real estate inspector to be the GC on the remodel.  the customers wanted high ceilings so the guy said no problem, and just knocked out all the ceiling joists, threw up some drywall and called it good.  This same guy ran all the drains backwards towards the kitchen, and left multiple leaking sweat joints on the copper pipes.  the mud was a foot deep under the entire house, and green and black mold was growing on every surface.  the guy was a monster. definitely not a union man.  helluva negotiator though. apparently, this guy managed to get these poor dumb people to pay him off on the final third, and sign papers releasing him of liability.

but you didn't address my other points.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21925647 - 07/10/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
fair enough.  :nodofunderstanding:

on a related note, i once worked on a job where a newlywed couple from australia had bought their first home, and hired their real estate inspector to be the GC on the remodel.  the customers wanted high ceilings so the guy said no problem, and just knocked out all the ceiling joists, threw up some drywall and called it good.  This same guy ran all the drains backwards towards the kitchen, and left multiple leaking sweat joints on the copper pipes.  the mud was a foot deep under the entire house, and green and black mold was growing on every surface.  the guy was a monster. definitely not a union man.  helluva negotiator though. apparently, this guy managed to get these poor dumb people to pay him off on the final third, and sign papers releasing him of liability.

but you didn't address my other points.




That is not only an incompetent contractor but he has no business being an inspector because he is a fucking idiot who knows nothing about construction.  His incompetence has nothing to do with unionism.  I'm a fucking carpenter and I know how to sweat a joint that doesn't leak.  Do you know who else are retards?  The homeowners.

What other points would you like me to address?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21925673 - 07/10/15 06:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If he has 10 billion dollars how come hes declared bankruptcy so many times and ripped off so many people?




That's how he got rich, just like all the politicians. Most people must have thought they didn't get ripped off because he is not in jail. He could buy and sell you out of his pocket change or one days income.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21925708 - 07/10/15 06:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I never had an apprentice program and I am a master carpenter.  Business owners do not get to work a 40 hour week.  They don't get time and a half either.  They don't get paid leave or paid vacations.  They take risks and usually get rewarded but sometimes they fuck up a bid and have to work for nothing.  Nothing, in case you didn't know,  is less than minimum wage.

If you don't like the terms of employment with me you are quite welcome to fuck off back to the pub.  I'll get somebody else.




congratulations.  you must have had a skilled guy teaching you.  Not everyone is so lucky.  Here in L.A. it seems like more than half of the "plumbers" are being taught to do shit wrong.  Also, i know its possible to underbid a job and end up in the red, because i've done it.  But i have a feeling that you don't do that to yourself too often.(you seem like a savvy guy).  i would bet that most of the time, you as the owner, collect the lions share of the dough.(even after paying a decent wage and all the insurance expenses etc.)





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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21925755 - 07/10/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I never had an apprentice program and I am a master carpenter.  Business owners do not get to work a 40 hour week.  They don't get time and a half either.  They don't get paid leave or paid vacations.  They take risks and usually get rewarded but sometimes they fuck up a bid and have to work for nothing.  Nothing, in case you didn't know,  is less than minimum wage.

If you don't like the terms of employment with me you are quite welcome to fuck off back to the pub.  I'll get somebody else.




congratulations.  you must have had a skilled guy teaching you.  I am a journeyman plumber, and i also didn't go through a union apprenticeship.  I got lucky to have a very skilled plumber teaching me the trade.  Not everyone is so lucky.  Here in L.A. it seems like more than half of the "plumbers" are being taught to do shit wrong.  They don't know the difference between a vent 90, and a medium sweep 90.  i see guys hook up drains with no fall. etc.  That wouldn't happen if they were union guys.  just sayin.  Also, i know its possible to underbid a job and end up in the red, because i've done it.  But i learned from it, and i have a feeling that you don't do that to yourself too often.(you seem like a savvy guy).  i would bet that most of the time, you as the owner, collect the lions share of the dough.(even after paying a decent wage and all the insurance expenses etc.)
Finally, i've seen you say that youre a master carpenter, but i don't know what that means.  For all i know, you are a "master" framer or something.  hell, framing is like laying carpet(a monkey could learn the trade in 6 months).  Then again, you could be a finish carpenter or a cabinet maker, which would require a respectable amount of skill.  I prefer to assume the latter, because most of the framers i know are dumber than a box of rocks.




Finish carpentry is the monkey carpentry.  The math involved for framing is intense.  Consider this.  You have a hip roof with unequal pitches and the overhang has to be the same.  Whatcha gonna do?  Hang a door?  No, framing is way more complex than little work unless you're doing tract houses with trusses.  That isn't what I do.  Go outside, drive around and look at some crazy ass roofs.  Somebody figured them out.  Trim is bullshit.




Exactly.  I bet over 90 percent of the population couldn't build a basic house yet alone these new houses with crazy roof angles iuand crazy dormers and people want secret hidden rooms where they can stash their valuables or drugs or whatever they don't want anyone to ever find.


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925758 - 07/10/15 07:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If he has 10 billion dollars how come hes declared bankruptcy so many times and ripped off so many people?




That's how he got rich, just like all the politicians. Most people must have thought they didn't get ripped off because he is not in jail. He could buy and sell you out of his pocket change or one days income.



And you respect this?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925768 - 07/10/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If he has 10 billion dollars how come hes declared bankruptcy so many times and ripped off so many people?




That's how he got rich, just like all the politicians. Most people must have thought they didn't get ripped off because he is not in jail. He could buy and sell you out of his pocket change or one days income.




But you can't, so what does it matter?


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[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21925788 - 07/10/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Trump has no shot.  Relax


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21925928 - 07/10/15 08:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I respect his ability to make money and no, he does not rip people off though there have been some controversies. He is having fun and when this is all over he will cash in on the additional fame he earned doing it. Better hope he doesn't see this thread and send some goons over to have a talk with you.

If going bankrupt is crooked then why is it legal?


--------------------
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21925961 - 07/10/15 08:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I respect his ability to make money and no, he does not rip people off though there have been some controversies. He is having fun and when this is all over he will cash in on the additional fame he earned doing it. Better hope he doesn't see this thread and send some goons over to have a talk with you.




I have my own goons.  I'm a contractor, too, and the guys like me.  I doubt anybody likes combover except for his money.
Quote:

 

If going bankrupt is crooked then why is it legal?




I don't know.  I think it is horseshit.  If he has billions why does he get to screw people he borrowed money from?  I also don't think he has billions but he probably does have enough to pay the people he ripped off.  From the TV show, not from anything else.  How the fuck do you lose money owning a casino?


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21925982 - 07/10/15 08:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

>I have my own goons.

Lol, if they came to your door it would be like "yes sir, no sir, it won't happen again sir"

>How the fuck do you lose money owning a casino?

Lots of people have. I've seen the closed casinos in vegas and its worse in atlantic city. The overhead is huge, tons of people to pay, bribes to give, taxes, and every cheat in the world passes through trying to rip you off. The local economy just tanked. He must not have lost much if he still has ten big ones. BTW, that's not what you call big ones, thousands.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21926005 - 07/10/15 08:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>I have my own goons.

Lol, if they came to your door it would be like "yes sir, no sir, it won't happen again sir"




I don't think you understood me.
Quote:



>How the fuck do you lose money owning a casino?

Lots of people have. I've seen the closed casinos in vegas and its worse in atlantic city. The overhead is huge, tons of people to pay, bribes to give, taxes, and every cheat in the world passes through trying to rip you off. The local economy just tanked. He must not have lost much if he still has ten big ones. BTW, that's not what you call big ones, thousands.




So sad.  I do not believe Trump has billions, by the way.  Most of his money came from the TV show.  He is heavily leveraged.  If my house is worth a million but the balance of my mortgage is 750K how much do I have?  I'm keeping the math simple for you.  Trump is a huckster and a fraud and a scumbag


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21926021 - 07/10/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This is the stupidest shit I've ever seen :lol: "Donald Trump could kick your ass hur hur hur"

What does that have to do with anything? It's not like you know the man. Get off his dick.

You're acting like he's the coolest cat on the planet, but what does he have to do with anything?

"My dad could kick your dad's ass hur hur"


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21926039 - 07/10/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Trump could kick both your asses, hur hur. Zap is jealous.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21926065 - 07/10/15 08:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

trumpty-dumpty must be a good negotiator at least; i heard that he doesn't have a morality clause in any of his T.V. contracts


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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21926162 - 07/10/15 09:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not talkin' down about the man, as he's obviously doing something right! I just feel that this fella has an unhealthy obsession with the man.


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[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
u bet ur ass it is.[/quote]


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21926194 - 07/10/15 09:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Stonefuck is just trolling zappa.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21926202 - 07/10/15 09:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I know.  Because....JEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21926206 - 07/10/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
trumpty-dumpty must be a good negotiator at least; i heard that he doesn't have a morality clause in any of his T.V. contracts



I don't think he has any more TV contracts.  I think he has been FIRED!


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