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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
#21921576 - 07/09/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: You can't refuse to hire me because I would never ask you for a job. I find out of work carpenters like you all day long when I need some work done. You were posting on the board this morning when you were supposed to be working.
mm, you are on the side of the slackers.
Dude I'm 58 and set. I work at my leisure.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
#21921596 - 07/09/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>I work at my leisure.
That's what your last supervisor said too. lol
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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MagicMush123
moon person



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,101
Loc: Chinada
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Well they are good in a way because that's 300 extra bucks that junkie wouldn't have to break into cars to steal. but I definitely understand what you guys are saying, and even though I don't fuck my company around with the union and do a good job, I'm a "what if" kinda guy. And to me there's always a possibility of something happening, so to me paying 20 bucks a month in dues, is like " insurance " that I won't be losing my job to some bullshit
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Stonehenge]
#21921657 - 07/09/15 08:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >I work at my leisure.
That's what your last supervisor said too. lol
Supervisor? What's that?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,867
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
#21922347 - 07/09/15 10:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
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MagicMush123 said: Say you made a simple mistake and cost the company money and they try hanging you? Then the union backs you up
If you cost me money why should I keep your incompetent ass?
i broke a toilet tank on the very first job i worked on as a plumber's helper. the boss set me loose on it, and went about other things. I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground, so i first tightened one side down, and then moved on to the other. naturally, the tank shattered. I was worried that he was going to dock my pay, but i went and fessed up. He wasn't mad at me, he was mad at himself for not instructing me properly. He didn't dock my pay or fire me. Good thing too, because even though i cost him money that day, i made him much more in the years we worked together. His pay was shit though, even though he himself was a union man. i always thought that that was ironic.
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MagicMush123
moon person



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,101
Loc: Chinada
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
#21922374 - 07/09/15 10:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was saying they could not will... If they were union they wouldn't have the option
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,867
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
#21922415 - 07/09/15 10:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
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zappaisgod said: I'll fire anybody I want any time I want for any reason I want. If you don't like it start your own company and compete with me. My guess is it will not go well for you.
Perfect example of why unions are good
You wouldn't think that if it was your company. Fucks ups cost the other employees as well. If I don't make money because you are an inept shit I have less money to pay good workers and less money to dole out for bonuses. If I make money off your ass I'll keep you. If I lose money off your ass I'll kick it to the curb. Your welfare state kleptocism is exactly why unions are bullshit. You don't like how the company is treating you? Start your own. Why do you need other people to fight your battles for you?. Testicular inadequacy?
As a business owner, i'm sure you know that the upfront cost of real advertising is prohibitive for many. Sure, even a poor guy has money for business cards and flyers, but that doesn't bring in the calls. Its yellowpage ads that bring calls, and the ads are worth every penny, but you better have a lot of pennies. sure, its tax deductable, but again, you need to have the money saved up to begin with. Also, a good worker, and a good businessperson are not both embodied by every man. they are different skillsets. example: I have some strong skills in the good worker dept. I do clean work, the first try, at a reasonably quick pace. I'm not lazy, and i don't complain that its too hard.
My businessman creds are not so hot. I'm flaky about answering my phone. without someone to tell me i have to go to work or i'm fired, i get lazy. maybe i don't wanna work today? maybe i wanna go fishing instead? i'm the boss right?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,867
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
#21922444 - 07/09/15 10:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
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MagicMush123 said: Being union doesn't mean you don't do any work
Quote:
MagicMush123 said: Obviously you've never worked in a union environment. They will order you to work, if you refuse they will suspend you. They will also tell the union to tell you to work. The only way you get out of work is if it's not.your job
I've worked on jobs that involved unions. They are lazy prima dona fucks who won't do anything not specifically their job in order to prtect other unions. For instance the carpenter won't sweep even a tiny room so that the laborers will have a job.
Unions vastly increase the cost of a construction job due to inefficiency, incompetence and collusion. They fuck all customers but they fuck the taxpayer the most. Union workers are greedy fucks who couldn't make it in competition without the government support
what you are saying is both completely true, and also utter bullshit. yeah, unions stick together to protect each others jobs. yes, it costs more to pay someone to do each job rather than just their own trade. What would you prefer? a return to the days of robber barons? should we eliminate the 40 hour work week? Eliminate OT? You and i both know, that the only way for Labor to protect it's interests, is to band together. call it collusion if you want, call it greedy, but its the truth. Also, i think that especially in the case of trade unions, you are overlooking the benefit of the extensive training through the apprenticeship program. I see shit work every goddam day, but it isn't being done by the guys who spent 6 years learning to be journeymen.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,867
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Quote:
ThatKidWithTheFace said: But I'm not an employer. I'm the low man on the totem pole.
Unions may help with instant gratification. As in "No, I'm not staying late and you can't fire me for it", but it fucks everything up in the long haul. I may not have wanted to stay late, but there was a reason I was being asked to.
nah bro, look at the propmakers union at the studios. These guys regularly have to work 6 12 hour days, and sometimes it gets upped to 16 hours. They can be told that they have to work through their lunches and breaks. They pretty much have to do whatever. What the union does, is it makes sure that they get paid extra if they get forced to work overtime, it helps negotiate a good wage, so that its worth it to these guys to work so much. It helps ensure that the propmakers get paid a meal penalty if they have to work through lunch. It helps ensure that these workers have great health insurance. And it lays out rules so that nobody can tell a laborer to do a propmakers job or vice versa. likewise with painters , grips, etc.
So whats the problem?
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MagicMush123
moon person



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,101
Loc: Chinada
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
#21922538 - 07/09/15 11:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I like this guy. I couldn't have said it better myself. I think these people have fixated biases against unions and there will be no convincing them
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Turtletotem
Dutch Delight



Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 3,763
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: MagicMush123]
#21923514 - 07/10/15 08:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Without unions, whenever there is a surpluss of labourers in one field, what do you think will happen with these labourers?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: ballsalsa]
#21923571 - 07/10/15 08:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said: Being union doesn't mean you don't do any work
Quote:
MagicMush123 said: Obviously you've never worked in a union environment. They will order you to work, if you refuse they will suspend you. They will also tell the union to tell you to work. The only way you get out of work is if it's not.your job
I've worked on jobs that involved unions. They are lazy prima dona fucks who won't do anything not specifically their job in order to prtect other unions. For instance the carpenter won't sweep even a tiny room so that the laborers will have a job.
Unions vastly increase the cost of a construction job due to inefficiency, incompetence and collusion. They fuck all customers but they fuck the taxpayer the most. Union workers are greedy fucks who couldn't make it in competition without the government support
what you are saying is both completely true, and also utter bullshit. yeah, unions stick together to protect each others jobs. yes, it costs more to pay someone to do each job rather than just their own trade. What would you prefer? a return to the days of robber barons? should we eliminate the 40 hour work week? Eliminate OT? You and i both know, that the only way for Labor to protect it's interests, is to band together. call it collusion if you want, call it greedy, but its the truth. Also, i think that especially in the case of trade unions, you are overlooking the benefit of the extensive training through the apprenticeship program. I see shit work every goddam day, but it isn't being done by the guys who spent 6 years learning to be journeymen.
I never had an apprentice program and I am a master carpenter. Business owners do not get to work a 40 hour week. They don't get time and a half either. They don't get paid leave or paid vacations. They take risks and usually get rewarded but sometimes they fuck up a bid and have to work for nothing. Nothing, in case you didn't know, is less than minimum wage.
If you don't like the terms of employment with me you are quite welcome to fuck off back to the pub. I'll get somebody else.
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Turtletotem
Dutch Delight



Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 3,763
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
#21923579 - 07/10/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Maybe we have different union experiences because we have experienced different organizations?
I mean, both sides are right in this, I think. You don't want workers to lose all their rights and get fucked in the ass like it was before unions, but you also do not want that prima donna shit that harms the employer.
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Edited by Turtletotem (07/10/15 08:24 AM)
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Turtletotem]
#21923617 - 07/10/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So its either do away with all worker protections or have unions, nothing in between? What a straw argument that is!
I see zap is still spouting off on the pub during work hours.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Turtletotem]
#21923695 - 07/10/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I finished the last job. I generally will not start a job on a Friday. And I don't have to work at all if I don't feel like it. Why is Stonehenge posting on a work day?
Quote:
Turtletotem said: Maybe we have different union experiences because we have experienced different organizations?
I mean, both sides are right in this, I think. You don't want workers to lose all their rights and get fucked in the ass like it was before unions, but you also do not want that prima donna shit that harms the employer.
There are plenty of government protections that don't involve unions. My experience with union people is that they are a bunch of whiners who don't give a fuck about getting the job done. They don't harm the employer. They harm the consumer.
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Turtletotem
Dutch Delight



Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 3,763
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
#21923784 - 07/10/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I finished the last job. I generally will not start a job on a Friday. And I don't have to work at all if I don't feel like it. Why is Stonehenge posting on a work day?
Quote:
Turtletotem said: Maybe we have different union experiences because we have experienced different organizations?
I mean, both sides are right in this, I think. You don't want workers to lose all their rights and get fucked in the ass like it was before unions, but you also do not want that prima donna shit that harms the employer.
There are plenty of government protections that don't involve unions. My experience with union people is that they are a bunch of whiners who don't give a fuck about getting the job done. They don't harm the employer. They harm the consumer.
I can see that totally happening, yeah. People are the worst.  Still, I do not trust our government one bit with protecting worker's rights, based on past actions. A happy medium would be ideal, I think.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21923799 - 07/10/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Mr.GuessWork said: Nobody is going to google anything, man. Fix the OP with an explanation. I can't talk about work stuff if you're going to be this lazy.
the union says he doesnt have to and you dont have the ability to fire him, it's in the contract
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Turtletotem
Dutch Delight



Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 3,763
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: Prisoner#1]
#21923805 - 07/10/15 09:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
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Mr.GuessWork said: Nobody is going to google anything, man. Fix the OP with an explanation. I can't talk about work stuff if you're going to be this lazy.
the union says he doesnt have to and you dont have the ability to fire him, it's in the contract
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r00tuuu123
Now I'm just really piseed



Registered: 04/20/12
Posts: 8,507
Loc: I'll be there in a minute
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: zappaisgod]
#21924146 - 07/10/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: I finished the last job. I generally will not start a job on a Friday. And I don't have to work at all if I don't feel like it. Why is Stonehenge posting on a work day?
Ever heard of being rained out. I don't think I've had more than 2 rain free days in a row in the past 2 months. If I was still in a Union at least you get Show up pay if they put the job on hold and don't call you off due to weather. All I can do is try to squeeze my small jobs in when I get a break in the rain. Sure if you're hiring out of the hall you get alot of junk but at least where I live if you're good at what you do and dependable and you go on a job and the company just keeps you and in most cases they retire from that company So to say all union workers are fucktards is just wrong. Maybe it is because you're from down south where peoples work ethic is doing 2 hours worth of work in 8.
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Please report me to a Mod for hurting your punk ass hippie feelings And all time Champion thread killer.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Right to work vs Closed Shop [Re: r00tuuu123]
#21924191 - 07/10/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm in NY. Almost always have been except for 3 years in Lexington KY fresh out of college.
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