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OfflineIhateyou
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I don't think gender identity is real * 4
    #21915930 - 07/08/15 04:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.

  Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree  but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?

If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?


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OfflineMescalean
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou]
    #21915957 - 07/08/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's real, I'm just more curious as to physiologically why it is a phenomenon in the human psyche


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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Mescalean]
    #21915973 - 07/08/15 05:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What makes you think it's real? If it's real what makes a boy a boy or a girl a girl or a trans person a trans person? If it's not the sex or the way they conduct themselves then what is it? I used to think it was real but since I can't answer that question myself I think there's no reason to believe in gender identity.


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OfflineJamo
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Mescalean]
    #21915984 - 07/08/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The reason for the occurence of the phenomenon in the human psyche might just be the possibility of it being processed given the complexity of the human brain.


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InvisibleMalcolm_Xtasy
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou] * 5
    #21916019 - 07/08/15 05:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ihateyou said:
If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.

  Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree  but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?

If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?



What the fuck are you talking about?


--------------------
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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Malcolm_Xtasy]
    #21916032 - 07/08/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malcolm_Xtasy said:
Quote:

Ihateyou said:
If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.

  Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree  but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?

If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?



What the fuck are you talking about?



          What the fuck makes a person a boy a boy or a girl a girl?


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou] * 6
    #21916052 - 07/08/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This is one of those questions like "what would life be like if hands didnt exist?"

If a child were in complete isolation, away from media or societal influences, would he/she behave or dress any differently? Given a broad wardrobe, would he/she feel more comfortable wearing one style over another? Given a set of animal costumes, would he/she identify themselves as an ape and wear an ape costume every day?

Fact of the matter is theres no definitive answer because these are all hypothetical scenarios.


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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: I_was_the_walrus] * 1
    #21916103 - 07/08/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
This is one of those questions like "what would life be like if hands didnt exist?"

If a child were in complete isolation, away from media or societal influences, would he/she behave or dress any differently? Given a broad wardrobe, would he/she feel more comfortable wearing one style over another? Given a set of animal costumes, would he/she identify themselves as an ape and wear an ape costume every day?

Fact of the matter is theres no definitive answer because these are all hypothetical scenarios.



But if he did dress and act differently would that make him a girl? The idea that girls act and dress a certain way is frowned upon and understandably so. Girls don't always act girly so why does the way someone acts and dresses make them a girl or boy?


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou]
    #21916121 - 07/08/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Humans have big ass brains and a lot can go "wrong" (not that I think people who identify as a different gender than their birth sex are wrong.  I'm just using that word to indicate that many things, not just gender identity, are complicated for humans as compared to non-human animals because of our larger brains). 

I wonder if there has ever been non-human animals that identify as the opposite gender.


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Hippocampus]
    #21916191 - 07/08/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't doubt it, but just humans try to classify one sex as doing something that is gender specific. All girls don't wear dresses, just like all guys don't play sports.

It's just how a society classifies it all. But as society has been progressing, we are slowly blurring the lines of certain activities. But gender identity can also be changed by the chemicals in your body. THere was an "experiment" where a young boys penis was severely mutilated during circumcision, so they decide to cut it all off and raise him as a girl. He had deep psychological issues about his gender. He eventually killed himself at the age of 20. I can't remember the name of it though.


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Achillita] * 1
    #21916266 - 07/08/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I believe the subconscious need to present one's self uniquely goes way back. Even in the animal kingdom, the two genders have big colorful displays that have become a necessity for attraction and mating. Neanderthals had gender specific roles, and this dates back hundreds of thousands of years. So somebody might say "Well we're beyond that now. There doesnt exist a need for gender specific displays outside of societal aesthetics", and you're absolutely right. Does that mean its just going to disappear? Nope.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #21916278 - 07/08/15 06:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I identify as male.


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Achillita]
    #21916281 - 07/08/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This study is from 2004, but the summary suggests the authors believe gender identity is linked to hormones before birth, and not cultural factors.  Interesting

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09513590400018231

This study seems to think the same thing.  At least admitting that there was not current evidence for social environmental factors in gender identity.  Although, cognitive gender identity happens in early development, the gender is already permanently programmed into the fetal brain.   

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302211000252

I have no idea what this all means. 

But it seems that gender is truly a cultural definition which has changed over time, and in different circles.  I am science minded and tend to look at the concrete biological definitions of "male", and "female".  But these definitions are completely lacking in a human social context.  But to answer OP, I think that although socially "gender" is apt to change definitions, that does not somehow make any of those definitions somehow not real.  they have real implications to the culture that adopts them, and are as real as any other social construct.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou]
    #21916317 - 07/08/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ihateyou said:
If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.

  Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree  but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?

If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?



Gender identity isn't something tangible. It's not what you are, but you're belief about what you are. It's your sense of self, and not the self itself. Gender or sex is most certainly real, and it can be observed in every organism that reproduces through sex. Even flowers. Sexual dimorphism isn't just limited to anatomy, it also includes behavior. The thinking is that dimorphism is the inevitable result of sexual selection played out over time, with sexual characteristics coalescing into the two dominant trends.


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: zappaisgod] * 5
    #21916318 - 07/08/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I identify as male.




You post like a girl


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: blewmeanie]
    #21916343 - 07/08/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

Ihateyou said:
If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.

  Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree  but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?

If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?



Gender identity isn't something tangible. It's not what you are, but you're belief about what you are. It's your sense of self, and not the self itself. Gender or sex is most certainly real, and it can be observed in every organism that reproduces through sex. Even flowers. Sexual dimorphism isn't just limited to anatomy, it also includes behavior. The thinking is that dimorphism is the inevitable result of sexual selection played out over time, with sexual characteristics coalescing into the two dominant trends.




:thumbup:

OP, gender norms are learned, but gender itself is innate. Essentially, you are born male or female, and then you grow and learn along lines which are partially separated into "male" and "female" paths... i.e. a trans person would be trans in any society but their development in their identified gender would reflect the gender norms of the culture in which they are raised.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: I_was_the_walrus] * 4
    #21916355 - 07/08/15 06:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I identify as male.




You post like a girl



I'm gonna punch you in the pants.  How dare you challenge my gender identity, you fascist.


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OfflineGorlax
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916693 - 07/08/15 08:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

We dress based on how we are socially brought up. If a boy was born in isolation and they played TV shows where the men were dressing in womens clothes. Then that boy would dress in womens clothes. The introduction into something at a young age is what generally shapes someone mentally. When a child is growing up you are going to buy your son the boy toys because why the fuck would you not. Maybe trans people played with girl toys too much.


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Gorlax] * 2
    #21916777 - 07/08/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I was raised by 3 sisters. I was dressed up as a girl, forced to learn stupid dances, and played with girl toys. I didnt like it, even at that young age. I still had a blast, but I also preferred karate movies, monster trucks, and cowboy boots. I dont recall anybody ever telling me I should like those things over the others...I just did :shrug:


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OfflineGorlax
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #21917483 - 07/08/15 11:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

because you mimic what's expected. The same way you learn to speak.


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OfflineShining Cosmos
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Gorlax]
    #21917664 - 07/09/15 12:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think societal conditioning is the biggest factor.


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Offlineoccollegeboi
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Shining Cosmos] * 1
    #21917711 - 07/09/15 12:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Penis vagina


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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: occollegeboi]
    #21917949 - 07/09/15 03:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I identify somewhere in between with a bias towards female.

Anyway, gender is an extremely powerful social construct,
I find it kind of weird you need to ask what makes a man in society and what makes a woman. No one is completely 100% either, but in western society it is pretty clear what people what to be labeled as. There has been gender for a long time in the Play of Life, but the costumes and script changes through out the ages.


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou] * 1
    #21917981 - 07/09/15 03:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

In my opinion, what makes a boy a boy and a girl a girl, is whether they were obviously born one way or the other.

I know there are cases where people have birth defects and they have male and female organs, and I absolutely believe those people should have the right to choose how they want to identify.

I can't take people like Bruce Jenner seriously, though. Excuse me, Caitlyn Jenner. If somebody tells me they want to identify as a different gender, I have no problem with that.

If I knew Caitlyn Jenner, I would be happy to call him/her Caitlyn. The simple fact of the matter, though, is that Caitlyn Jenner is not a woman.

Caitlyn Jenner is a man who has altered his body to appear to look more like a woman.
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who wears clothes that would normally be worn by women.
Caitlyn Jenner is man who changed his/her name from Bruce, to a name which is normally used by females, Caitlyn.

This does not make him/her a woman.

There is a good New York Times article that makes some great points.

Quote:

People who haven’t lived their whole lives as women, whether Ms. Jenner or Mr. Summers, shouldn’t get to define us. That’s something men have been doing for much too long. And as much as I recognize and endorse the right of men to throw off the mantle of maleness, they cannot stake their claim to dignity as transgender people by trampling on mine as a woman.




The fact that he thinks he has the power to change that by paying a bunch of money and having some procedures, is a good example of out of control male privilege.

While we are on the easy questions-Rachel Dolezal is not black. She is white. Same situation. If she wants to 'identify' as a black person, by all means, go for it. However, that still doesn't change the fact that she is a white person, with white parents.


Edited by FlyOnTheWall (07/09/15 03:43 AM)


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21918007 - 07/09/15 04:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

FlyOnTheWall said:
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who has altered his body to appear to look more like a woman.
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who wears clothes that would normally be worn by women.
Caitlyn Jenner is man who changed his/her name from Bruce, to a name which is normally used by females, Caitlyn.

This does not make him/her a woman.




This is a sentiment that many transgenders run into and are bothered by. I can sort of see both sides of the argument though. But I lean towards the side of the transgender in this instance: if they feel they were born in the wrong body and they want to be regarded as the opposite sex from which they originally had the physical properties, then I'd say that's their choice and for the rest of society to respect. On the other hand, if elements of that society can't or won't accept this, then that's something to take into account as well. In some cases, you can't make everyone happy. But personally, I would be cautious in approaching a matter that may be only mildly relevant to you, but that's a deeply-rooted source of personal doubts and fear for the people you talk about. Mind you, I'm not judging you, but I would recommend trying to appreciate how deeply transgenders or gender-conflicted people feel about this. It's an essential part of their being and I see no reason for not accommodating them in their quest for peace with who they are.


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: koraks]
    #21918045 - 07/09/15 04:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

FlyOnTheWall said:
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who has altered his body to appear to look more like a woman.
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who wears clothes that would normally be worn by women.
Caitlyn Jenner is man who changed his/her name from Bruce, to a name which is normally used by females, Caitlyn.

This does not make him/her a woman.




This is a sentiment that many transgenders run into and are bothered by. I can sort of see both sides of the argument though. But I lean towards the side of the transgender in this instance: if they feel they were born in the wrong body and they want to be regarded as the opposite sex from which they originally had the physical properties, then I'd say that's their choice and for the rest of society to respect. On the other hand, if elements of that society can't or won't accept this, then that's something to take into account as well. In some cases, you can't make everyone happy. But personally, I would be cautious in approaching a matter that may be only mildly relevant to you, but that's a deeply-rooted source of personal doubts and fear for the people you talk about. Mind you, I'm not judging you, but I would recommend trying to appreciate how deeply transgenders or gender-conflicted people feel about this. It's an essential part of their being and I see no reason for not accommodating them in their quest for peace with who they are.




I hear ya, man. I would never say that to a transgender person.
IMO that would be wrong. IMO it would be similar to making fun of a handicapped or mentally ill person.

If a person thinks they can achieve real happiness by physically looking a certain way, they are most likely beyond help.

I am definitely more than happy to accommodate their (IMO) fantasy, though.
If I decided I wanted to identify as Elvis Presley, I would expect them to do the same.
That might sound sarcastic, but I am being totally serious. In real life, I would absolutely call a person by their chosen name/gender/race whatever.
The important thing to remember, though, is that in reality this doesn't change anything.

We live in a shared reality and in my opinion, it is pretty essential that we all act and base our lives on that shared reality.

I would be perfectly willing to pretend like Caitlyn Jenner was a woman, but even if everybody in the world calls her Caitlyn, and uses 'she' instead of 'he', it still doesn't change the reality of the situation, which is that Caitlyn is not a female.

I don't mean to sound like I have no sympathy for people who are struggling those feelings. I feel really sorry for them. That has to be brutal to go through.
My feeling sorry for them doesn't change the reality of the situation, though. The fact that transgender people feel sad sometimes doesn't change the situation, either.
Think about people in wheelchairs. They probably feel pretty damn sad really often. It is totally fucked up. I feel really sorry for them. I'm sure they wish they could just decide to not be handicapped.
People around them could even play along, and pretend the handicapped person isn't handicapped. They may believe that their 'soul' is not handicapped. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they are no longer handicapped.

There are facts of life we just cannot change. Whether this makes us miserable doesn't make any difference. Whether it makes us want to commit suicide doesn't make any difference. It's unfortunate, but that is the nature of reality.
There are also things in life we are going to not enjoy. People are always going to not like certain parts of their bodies, the families they were born into, etc. But unfortunately, not liking something, doesn't change the way things are.

edit: It really is a shame the world doesn't work like that, though. In my soul, I feel like I am at least 6 feet 5 inches tall. I think I would be so much happier if I wasn't short :lol:


Edited by FlyOnTheWall (07/09/15 04:58 AM)


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21918074 - 07/09/15 05:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Just so people know I am not a bigot, I want to add that I totally support gay marriage.

Gay marriage is a good example of something we DO have control over. The idea of marriage is something humans created, so humans are also in a position to decide whether marriage is between man and woman, man and man, or woman and woman.

We can make marriage anything we want, because marriage doesn't really exist. It is just a human made idea.

The same cannot be said for male and female.
Male and female are not social constructs.
Male and female are words created by humans, to describe physical conditions in reality which we have no control over.

Again, it is of course true that there are people who have both male and female sex organs. However, that does not blur the line for other people who are very definitely one way or the other.


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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #21920018 - 07/09/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
I was raised by 3 sisters. I was dressed up as a girl, forced to learn stupid dances, and played with girl toys. I didnt like it, even at that young age. I still had a blast, but I also preferred karate movies, monster trucks, and cowboy boots. I dont recall anybody ever telling me I should like those things over the others...I just did :shrug:



I wasn't saying that the way you are brought up influences what you'll like. I was saying that regardless of what you like since nothing that someone likes defines their gender liking the girl stuff wouldn't make you trans.


What BlindSophist said is the most interesting answer I've seen(haven't read them all yet) but even in that case I'm still not understanding what gender identity is or where it comes from.


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InvisibleGovam
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou] * 3
    #21920792 - 07/09/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You're born biologically male or female, sorry. There are certain hormonal errors, endocrine dysfunctions and birth defects that can change what you have physically. Anything beyond that is just a mental disturbance or conditioning by vegged out parents.

You can't alter your biology with cosmetic surgery, and even with hormone treatments you might as well kill yourself. Hope for your preferred chromosomes next go-round. Neither of these "solutions" focus on the real underlying mental disorder. Even if you want to talk in new age terms, there is obviously a miscommunication between your ascended self, your conscious mind and what's between your legs.

I always want to ask these people if they enjoy picking seeds out of their weed. They can't be smoking feminized strains, gender is a social construct after all.


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OfflineThatKidWithTheFace
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Govam]
    #21920796 - 07/09/15 04:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:


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[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
u bet ur ass it is.[/quote]


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OfflineGorlax
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21920817 - 07/09/15 04:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well in Taosim and Buddhism your suppose to have masculine and feminine traits. That's the ying and yang shit. Doesn't mean your suppose to be one side of the yin only... so says those religions.


Hey I don't care do what you want just don't make it so we have to change our laws as if it were some handicap. Soon enough trans people will be getting handicap parking spots.


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InvisibleThe Doobie Dude


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Gorlax] * 1
    #21920843 - 07/09/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Put a man in a room with no stimuli of anything.  He will grow up and have a higher sex drive then a woman, he will be competitive these are undeniable traits of testosterone.


--------------------

"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head.  If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.


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InvisibleThe Doobie Dude


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21920850 - 07/09/15 04:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

gender identity is real.  you konw what made the media people you know what the media does sells thinks to people based on what they like.  guys like certain things and girls like certain things.  boo hoo get over it


--------------------

"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head.  If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Govam]
    #21920866 - 07/09/15 05:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Govam said:
Neither of these "solutions" focus on the real underlying mental disorder




This. It is a mental disorder. It can also just be a fetish. It depends on how far the person takes it.


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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21921100 - 07/09/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Doobie Dude said:
gender identity is real.  you konw what made the media people you know what the media does sells thinks to people based on what they like.  guys like certain things and girls like certain things.  boo hoo get over it



Both sexes like things for both genders.

You must be really high right now because your sentences don't make sense and that's no insult. I'm just looking at what your mood says.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Govam]
    #21921335 - 07/09/15 06:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Govam said:
You're born biologically male or female, sorry. There are certain hormonal errors, endocrine dysfunctions and birth defects that can change what you have physically. Anything beyond that is just a mental disturbance or conditioning by vegged out parents.

You can't alter your biology with cosmetic surgery, and even with hormone treatments you might as well kill yourself. Hope for your preferred chromosomes next go-round. Neither of these "solutions" focus on the real underlying mental disorder. Even if you want to talk in new age terms, there is obviously a miscommunication between your ascended self, your conscious mind and what's between your legs.

I always want to ask these people if they enjoy picking seeds out of their weed. They can't be smoking feminized strains, gender is a social construct after all.




Approaches which focus on "the underlying mental disorder" do more harm than good. Conversion "therapy" is inhumane and results in a mutilation of the person at best, but quite often results in trauma and sometimes suicide.

I'm kind of surprised how little familiarity people have with this issue and its victims-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Leelah_Alcorn

In fact, trans people are happy and healthy when they are allowed to live in their identified gender. The mental disorder-- gender dysphoria-- occurs when this is not possible. Furthermore, sex reassignment through hormone therapy and genital surgery is not "cosmetic".

You're new here, so you'd do well to know we have quite a few trans members on the Shroomery, myself included. I don't appreciate being told to kill myself. IMHO you are off to a bad start here.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/09/15 07:01 PM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Shining Cosmos]
    #21921344 - 07/09/15 06:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shining Cosmos said:
I think societal conditioning is the biggest factor.




Societal condition determines how a gender is expressed, but gender identity is innate. I was saying this earlier in the thread. You are born either male- or female-identified (or, rarely, somewhere in between) and then your expression of your gender depends on how you are taught to express that gender by your culture and upbringing.


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You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineThatKidWithTheFace
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21921396 - 07/09/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:rolleyes:


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[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
u bet ur ass it is.[/quote]


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InvisibleMalcolm_Xtasy
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921415 - 07/09/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What part of that do you disagree with? She seems pretty spot on to me :shrug:


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21921424 - 07/09/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Have you ever read Middlesex by Eugenides?


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921514 - 07/09/15 07:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No I haven't, what's it about?


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21921540 - 07/09/15 07:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No spoiler.  Pulitzer winner.  Great book.  You should read it.  Trust me.  Have I ever steered you wrong?


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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921582 - 07/09/15 07:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I identify as male.



Incorrect. That is an outdated term. You identify as cis male.


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InvisibleGovam
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 2
    #21921620 - 07/09/15 08:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Quote:

Govam said:
You're born biologically male or female, sorry. There are certain hormonal errors, endocrine dysfunctions and birth defects that can change what you have physically. Anything beyond that is just a mental disturbance or conditioning by vegged out parents.

You can't alter your biology with cosmetic surgery, and even with hormone treatments you might as well kill yourself. Hope for your preferred chromosomes next go-round. Neither of these "solutions" focus on the real underlying mental disorder. Even if you want to talk in new age terms, there is obviously a miscommunication between your ascended self, your conscious mind and what's between your legs.

I always want to ask these people if they enjoy picking seeds out of their weed. They can't be smoking feminized strains, gender is a social construct after all.




Approaches which focus on "the underlying mental disorder" do more harm than good. Conversion "therapy" is inhumane and results in a mutilation of the person at best, but quite often results in trauma and sometimes suicide.

I'm kind of surprised how little familiarity people have with this issue and its victims-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Leelah_Alcorn

In fact, trans people are happy and healthy when they are allowed to live in their identified gender. The mental disorder-- gender dysphoria-- occurs when this is not possible. Furthermore, sex reassignment through hormone therapy and genital surgery is not "cosmetic".

You're new here, so you'd do well to know we have quite a few trans members on the Shroomery, myself included. I don't appreciate being told to kill myself. IMHO you are off to a bad start here.




Your post is funny because of the increased rate of suicide among post-op trannies. When did I preach therapy? Go do whatever you want, but I'm not supporting your mutilation, funding it, or altering my vocabulary to suit you.

Just kidding. At some point we all have to realize your ego is so huge, you assume all human interaction you have is a game of pretend aimed at making you feel fuzzy inside. This applies to all sick individuals who are separated from reality.

It's not that I'm new to the shroomery. It's that being offended inside your internet clubhouse is new to you. Obviously being ostracized and looked down upon is familiar, and new venues for self hate are just another milemarker in your life.


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InvisibleMalcolm_Xtasy
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Govam]
    #21921640 - 07/09/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

It's that being offended inside your internet clubhouse is new to you.




It's actually not,

Don't take it personally. She gets offended all the fucking time.


--------------------
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Govam]
    #21921680 - 07/09/15 08:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Did you know that the research you're citing is outdated and flawed? Also, "tranny" is a slur, just in case you'd like to modify your vocabulary so as to be less offensive.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21921687 - 07/09/15 08:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Go do whatever you want, but I'm not supporting your mutilation, funding it, or altering my vocabulary to suit you.




--------------------
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I'm ugly, Enlil is beautiful.
I'm a loser, Enlil is a winner.
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Malcolm_Xtasy] * 1
    #21921689 - 07/09/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I was playing coy.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleMalcolm_Xtasy
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21921690 - 07/09/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Over my head


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Malcolm_Xtasy] * 1
    #21921780 - 07/09/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Oh wow, he blocked me. :curbyourenthusiasm:


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21921972 - 07/09/15 09:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No spoiler.  Pulitzer winner.  Great book.  You should read it.  Trust me.  Have I ever steered you wrong?



I'll be sure to check it out sometime soon :thumbup:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #21921975 - 07/09/15 09:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

i don't think dogs are real.


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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: millzy]
    #21922120 - 07/09/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

why not?


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: D.M.T]
    #21922454 - 07/09/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

D.M.T said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I identify as male.



Incorrect. That is an outdated term. You identify as cis male.




Actually, he had it right.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleThe Doobie Dude


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #21922468 - 07/09/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

who honestly gives a fucking shit ill tell you me and 99% of most people


Majority rules


--------------------

"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head.  If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21922476 - 07/09/15 10:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Doobie Dude said:
who honestly gives a fucking shit ill tell you me and 99% of most people


Majority rules




Think you might be overestimating that figure just a bit.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21922479 - 07/09/15 10:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

nope honestly most people just carry on with there own business and could give a shit less

people think their shit is made out of gold and no one gives a flying fuck

social media can convince you otherwise i get it


--------------------

"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head.  If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21922484 - 07/09/15 10:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I was playing coy again. Sentence structure. Yours could use some work.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21922492 - 07/09/15 10:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

NO ONE GIVES A SHIT


--------------------

"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head.  If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
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OfflineDetached
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #21922496 - 07/09/15 10:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This is all dumbolarkie  :shakefist:


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OfflineLiquidVisions
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Detached]
    #21922843 - 07/10/15 12:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Gender is socially constructed. Society created what a woman should look like and what a man should look like. Therefore the fact that a woman shaves her legs and paints her face is pretty strange by itself and if a man were to do it it would be unusual in the eyes of society but in reality its just as strange as a female doing it.


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions]
    #21922907 - 07/10/15 01:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So whether a person shaves their legs or wears make-up is how we determine if someone is a woman or not nowadays?...

To me, the clothes you wear, the make up you wear, the way you talk, the name you use, etc., none of that means anything at all.

To me, what determines whether you are male or female, is your chromosomes, you penis or vagina, your ovaries or testes, etc.

Yes, there are intersex people. No, that doesn't blur the line between male and female for other people who are very definitely either male or female.

I got love and respect for all trans people, and I am happy to call people by their preferred name or gender.

I will never be able to convince myself that calling a person by a different name has any bearing on reality, though. That complete goes against all logic. IMO, a person who is born male and transitions to a female, is a trans person.

They are not female. IMO, their gender is still male, or 3rd gender, transgender. I will happily call them by a female name, and say she, but that doesn't make them a female...I'm not hating, that just seems like...it doesn't make any sense....

I'm sorry if I'm offending anybody, but hopefully you can have patience with those of us who have a little trouble wrapping our heads around how it all works.


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OfflineLiquidVisions
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21922922 - 07/10/15 01:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Not just shaved legs and makeup but you see where I'm getting at. I'm on a lot of Kratom and I'm too lazy to get into detail. Biologically a transgender person can be a male or female but a woman and a man are socially constructed.


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions]
    #21922932 - 07/10/15 01:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidVisions said:
but a woman and a man are socially constructed.




I'm really not trying to be an asshole, but to me, that doesn't make sense.

I agree that the words 'woman' and 'man' are constructed by humans, but those words are used to describe conditions that are not constructed by humans. Humans didn't invent the penis and vagina, or reproduction. We don't decide at birth whether we are male or female.

No hard feelings, just discussing. Love and respect to all the transgender people out there!!

edit: We CAN choose whether or not we identify as male or female, but unless there is some trans magic I'm not aware of, that doesn't change the physical condition that actually determines if we are male or female


Edited by FlyOnTheWall (07/10/15 02:04 AM)


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21922943 - 07/10/15 02:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

MALE
1
a :  a male person :  a man or a boy
b :  an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female

FEMALE
1
a (1) :  of, relating to, or being the sex that bears young or produces eggs (2) :

That doesn't mean that you have to produce eggs to be a female.

A person who is born female and doesn't produce eggs, is a female who doesn't produce eggs.

A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female, is not a female who doesn't produce eggs.

A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female, is a male who had cosmetic surgery to look like a female, or trans.

That's just the way I see things, though. Doesn't mean I am right. Just having a discussion people.

Have a good one, everybody.

LAST EDIT: WHATEVER YOU ARE, HOWEVER YOU LOOK, BE PROUD! FUCK THE HATERS. LIFE IS TOO SHORT.

If you disagree with what I say, just say 'fuck that guy' and don't let it get to you. Don't let other people determine your worth based on looks or other bullshit.

I wish a great day to all people across the gender spectrum


Edited by FlyOnTheWall (07/10/15 02:16 AM)


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Offlineteamkiller
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21922994 - 07/10/15 02:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think this is the first time a gender shit-thread on the shroomery has actually amused me and made me laugh.

This guy earnestly and as he assures us, without malice, has repeated like 4-5 times that a transgender person doesn't the genitalia of their gender...  Like they don't know that? 

Damn transgender people, always out to trick everyone all the time.  I hate when i meet a transgender person and they just saying "i have a vagina i have a vagina i have a vagina" when they don't.

(i know there are some people dumb to understand, so i'm going to explicitly state the 3rd paragraph is sarcasm, because I've never known a transgender person to try and trick anyone or lie about what parts they got).


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: teamkiller]
    #21923013 - 07/10/15 03:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

teamkiller said:
I think this is the first time a gender shit-thread on the shroomery has actually amused me and made me laugh.

This guy earnestly and as he assures us, without malice, has repeated like 4-5 times that a transgender person doesn't the genitalia of their gender...  Like they don't know that? 

Damn transgender people, always out to trick everyone all the time.  I hate when i meet a transgender person and they just saying "i have a vagina i have a vagina i have a vagina" when they don't.

(i know there are some people dumb to understand, so i'm going to explicitly state the 3rd paragraph is sarcasm, because I've never known a transgender person to try and trick anyone or lie about what parts they got).




Some of those sentences were a little hard to understand, but I'm glad I was able to amuse you and make you laugh!

If I offended you with my ignorance, I'm sorry for trying to be part of the discussion.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21923020 - 07/10/15 03:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The issue seems to be if gender is indeed a social construct or if it's a matter of the physical bits one is born with. I can sort of see your point if you view it as the latter, although that would still put Transgender people in a state of limbo - they aren't their original gender anymore, but neither are they their new gender - how would you view them? However, I prefer a combination of both; for me, it's about physical appearance (with or without the body modifications) combined with the gender someone wants themselves to be viewed as. If a transgender woman wants to be viewed as a woman, then so be it; for all intents and purposes, she's a woman in my eyes. Although I have to admit that in dating, I do skip the transgenders...so apparently at some point I also draw a line. Where does that put me?


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: koraks]
    #21923041 - 07/10/15 03:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

IMO, trans could be considered a third gender. Although, in my opinion, if we actually want to be accurate with our language, we need to go deeper than that. 

For instance, in my opinion, a male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female is exactly that. A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female. They are trans.

That is totally cool with me, I have no problem with it. I am happy to go along with them identifying as female, but until we change the definition of the word female, they are not actually a female. By definition, they are not a female.

I think that is an important distinction to make.

According to teamkilller, though, most trans people don't actually think they are the opposite sex. So I did not realize that. I thought that was the whole reason for transitioning in the first place.  It is all very confusing.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21923061 - 07/10/15 03:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That's the thing though: there are several possible definitions of male and female and they are sometsomesometimes in conflict. You make it seem like if there is one universal definition, but there isn't. That's the entire essence of gender as a social construct: it allows for dualism.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21923072 - 07/10/15 04:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

FlyOnTheWall said:
IMO, trans could be considered a third gender. Although, in my opinion, if we actually want to be accurate with our language, we need to go deeper than that. 

For instance, in my opinion, a male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female is exactly that. A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female. They are trans.

That is totally cool with me, I have no problem with it. I am happy to go along with them identifying as female, but until we change the definition of the word female, they are not actually a female. By definition, they are not a female.

I think that is an important distinction to make.

According to teamkilller, though, most trans people don't actually think they are the opposite sex. So I did not realize that. I thought that was the whole reason for transitioning in the first place.  It is all very confusing.




You're putting words into my fingers.  You went on and about "in physical reality there is this body piece or that body piece". You sound **redacted**. you think  trans people don't perceive the reality of their physical body?  Do you think transgender people generally lie about their physical body?

You're twisting something pretty simple in a bizarre shape.  If I was being polite, i'd say you're overthinking and have journeyed away from reality into your own navel.
If i was being less polite, i'd say you're a weasel constantly re-affirming you're totally cool with trans people and then playing semantic word games.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: teamkiller]
    #21923077 - 07/10/15 04:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

here is a good analogy.  I'm a short, pudgy, and have little muscle.

I want to be a mean muscle man., so I talk loudly and invade people's personal space.  I'm hostile in my speech.

Am I lying to myself about my body when i act that way, or am I being what i am?


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: teamkiller]
    #21923081 - 07/10/15 04:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
That's the thing though: there are several possible definitions of male and female and they are sometsomesometimes in conflict. You make it seem like if there is one universal definition, but there isn't. That's the entire essence of gender as a social construct: it allows for dualism.




Maybe not universal, but there is a pretty definite definition of the English words male and female, and that is the language we are speaking and writing in. I won't quote a bunch of English dictionaries, if you look at the definitions they are all pretty similar.

Yeah, I am confused by the whole matter. I won't say anymore because my opinion doesn't even matter and I know the fact that I don't understand just makes me seem like a bigot and an idiot. It's confusing as hell, though.


Quote:

teamkiller said:
Quote:

FlyOnTheWall said:
IMO, trans could be considered a third gender. Although, in my opinion, if we actually want to be accurate with our language, we need to go deeper than that. 

For instance, in my opinion, a male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female is exactly that. A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female. They are trans.

That is totally cool with me, I have no problem with it. I am happy to go along with them identifying as female, but until we change the definition of the word female, they are not actually a female. By definition, they are not a female.

I think that is an important distinction to make.

According to teamkilller, though, most trans people don't actually think they are the opposite sex. So I did not realize that. I thought that was the whole reason for transitioning in the first place.  It is all very confusing.




You're putting words into my fingers.  You went on and about "in physical reality there is this body piece or that body piece". You sound **redacted**. you think  trans people don't perceive the reality of their physical body?  Do you think transgender people generally lie about their physical body?

You're twisting something pretty simple in a bizarre shape.  If I was being polite, i'd say you're overthinking and have journeyed away from reality into your own navel.
If i was being less polite, i'd say you're a weasel constantly re-affirming you're totally cool with trans people and then playing semantic word games.





Sorry that I pissed you off teamkiller, I misunderstood you. My opinion is meaningless don't think about it anymore. Have a good one everybody.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21923116 - 07/10/15 05:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I understand what you mean to say with these definitions, but in matters where there is debate and a social discourse in full flux, I think it's wise to look beyond definitions that have been quite unchanged for centuries.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: koraks]
    #21925784 - 07/10/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well a biological male and a biological female is different from a man and a woman which are the social constructs. Men in western societies are tough and hot headed. They have beards and smoke tobacco. Women paint there face and are merely sex objects. Some cultures have different definitions of what a man and a woman are. That just goes to show that gender roles don't exists. Even the term gender rolls show that they don't exist. It's as if gender is some role we play some act we put on.  Biological sex exists and is definitely a reality but gender rolls are just made up.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions] * 1
    #21925846 - 07/10/15 07:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidVisions said:
Well a biological male and a biological female is different from a man and a woman which are the social constructs. Men in western societies are tough and hot headed. They have beards and smoke tobacco. Women paint there face and are merely sex objects. Some cultures have different definitions of what a man and a woman are. That just goes to show that gender roles don't exists. Even the term gender rolls show that they don't exist. It's as if gender is some role we play some act we put on.  Biological sex exists and is definitely a reality but gender rolls are just made up.




I don't really follow your argument at all. You describe these roles filled by men and women in different cultures, and then you go on to say that the roles for men and women that you just described don't exist.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: psi]
    #21925933 - 07/10/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LiquidVisions said:
Well a biological male and a biological female is different from a man and a woman which are the social constructs. Men in western societies are tough and hot headed. They have beards and smoke tobacco. Women paint there face and are merely sex objects. Some cultures have different definitions of what a man and a woman are. That just goes to show that gender roles don't exists. Even the term gender rolls show that they don't exist. It's as if gender is some role we play some act we put on.  Biological sex exists and is definitely a reality but gender rolls are just made up.




I don't really follow your argument at all. You describe these roles filled by men and women in different cultures, and then you go on to say that the roles for men and women that you just described don't exist.





Thank you. This is exactly where I get lost, too.

So apparently, gender roles don't really exist, but apparently they also do exist, and apparently some people feel very restricted by their existence, even though they don't exist.

Got it.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21925991 - 07/10/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I'm not sure if it's a language issue or what but there is a jump somewhere in there that I'm not following.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: psi] * 1
    #21927236 - 07/11/15 03:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I've been typing my argument in a rush mostly but what I am saying is that although they are roles that people follow they have been created by humans and programmed into people based on their sex. The idea of what a man should act/look like is totally made up and the sawn goes with a woman. The role of a man is assigned to a male while the role of a woman is assigned to a female. So it may exist but it's really a product of society.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions]
    #21927295 - 07/11/15 03:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Then it is still a thing to be reckoned with! And it also suggests that it can be more fluid than biological sex. All the more reason for me to give people who need it a little leeway.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions]
    #21927907 - 07/11/15 08:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidVisions said:
I've been typing my argument in a rush mostly but what I am saying is that although they are roles that people follow they have been created by humans and programmed into people based on their sex. The idea of what a man should act/look like is totally made up and the sawn goes with a woman. The role of a man is assigned to a male while the role of a woman is assigned to a female. So it may exist but it's really a product of society.





OK, now I gotcha. I thought that was the kind of conclusion your arguments were pointing to, just couldn't figure out where the "the roles themselves don't exist" part was coming in.


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