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LiquidVisions
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Detached]
#21922843 - 07/10/15 12:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Gender is socially constructed. Society created what a woman should look like and what a man should look like. Therefore the fact that a woman shaves her legs and paints her face is pretty strange by itself and if a man were to do it it would be unusual in the eyes of society but in reality its just as strange as a female doing it.
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FlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions]
#21922907 - 07/10/15 01:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So whether a person shaves their legs or wears make-up is how we determine if someone is a woman or not nowadays?...
To me, the clothes you wear, the make up you wear, the way you talk, the name you use, etc., none of that means anything at all.
To me, what determines whether you are male or female, is your chromosomes, you penis or vagina, your ovaries or testes, etc.
Yes, there are intersex people. No, that doesn't blur the line between male and female for other people who are very definitely either male or female.
I got love and respect for all trans people, and I am happy to call people by their preferred name or gender.
I will never be able to convince myself that calling a person by a different name has any bearing on reality, though. That complete goes against all logic. IMO, a person who is born male and transitions to a female, is a trans person.
They are not female. IMO, their gender is still male, or 3rd gender, transgender. I will happily call them by a female name, and say she, but that doesn't make them a female...I'm not hating, that just seems like...it doesn't make any sense....
I'm sorry if I'm offending anybody, but hopefully you can have patience with those of us who have a little trouble wrapping our heads around how it all works.
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LiquidVisions
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
#21922922 - 07/10/15 01:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Not just shaved legs and makeup but you see where I'm getting at. I'm on a lot of Kratom and I'm too lazy to get into detail. Biologically a transgender person can be a male or female but a woman and a man are socially constructed.
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FlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions]
#21922932 - 07/10/15 01:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidVisions said: but a woman and a man are socially constructed.
I'm really not trying to be an asshole, but to me, that doesn't make sense.
I agree that the words 'woman' and 'man' are constructed by humans, but those words are used to describe conditions that are not constructed by humans. Humans didn't invent the penis and vagina, or reproduction. We don't decide at birth whether we are male or female.
No hard feelings, just discussing. Love and respect to all the transgender people out there!!
edit: We CAN choose whether or not we identify as male or female, but unless there is some trans magic I'm not aware of, that doesn't change the physical condition that actually determines if we are male or female
Edited by FlyOnTheWall (07/10/15 02:04 AM)
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FlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
#21922943 - 07/10/15 02:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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MALE 1 a : a male person : a man or a boy b : an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female
FEMALE 1 a (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that bears young or produces eggs (2) :
That doesn't mean that you have to produce eggs to be a female.
A person who is born female and doesn't produce eggs, is a female who doesn't produce eggs.
A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female, is not a female who doesn't produce eggs.
A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female, is a male who had cosmetic surgery to look like a female, or trans.
That's just the way I see things, though. Doesn't mean I am right. Just having a discussion people.
Have a good one, everybody.
LAST EDIT: WHATEVER YOU ARE, HOWEVER YOU LOOK, BE PROUD! FUCK THE HATERS. LIFE IS TOO SHORT.
If you disagree with what I say, just say 'fuck that guy' and don't let it get to you. Don't let other people determine your worth based on looks or other bullshit.
I wish a great day to all people across the gender spectrum
Edited by FlyOnTheWall (07/10/15 02:16 AM)
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teamkiller
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
#21922994 - 07/10/15 02:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think this is the first time a gender shit-thread on the shroomery has actually amused me and made me laugh.
This guy earnestly and as he assures us, without malice, has repeated like 4-5 times that a transgender person doesn't the genitalia of their gender... Like they don't know that?
Damn transgender people, always out to trick everyone all the time. I hate when i meet a transgender person and they just saying "i have a vagina i have a vagina i have a vagina" when they don't.
(i know there are some people dumb to understand, so i'm going to explicitly state the 3rd paragraph is sarcasm, because I've never known a transgender person to try and trick anyone or lie about what parts they got).
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FlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: teamkiller]
#21923013 - 07/10/15 03:12 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
teamkiller said: I think this is the first time a gender shit-thread on the shroomery has actually amused me and made me laugh.
This guy earnestly and as he assures us, without malice, has repeated like 4-5 times that a transgender person doesn't the genitalia of their gender... Like they don't know that?
Damn transgender people, always out to trick everyone all the time. I hate when i meet a transgender person and they just saying "i have a vagina i have a vagina i have a vagina" when they don't.
(i know there are some people dumb to understand, so i'm going to explicitly state the 3rd paragraph is sarcasm, because I've never known a transgender person to try and trick anyone or lie about what parts they got).
Some of those sentences were a little hard to understand, but I'm glad I was able to amuse you and make you laugh!
If I offended you with my ignorance, I'm sorry for trying to be part of the discussion.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
#21923020 - 07/10/15 03:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The issue seems to be if gender is indeed a social construct or if it's a matter of the physical bits one is born with. I can sort of see your point if you view it as the latter, although that would still put Transgender people in a state of limbo - they aren't their original gender anymore, but neither are they their new gender - how would you view them? However, I prefer a combination of both; for me, it's about physical appearance (with or without the body modifications) combined with the gender someone wants themselves to be viewed as. If a transgender woman wants to be viewed as a woman, then so be it; for all intents and purposes, she's a woman in my eyes. Although I have to admit that in dating, I do skip the transgenders...so apparently at some point I also draw a line. Where does that put me?
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FlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: koraks]
#21923041 - 07/10/15 03:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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IMO, trans could be considered a third gender. Although, in my opinion, if we actually want to be accurate with our language, we need to go deeper than that.
For instance, in my opinion, a male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female is exactly that. A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female. They are trans.
That is totally cool with me, I have no problem with it. I am happy to go along with them identifying as female, but until we change the definition of the word female, they are not actually a female. By definition, they are not a female.
I think that is an important distinction to make.
According to teamkilller, though, most trans people don't actually think they are the opposite sex. So I did not realize that. I thought that was the whole reason for transitioning in the first place. It is all very confusing.
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koraks
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
#21923061 - 07/10/15 03:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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That's the thing though: there are several possible definitions of male and female and they are sometsomesometimes in conflict. You make it seem like if there is one universal definition, but there isn't. That's the entire essence of gender as a social construct: it allows for dualism.
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teamkiller
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
#21923072 - 07/10/15 04:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
FlyOnTheWall said: IMO, trans could be considered a third gender. Although, in my opinion, if we actually want to be accurate with our language, we need to go deeper than that.
For instance, in my opinion, a male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female is exactly that. A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female. They are trans.
That is totally cool with me, I have no problem with it. I am happy to go along with them identifying as female, but until we change the definition of the word female, they are not actually a female. By definition, they are not a female.
I think that is an important distinction to make.
According to teamkilller, though, most trans people don't actually think they are the opposite sex. So I did not realize that. I thought that was the whole reason for transitioning in the first place. It is all very confusing.
You're putting words into my fingers. You went on and about "in physical reality there is this body piece or that body piece". You sound **redacted**. you think trans people don't perceive the reality of their physical body? Do you think transgender people generally lie about their physical body?
You're twisting something pretty simple in a bizarre shape. If I was being polite, i'd say you're overthinking and have journeyed away from reality into your own navel. If i was being less polite, i'd say you're a weasel constantly re-affirming you're totally cool with trans people and then playing semantic word games.
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teamkiller
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: teamkiller]
#21923077 - 07/10/15 04:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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here is a good analogy. I'm a short, pudgy, and have little muscle.
I want to be a mean muscle man., so I talk loudly and invade people's personal space. I'm hostile in my speech.
Am I lying to myself about my body when i act that way, or am I being what i am?
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FlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: teamkiller]
#21923081 - 07/10/15 04:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said: That's the thing though: there are several possible definitions of male and female and they are sometsomesometimes in conflict. You make it seem like if there is one universal definition, but there isn't. That's the entire essence of gender as a social construct: it allows for dualism.
Maybe not universal, but there is a pretty definite definition of the English words male and female, and that is the language we are speaking and writing in. I won't quote a bunch of English dictionaries, if you look at the definitions they are all pretty similar.
Yeah, I am confused by the whole matter. I won't say anymore because my opinion doesn't even matter and I know the fact that I don't understand just makes me seem like a bigot and an idiot. It's confusing as hell, though.
Quote:
teamkiller said:
Quote:
FlyOnTheWall said: IMO, trans could be considered a third gender. Although, in my opinion, if we actually want to be accurate with our language, we need to go deeper than that.
For instance, in my opinion, a male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female is exactly that. A male who has cosmetic surgery to look like a female. They are trans.
That is totally cool with me, I have no problem with it. I am happy to go along with them identifying as female, but until we change the definition of the word female, they are not actually a female. By definition, they are not a female.
I think that is an important distinction to make.
According to teamkilller, though, most trans people don't actually think they are the opposite sex. So I did not realize that. I thought that was the whole reason for transitioning in the first place. It is all very confusing.
You're putting words into my fingers. You went on and about "in physical reality there is this body piece or that body piece". You sound **redacted**. you think trans people don't perceive the reality of their physical body? Do you think transgender people generally lie about their physical body?
You're twisting something pretty simple in a bizarre shape. If I was being polite, i'd say you're overthinking and have journeyed away from reality into your own navel. If i was being less polite, i'd say you're a weasel constantly re-affirming you're totally cool with trans people and then playing semantic word games.
Sorry that I pissed you off teamkiller, I misunderstood you. My opinion is meaningless don't think about it anymore. Have a good one everybody.
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koraks
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
#21923116 - 07/10/15 05:03 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I understand what you mean to say with these definitions, but in matters where there is debate and a social discourse in full flux, I think it's wise to look beyond definitions that have been quite unchanged for centuries.
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LiquidVisions
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: koraks]
#21925784 - 07/10/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well a biological male and a biological female is different from a man and a woman which are the social constructs. Men in western societies are tough and hot headed. They have beards and smoke tobacco. Women paint there face and are merely sex objects. Some cultures have different definitions of what a man and a woman are. That just goes to show that gender roles don't exists. Even the term gender rolls show that they don't exist. It's as if gender is some role we play some act we put on. Biological sex exists and is definitely a reality but gender rolls are just made up.
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psi
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions] 1
#21925846 - 07/10/15 07:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidVisions said: Well a biological male and a biological female is different from a man and a woman which are the social constructs. Men in western societies are tough and hot headed. They have beards and smoke tobacco. Women paint there face and are merely sex objects. Some cultures have different definitions of what a man and a woman are. That just goes to show that gender roles don't exists. Even the term gender rolls show that they don't exist. It's as if gender is some role we play some act we put on. Biological sex exists and is definitely a reality but gender rolls are just made up.
I don't really follow your argument at all. You describe these roles filled by men and women in different cultures, and then you go on to say that the roles for men and women that you just described don't exist.
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FlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: psi]
#21925933 - 07/10/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
psi said:
Quote:
LiquidVisions said: Well a biological male and a biological female is different from a man and a woman which are the social constructs. Men in western societies are tough and hot headed. They have beards and smoke tobacco. Women paint there face and are merely sex objects. Some cultures have different definitions of what a man and a woman are. That just goes to show that gender roles don't exists. Even the term gender rolls show that they don't exist. It's as if gender is some role we play some act we put on. Biological sex exists and is definitely a reality but gender rolls are just made up.
I don't really follow your argument at all. You describe these roles filled by men and women in different cultures, and then you go on to say that the roles for men and women that you just described don't exist.
Thank you. This is exactly where I get lost, too.
So apparently, gender roles don't really exist, but apparently they also do exist, and apparently some people feel very restricted by their existence, even though they don't exist.
Got it.
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psi
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
#21925991 - 07/10/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah I'm not sure if it's a language issue or what but there is a jump somewhere in there that I'm not following.
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LiquidVisions
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: psi] 1
#21927236 - 07/11/15 03:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've been typing my argument in a rush mostly but what I am saying is that although they are roles that people follow they have been created by humans and programmed into people based on their sex. The idea of what a man should act/look like is totally made up and the sawn goes with a woman. The role of a man is assigned to a male while the role of a woman is assigned to a female. So it may exist but it's really a product of society.
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koraks
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: LiquidVisions]
#21927295 - 07/11/15 03:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Then it is still a thing to be reckoned with! And it also suggests that it can be more fluid than biological sex. All the more reason for me to give people who need it a little leeway.
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