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OfflineShining Cosmos
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Gorlax]
    #21917664 - 07/09/15 12:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I think societal conditioning is the biggest factor.


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Offlineoccollegeboi
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Shining Cosmos] * 1
    #21917711 - 07/09/15 12:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Penis vagina


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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: occollegeboi]
    #21917949 - 07/09/15 03:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I identify somewhere in between with a bias towards female.

Anyway, gender is an extremely powerful social construct,
I find it kind of weird you need to ask what makes a man in society and what makes a woman. No one is completely 100% either, but in western society it is pretty clear what people what to be labeled as. There has been gender for a long time in the Play of Life, but the costumes and script changes through out the ages.


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou] * 1
    #21917981 - 07/09/15 03:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

In my opinion, what makes a boy a boy and a girl a girl, is whether they were obviously born one way or the other.

I know there are cases where people have birth defects and they have male and female organs, and I absolutely believe those people should have the right to choose how they want to identify.

I can't take people like Bruce Jenner seriously, though. Excuse me, Caitlyn Jenner. If somebody tells me they want to identify as a different gender, I have no problem with that.

If I knew Caitlyn Jenner, I would be happy to call him/her Caitlyn. The simple fact of the matter, though, is that Caitlyn Jenner is not a woman.

Caitlyn Jenner is a man who has altered his body to appear to look more like a woman.
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who wears clothes that would normally be worn by women.
Caitlyn Jenner is man who changed his/her name from Bruce, to a name which is normally used by females, Caitlyn.

This does not make him/her a woman.

There is a good New York Times article that makes some great points.

Quote:

People who haven’t lived their whole lives as women, whether Ms. Jenner or Mr. Summers, shouldn’t get to define us. That’s something men have been doing for much too long. And as much as I recognize and endorse the right of men to throw off the mantle of maleness, they cannot stake their claim to dignity as transgender people by trampling on mine as a woman.




The fact that he thinks he has the power to change that by paying a bunch of money and having some procedures, is a good example of out of control male privilege.

While we are on the easy questions-Rachel Dolezal is not black. She is white. Same situation. If she wants to 'identify' as a black person, by all means, go for it. However, that still doesn't change the fact that she is a white person, with white parents.


Edited by FlyOnTheWall (07/09/15 03:43 AM)


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21918007 - 07/09/15 04:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

FlyOnTheWall said:
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who has altered his body to appear to look more like a woman.
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who wears clothes that would normally be worn by women.
Caitlyn Jenner is man who changed his/her name from Bruce, to a name which is normally used by females, Caitlyn.

This does not make him/her a woman.




This is a sentiment that many transgenders run into and are bothered by. I can sort of see both sides of the argument though. But I lean towards the side of the transgender in this instance: if they feel they were born in the wrong body and they want to be regarded as the opposite sex from which they originally had the physical properties, then I'd say that's their choice and for the rest of society to respect. On the other hand, if elements of that society can't or won't accept this, then that's something to take into account as well. In some cases, you can't make everyone happy. But personally, I would be cautious in approaching a matter that may be only mildly relevant to you, but that's a deeply-rooted source of personal doubts and fear for the people you talk about. Mind you, I'm not judging you, but I would recommend trying to appreciate how deeply transgenders or gender-conflicted people feel about this. It's an essential part of their being and I see no reason for not accommodating them in their quest for peace with who they are.


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: koraks]
    #21918045 - 07/09/15 04:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

FlyOnTheWall said:
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who has altered his body to appear to look more like a woman.
Caitlyn Jenner is a man who wears clothes that would normally be worn by women.
Caitlyn Jenner is man who changed his/her name from Bruce, to a name which is normally used by females, Caitlyn.

This does not make him/her a woman.




This is a sentiment that many transgenders run into and are bothered by. I can sort of see both sides of the argument though. But I lean towards the side of the transgender in this instance: if they feel they were born in the wrong body and they want to be regarded as the opposite sex from which they originally had the physical properties, then I'd say that's their choice and for the rest of society to respect. On the other hand, if elements of that society can't or won't accept this, then that's something to take into account as well. In some cases, you can't make everyone happy. But personally, I would be cautious in approaching a matter that may be only mildly relevant to you, but that's a deeply-rooted source of personal doubts and fear for the people you talk about. Mind you, I'm not judging you, but I would recommend trying to appreciate how deeply transgenders or gender-conflicted people feel about this. It's an essential part of their being and I see no reason for not accommodating them in their quest for peace with who they are.




I hear ya, man. I would never say that to a transgender person.
IMO that would be wrong. IMO it would be similar to making fun of a handicapped or mentally ill person.

If a person thinks they can achieve real happiness by physically looking a certain way, they are most likely beyond help.

I am definitely more than happy to accommodate their (IMO) fantasy, though.
If I decided I wanted to identify as Elvis Presley, I would expect them to do the same.
That might sound sarcastic, but I am being totally serious. In real life, I would absolutely call a person by their chosen name/gender/race whatever.
The important thing to remember, though, is that in reality this doesn't change anything.

We live in a shared reality and in my opinion, it is pretty essential that we all act and base our lives on that shared reality.

I would be perfectly willing to pretend like Caitlyn Jenner was a woman, but even if everybody in the world calls her Caitlyn, and uses 'she' instead of 'he', it still doesn't change the reality of the situation, which is that Caitlyn is not a female.

I don't mean to sound like I have no sympathy for people who are struggling those feelings. I feel really sorry for them. That has to be brutal to go through.
My feeling sorry for them doesn't change the reality of the situation, though. The fact that transgender people feel sad sometimes doesn't change the situation, either.
Think about people in wheelchairs. They probably feel pretty damn sad really often. It is totally fucked up. I feel really sorry for them. I'm sure they wish they could just decide to not be handicapped.
People around them could even play along, and pretend the handicapped person isn't handicapped. They may believe that their 'soul' is not handicapped. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they are no longer handicapped.

There are facts of life we just cannot change. Whether this makes us miserable doesn't make any difference. Whether it makes us want to commit suicide doesn't make any difference. It's unfortunate, but that is the nature of reality.
There are also things in life we are going to not enjoy. People are always going to not like certain parts of their bodies, the families they were born into, etc. But unfortunately, not liking something, doesn't change the way things are.

edit: It really is a shame the world doesn't work like that, though. In my soul, I feel like I am at least 6 feet 5 inches tall. I think I would be so much happier if I wasn't short :lol:


Edited by FlyOnTheWall (07/09/15 04:58 AM)


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: FlyOnTheWall]
    #21918074 - 07/09/15 05:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Just so people know I am not a bigot, I want to add that I totally support gay marriage.

Gay marriage is a good example of something we DO have control over. The idea of marriage is something humans created, so humans are also in a position to decide whether marriage is between man and woman, man and man, or woman and woman.

We can make marriage anything we want, because marriage doesn't really exist. It is just a human made idea.

The same cannot be said for male and female.
Male and female are not social constructs.
Male and female are words created by humans, to describe physical conditions in reality which we have no control over.

Again, it is of course true that there are people who have both male and female sex organs. However, that does not blur the line for other people who are very definitely one way or the other.


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OfflineIhateyou
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Registered: 03/29/15
Posts: 568
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #21920018 - 07/09/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
I was raised by 3 sisters. I was dressed up as a girl, forced to learn stupid dances, and played with girl toys. I didnt like it, even at that young age. I still had a blast, but I also preferred karate movies, monster trucks, and cowboy boots. I dont recall anybody ever telling me I should like those things over the others...I just did :shrug:



I wasn't saying that the way you are brought up influences what you'll like. I was saying that regardless of what you like since nothing that someone likes defines their gender liking the girl stuff wouldn't make you trans.


What BlindSophist said is the most interesting answer I've seen(haven't read them all yet) but even in that case I'm still not understanding what gender identity is or where it comes from.


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InvisibleGovam
Stranger
Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 94
Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou] * 3
    #21920792 - 07/09/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You're born biologically male or female, sorry. There are certain hormonal errors, endocrine dysfunctions and birth defects that can change what you have physically. Anything beyond that is just a mental disturbance or conditioning by vegged out parents.

You can't alter your biology with cosmetic surgery, and even with hormone treatments you might as well kill yourself. Hope for your preferred chromosomes next go-round. Neither of these "solutions" focus on the real underlying mental disorder. Even if you want to talk in new age terms, there is obviously a miscommunication between your ascended self, your conscious mind and what's between your legs.

I always want to ask these people if they enjoy picking seeds out of their weed. They can't be smoking feminized strains, gender is a social construct after all.


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OfflineThatKidWithTheFace
R.I.P. ZIG R.I.P. Sloth
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Registered: 09/30/12
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Govam]
    #21920796 - 07/09/15 04:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
Check Out My Beats
SoundCloud

[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
u bet ur ass it is.[/quote]


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OfflineGorlax
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Registered: 05/06/08
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21920817 - 07/09/15 04:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well in Taosim and Buddhism your suppose to have masculine and feminine traits. That's the ying and yang shit. Doesn't mean your suppose to be one side of the yin only... so says those religions.


Hey I don't care do what you want just don't make it so we have to change our laws as if it were some handicap. Soon enough trans people will be getting handicap parking spots.


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InvisibleThe Doobie Dude


Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 13,498
Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Gorlax] * 1
    #21920843 - 07/09/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Put a man in a room with no stimuli of anything.  He will grow up and have a higher sex drive then a woman, he will be competitive these are undeniable traits of testosterone.


--------------------

"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head.  If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.


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InvisibleThe Doobie Dude


Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 13,498
Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21920850 - 07/09/15 04:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

gender identity is real.  you konw what made the media people you know what the media does sells thinks to people based on what they like.  guys like certain things and girls like certain things.  boo hoo get over it


--------------------

"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head.  If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.


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OfflineFlyOnTheWall
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Govam]
    #21920866 - 07/09/15 05:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Govam said:
Neither of these "solutions" focus on the real underlying mental disorder




This. It is a mental disorder. It can also just be a fetish. It depends on how far the person takes it.


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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21921100 - 07/09/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Doobie Dude said:
gender identity is real.  you konw what made the media people you know what the media does sells thinks to people based on what they like.  guys like certain things and girls like certain things.  boo hoo get over it



Both sexes like things for both genders.

You must be really high right now because your sentences don't make sense and that's no insult. I'm just looking at what your mood says.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Govam]
    #21921335 - 07/09/15 06:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Govam said:
You're born biologically male or female, sorry. There are certain hormonal errors, endocrine dysfunctions and birth defects that can change what you have physically. Anything beyond that is just a mental disturbance or conditioning by vegged out parents.

You can't alter your biology with cosmetic surgery, and even with hormone treatments you might as well kill yourself. Hope for your preferred chromosomes next go-round. Neither of these "solutions" focus on the real underlying mental disorder. Even if you want to talk in new age terms, there is obviously a miscommunication between your ascended self, your conscious mind and what's between your legs.

I always want to ask these people if they enjoy picking seeds out of their weed. They can't be smoking feminized strains, gender is a social construct after all.




Approaches which focus on "the underlying mental disorder" do more harm than good. Conversion "therapy" is inhumane and results in a mutilation of the person at best, but quite often results in trauma and sometimes suicide.

I'm kind of surprised how little familiarity people have with this issue and its victims-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Leelah_Alcorn

In fact, trans people are happy and healthy when they are allowed to live in their identified gender. The mental disorder-- gender dysphoria-- occurs when this is not possible. Furthermore, sex reassignment through hormone therapy and genital surgery is not "cosmetic".

You're new here, so you'd do well to know we have quite a few trans members on the Shroomery, myself included. I don't appreciate being told to kill myself. IMHO you are off to a bad start here.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/09/15 07:01 PM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Shining Cosmos]
    #21921344 - 07/09/15 06:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shining Cosmos said:
I think societal conditioning is the biggest factor.




Societal condition determines how a gender is expressed, but gender identity is innate. I was saying this earlier in the thread. You are born either male- or female-identified (or, rarely, somewhere in between) and then your expression of your gender depends on how you are taught to express that gender by your culture and upbringing.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineThatKidWithTheFace
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21921396 - 07/09/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:rolleyes:


--------------------
Check Out My Beats
SoundCloud

[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
u bet ur ass it is.[/quote]


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InvisibleMalcolm_Xtasy
Oh baby what Is you doin??
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Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 13,851
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #21921415 - 07/09/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What part of that do you disagree with? She seems pretty spot on to me :shrug:


--------------------
I'm stupid, Enlil is smart.
I'm ugly, Enlil is beautiful.
I'm a loser, Enlil is a winner.
Someday, I hope to be like Enlil but secretly know I never will.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21921424 - 07/09/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Have you ever read Middlesex by Eugenides?


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