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Ihateyou
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I don't think gender identity is real 4
#21915930 - 07/08/15 04:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.
Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?
If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?
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Mescalean
Burke is love, burke is life.


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou]
#21915957 - 07/08/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think it's real, I'm just more curious as to physiologically why it is a phenomenon in the human psyche
-------------------- FREE BURKE
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Ihateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Mescalean]
#21915973 - 07/08/15 05:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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What makes you think it's real? If it's real what makes a boy a boy or a girl a girl or a trans person a trans person? If it's not the sex or the way they conduct themselves then what is it? I used to think it was real but since I can't answer that question myself I think there's no reason to believe in gender identity.
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Jamo


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Mescalean]
#21915984 - 07/08/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The reason for the occurence of the phenomenon in the human psyche might just be the possibility of it being processed given the complexity of the human brain.
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Malcolm_Xtasy
Oh baby what Is you doin??



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou] 5
#21916019 - 07/08/15 05:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ihateyou said: If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.
Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?
If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?
What the fuck are you talking about?
-------------------- I'm stupid, Enlil is smart. I'm ugly, Enlil is beautiful. I'm a loser, Enlil is a winner. Someday, I hope to be like Enlil but secretly know I never will.
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Ihateyou
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Malcolm_Xtasy]
#21916032 - 07/08/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Malcolm_Xtasy said:
Quote:
Ihateyou said: If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.
Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?
If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?
What the fuck are you talking about?
What the fuck makes a person a boy a boy or a girl a girl?
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells



Registered: 05/01/02
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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou] 6
#21916052 - 07/08/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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This is one of those questions like "what would life be like if hands didnt exist?"
If a child were in complete isolation, away from media or societal influences, would he/she behave or dress any differently? Given a broad wardrobe, would he/she feel more comfortable wearing one style over another? Given a set of animal costumes, would he/she identify themselves as an ape and wear an ape costume every day?
Fact of the matter is theres no definitive answer because these are all hypothetical scenarios.
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Ihateyou
Stranger

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Quote:
I_was_the_walrus said: This is one of those questions like "what would life be like if hands didnt exist?"
If a child were in complete isolation, away from media or societal influences, would he/she behave or dress any differently? Given a broad wardrobe, would he/she feel more comfortable wearing one style over another? Given a set of animal costumes, would he/she identify themselves as an ape and wear an ape costume every day?
Fact of the matter is theres no definitive answer because these are all hypothetical scenarios.
But if he did dress and act differently would that make him a girl? The idea that girls act and dress a certain way is frowned upon and understandably so. Girls don't always act girly so why does the way someone acts and dresses make them a girl or boy?
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Hippocampus



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou]
#21916121 - 07/08/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Humans have big ass brains and a lot can go "wrong" (not that I think people who identify as a different gender than their birth sex are wrong. I'm just using that word to indicate that many things, not just gender identity, are complicated for humans as compared to non-human animals because of our larger brains).
I wonder if there has ever been non-human animals that identify as the opposite gender.
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Achillita
Back to the basics



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Hippocampus]
#21916191 - 07/08/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wouldn't doubt it, but just humans try to classify one sex as doing something that is gender specific. All girls don't wear dresses, just like all guys don't play sports.
It's just how a society classifies it all. But as society has been progressing, we are slowly blurring the lines of certain activities. But gender identity can also be changed by the chemicals in your body. THere was an "experiment" where a young boys penis was severely mutilated during circumcision, so they decide to cut it all off and raise him as a girl. He had deep psychological issues about his gender. He eventually killed himself at the age of 20. I can't remember the name of it though.
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Achillita] 1
#21916266 - 07/08/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I believe the subconscious need to present one's self uniquely goes way back. Even in the animal kingdom, the two genders have big colorful displays that have become a necessity for attraction and mating. Neanderthals had gender specific roles, and this dates back hundreds of thousands of years. So somebody might say "Well we're beyond that now. There doesnt exist a need for gender specific displays outside of societal aesthetics", and you're absolutely right. Does that mean its just going to disappear? Nope.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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I identify as male.
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Hippocampus



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Achillita]
#21916281 - 07/08/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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This study is from 2004, but the summary suggests the authors believe gender identity is linked to hormones before birth, and not cultural factors. Interesting
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09513590400018231
This study seems to think the same thing. At least admitting that there was not current evidence for social environmental factors in gender identity. Although, cognitive gender identity happens in early development, the gender is already permanently programmed into the fetal brain.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302211000252
I have no idea what this all means.
But it seems that gender is truly a cultural definition which has changed over time, and in different circles. I am science minded and tend to look at the concrete biological definitions of "male", and "female". But these definitions are completely lacking in a human social context. But to answer OP, I think that although socially "gender" is apt to change definitions, that does not somehow make any of those definitions somehow not real. they have real implications to the culture that adopts them, and are as real as any other social construct.
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blewmeanie



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Ihateyou]
#21916317 - 07/08/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ihateyou said: If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.
Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?
If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?
Gender identity isn't something tangible. It's not what you are, but you're belief about what you are. It's your sense of self, and not the self itself. Gender or sex is most certainly real, and it can be observed in every organism that reproduces through sex. Even flowers. Sexual dimorphism isn't just limited to anatomy, it also includes behavior. The thinking is that dimorphism is the inevitable result of sexual selection played out over time, with sexual characteristics coalescing into the two dominant trends.
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: zappaisgod] 5
#21916318 - 07/08/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I identify as male.
You post like a girl
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: blewmeanie]
#21916343 - 07/08/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
Quote:
Ihateyou said: If gender identity is real, then why do women and men get mad when people assume they are going to do something that is seen as masculine or feminine.
Here's an example. If a girl dresses in clothes usually worn by men, plays sports like baseball and basketball, or basically goes against the tradition of the female gender she will be seen as boyish . Now, a lot of people will say that kind of thinking is sexist. I agree but if that's the case what makes up someone's gender identity?
If their sex makes them male or female, and what society sees as traditional gender roles should be considered gender neutral( like certain clothes, jobs, ways people conduct themselves, and sports), then what makes a person's gender different from their sex?
Gender identity isn't something tangible. It's not what you are, but you're belief about what you are. It's your sense of self, and not the self itself. Gender or sex is most certainly real, and it can be observed in every organism that reproduces through sex. Even flowers. Sexual dimorphism isn't just limited to anatomy, it also includes behavior. The thinking is that dimorphism is the inevitable result of sexual selection played out over time, with sexual characteristics coalescing into the two dominant trends.

OP, gender norms are learned, but gender itself is innate. Essentially, you are born male or female, and then you grow and learn along lines which are partially separated into "male" and "female" paths... i.e. a trans person would be trans in any society but their development in their identified gender would reflect the gender norms of the culture in which they are raised.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Quote:
I_was_the_walrus said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I identify as male.
You post like a girl
I'm gonna punch you in the pants. How dare you challenge my gender identity, you fascist.
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Gorlax



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: zappaisgod]
#21916693 - 07/08/15 08:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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We dress based on how we are socially brought up. If a boy was born in isolation and they played TV shows where the men were dressing in womens clothes. Then that boy would dress in womens clothes. The introduction into something at a young age is what generally shapes someone mentally. When a child is growing up you are going to buy your son the boy toys because why the fuck would you not. Maybe trans people played with girl toys too much.
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells



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Re: I don't think gender identity is real [Re: Gorlax] 2
#21916777 - 07/08/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was raised by 3 sisters. I was dressed up as a girl, forced to learn stupid dances, and played with girl toys. I didnt like it, even at that young age. I still had a blast, but I also preferred karate movies, monster trucks, and cowboy boots. I dont recall anybody ever telling me I should like those things over the others...I just did
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Gorlax



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because you mimic what's expected. The same way you learn to speak.
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