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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: qman]
    #21914568 - 07/08/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:


"Because gold needs FEAR to go up"

You showing ignorance now, gold needs inflation, nothing more.

"all the money pumped into the global system"

That's a myth my friend, please explain to us how the Fed buying $2.5 trillion of MBS's is pumping money into the system, it isn't. 

It's not about buying a few bonds by CB's, it's about money velocity which continues to decline.




Are you suggesting that equities, bonds and real estate prices have not been majorly inflated by the Fed's ZIRP policy along with Japan and europe playing too?  Seriously?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlinekoods
Ribbit
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,059
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 13 minutes, 15 seconds
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: qman]
    #21914569 - 07/08/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Let's turn useful industrial commodities into currency. brilliant. :facepalm:


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: qman]
    #21914571 - 07/08/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There's a reason rich libertarians such as the Koch brothers support commodity based currency, they can literally do nothing and make money.

We already went through this as a country and it's a major reason we moved away from the gold standard.

http://www.rense.com/general94/hidden.htm

http://www.businessinsider.com/americas-robber-barons-2012-3


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: koods]
    #21914574 - 07/08/15 11:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Let's turn useful industrial commodities into currency. brilliant. :facepalm:




EXACTLY!  It's absolutely the second dumbest possible idea.  The first being to peg it to food commodities that then get warehoused and vaulted for speculation.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21914576 - 07/08/15 11:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

"It is an incredibly fair system"

In theory it should be, but what if China and others manipulate its currency lower, not so far anymore!

"way to dangerous to peg the dollar or global currency to it"

Gold is nothing more than a very powerful tool for central bankers if needed, there's nothing dangerous about it.




So you don't think investors moving billions around in currencies aren't watching China like a hawk?  Don't they pay a price for that manipulation?  That's why trading systems are fair.  It allows buyers and sellers to come to terms with pricing.  Pegging the dollar to gold will create enormous demand for gold/silver and that will drive the price of it way up.  Of what value to anyone would that be?




The traders all know that the US and China are cooperating with this manipulation, it gets the rich even richer, they love it.

Why do you think China owns trillions of US dollars/debt?  It's not for investment, it's for a weak Yuan.

I'm not saying pegging the UD dollar to gold is the right thing to do today, but it's a tool that might be used down the road.

When the US has $30 trillion of debt someday, what would you purpose?  Pay it off.  :lol:


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21914589 - 07/08/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:


"Because gold needs FEAR to go up"

You showing ignorance now, gold needs inflation, nothing more.

"all the money pumped into the global system"

That's a myth my friend, please explain to us how the Fed buying $2.5 trillion of MBS's is pumping money into the system, it isn't. 

It's not about buying a few bonds by CB's, it's about money velocity which continues to decline.




Are you suggesting that equities, bonds and real estate prices have not been majorly inflated by the Fed's ZIRP policy along with Japan and europe playing too?  Seriously?




Low interest rates and buying back shares isn't inflationary, extending credit into the general economy is, why do you think most GDP growth rates are 1-2% today?


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 hours, 48 minutes
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: koods]
    #21914625 - 07/08/15 11:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Let's turn useful industrial commodities into currency. brilliant. :facepalm:




There's no perfect monetary system, a gold standard is by no means a magic solution, again it's a tool that can used by central bankers. 

The current fiat based debt system has plenty of issues as well, or do you just ignore them?


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: qman]
    #21914658 - 07/08/15 11:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
There's a reason rich libertarians such as the Koch brothers support commodity based currency, they can literally do nothing and make money.

We already went through this as a country and it's a major reason we moved away from the gold standard.

http://www.rense.com/general94/hidden.htm

http://www.businessinsider.com/americas-robber-barons-2012-3




BINGO!  The best thing that could happen would be for gold/silver prices to fall a lot further … Vaulting bars of gold and silver in giant  underground caves does exactly what for the global economy?
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:


"Because gold needs FEAR to go up"

You showing ignorance now, gold needs inflation, nothing more.

"all the money pumped into the global system"

That's a myth my friend, please explain to us how the Fed buying $2.5 trillion of MBS's is pumping money into the system, it isn't. 

It's not about buying a few bonds by CB's, it's about money velocity which continues to decline.




Are you suggesting that equities, bonds and real estate prices have not been majorly inflated by the Fed's ZIRP policy along with Japan and europe playing too?  Seriously?




Low interest rates and buying back shares isn't inflationary, extending credit into the general economy is, why do you think most GDP growth rates are 1-2% today?




GDP growth rates both domestically and globally falling is very complicated.  It has to do with baby boomers aging/retiring, the destruction of enormous equity for the middle class in 08/09, the race to the bottom in terms of globalization accessing the world's cheapest labor markets and, of course more and more countries competing at a higher quality level. 

Much of the spending power that was concentrated in the middle class from the 50's through the mid OO's was destroyed or transferred to a smaller wealthier class that simply spends money differently. 

Wealth is being created now through investments and not through increases in production and consumption.  The global transfer of wealth over the last 6 years has been nothing short of extraordinary. 

No easy answers.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (07/08/15 12:15 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
Alt Center
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21915105 - 07/08/15 01:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There is plenty enough gold to float the worlds economy. Just make it worth 100k per oz, then you are set. Bitcoins too could do the job, they may hit 100k. The only limiting factor is how fast they can mine the metals. BTW, gold is not "rocks".


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21915124 - 07/08/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
There is plenty enough gold to float the worlds economy. Just make it worth 100k per oz, then you are set. Bitcoins too could do the job, they may hit 100k. The only limiting factor is how fast they can mine the metals. BTW, gold is not "rocks".




Bitcoins are even more of a fringe currency than gold.  Bitcoins aren't backed up by anything and are super volatile. 

Go to a gold mine and take a look around and tell me that gold isn't a rock.  The reasons why we place so much value on gold as an ornamental desirable and it was stamped into coins is absolutely fascinating and a conversation worthy of a different thread. 

We are moving toward a cashless society which is 180 degrees away from a gold based society.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (07/08/15 01:42 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: Asante]
    #21915157 - 07/08/15 01:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Thats their version but its not the whole story. It also has to do with the corporations selling out America and outsourcing every single thing they could possibly outsource - sack all their American workers and rip off Asians even harder so that their millions can multiply.

If Bill Gates is in a stadium full of homeless people, on average everybody in there is a millionaire. Still, almost no one derives any sort of benefit of that.

Your middle class is being destroyed! Not by the poor, by the RICH, one in eight people is on food stamps. Keep stomping those below you into the ground, there are plenty of people above you doing the same with you, and people above that doing the same with them.

The poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer.

The rich in their greed are grazing the field faster than it grows.

THAT is the problem.




What a relentless crock of shit.  Bill Gates isn't hurting anybody by being rich and has in fact gotten rich by providing a useful service that the middle class values. He has enriched the middle class.  Unlike you.  Welfare programs create poor people through enabling them to do nothing of value.  Wages are being depressed because we let tens of millions of illegal immigrants into a shadow economy.  They also kill people.  When unemployment insurance benefits run out people are magically more likely to get jobs.  Hmm.  How odd. 

Work ethic.  It is disappearing.  How's your job going?


--------------------


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21915170 - 07/08/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
There is plenty enough gold to float the worlds economy. Just make it worth 100k per oz, then you are set. Bitcoins too could do the job, they may hit 100k. The only limiting factor is how fast they can mine the metals. BTW, gold is not "rocks".




Bitcoins are even more of a fringe currency than gold.  Bitcoins aren't backed up by anything and are super volatile. 

Go to a gold mine and take a look around and tell me that gold isn't a rock.  The reasons why we place so much value on gold as an ornamental desirable and it was stamped into coins is absolutely fascinating and a conversation worthy of a different thread. 

We are moving toward a cashless society which is 180 degrees away from a gold based society.




Gold is used quite a lot today in electronics.  Not that I disagree with the general notion of your post but it does have value today beyond just being ornamental.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21915173 - 07/08/15 01:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Asante said:
Thats their version but its not the whole story. It also has to do with the corporations selling out America and outsourcing every single thing they could possibly outsource - sack all their American workers and rip off Asians even harder so that their millions can multiply.

If Bill Gates is in a stadium full of homeless people, on average everybody in there is a millionaire. Still, almost no one derives any sort of benefit of that.

Your middle class is being destroyed! Not by the poor, by the RICH, one in eight people is on food stamps. Keep stomping those below you into the ground, there are plenty of people above you doing the same with you, and people above that doing the same with them.

The poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer.

The rich in their greed are grazing the field faster than it grows.

THAT is the problem.




What a relentless crock of shit.  Bill Gates isn't hurting anybody by being rich and has in fact gotten rich by providing a useful service that the middle class values. He has enriched the middle class.  Unlike you.  Welfare programs create poor people through enabling them to do nothing of value.  Wages are being depressed because we let tens of millions of illegal immigrants into a shadow economy.  They also kill people.  When unemployment insurance benefits run out people are magically more likely to get jobs.  Hmm.  How odd. 

Work ethic.  It is disappearing.  How's your job going?




The compacting of more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands is a major cause of decreased spending power for the middle class. 

Bill Gates has, surprising to most people, made more money as an investor than he made as the creator of Microsoft.  The return on capital has skyrocketed over the last 3 decades while the return on labor has gone down.

That's a horrible trend for a democratic society.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21915176 - 07/08/15 01:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
There is plenty enough gold to float the worlds economy. Just make it worth 100k per oz, then you are set. Bitcoins too could do the job, they may hit 100k. The only limiting factor is how fast they can mine the metals. BTW, gold is not "rocks".




Bitcoins are even more of a fringe currency than gold.  Bitcoins aren't backed up by anything and are super volatile. 

Go to a gold mine and take a look around and tell me that gold isn't a rock.  The reasons why we place so much value on gold as an ornamental desirable and it was stamped into coins is absolutely fascinating and a conversation worthy of a different thread. 

We are moving toward a cashless society which is 180 degrees away from a gold based society.




Gold is used quite a lot today in electronics.  Not that I disagree with the general notion of your post but it does have value today beyond just being ornamental.




The overwhelming majority of gold is vaulted or in coins and not used for any ornamental or industrial purpose.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 8 hours, 53 minutes
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #21915184 - 07/08/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Alright. I think it's time for people to understand a very important point that everybody seem to get wrong...

The rich aren't bad. The problem is that the poor are too poor to afford the cost of living. That's the problem. The fact that someone hass billions in his bank account doesn't matter. There's money for everybody. In fact, you create your own wealth by adding value to things. The problem is, the poor are given tasks that do create value, they just aren't paid fairly.

Now, I can already see the argument "shit work for shit pay" coming up.... Ask yourself this, would you like to ring up all your groceries by yourself or do you prefer to let the cashier do it for you? Most would say that they do their part by shopping in that store and that the store can fuck off for making me work on top of making them a profit. So the guy packing your bags does in fact create good value for you. Why not give hime a salary that won't force him to depend on your tax money?


--------------------


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21915186 - 07/08/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah orca, I meant that it has 'value' beyond ornamental.  I realize that we have far more gold secured away in vaults or in jewelry today than we need for electronics.  But that could change at some point.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Asante said:
Thats their version but its not the whole story. It also has to do with the corporations selling out America and outsourcing every single thing they could possibly outsource - sack all their American workers and rip off Asians even harder so that their millions can multiply.

If Bill Gates is in a stadium full of homeless people, on average everybody in there is a millionaire. Still, almost no one derives any sort of benefit of that.

Your middle class is being destroyed! Not by the poor, by the RICH, one in eight people is on food stamps. Keep stomping those below you into the ground, there are plenty of people above you doing the same with you, and people above that doing the same with them.

The poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer.

The rich in their greed are grazing the field faster than it grows.

THAT is the problem.




What a relentless crock of shit.  Bill Gates isn't hurting anybody by being rich and has in fact gotten rich by providing a useful service that the middle class values. He has enriched the middle class.  Unlike you.  Welfare programs create poor people through enabling them to do nothing of value.  Wages are being depressed because we let tens of millions of illegal immigrants into a shadow economy.  They also kill people.  When unemployment insurance benefits run out people are magically more likely to get jobs.  Hmm.  How odd. 

Work ethic.  It is disappearing.  How's your job going?




He's right that it's being destroyed by the rich.

http://www.times-standard.com/general-news/20110201/my-word-decades-of-trickle-down-economics-destroyed-the-american-middle-class

I don't know why he pegs Bill Gates though.  Bill seems like an alright guy to me :laugh:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: Patlal]
    #21915210 - 07/08/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Alright. I think it's time for people to understand a very important point that everybody seem to get wrong...

The rich aren't bad. The problem is that the poor are too poor to afford the cost of living. That's the problem. The fact that someone hass billions in his bank account doesn't matter. There's money for everybody. In fact, you create your own wealth by adding value to things. The problem is, the poor are given tasks that do create value, they just aren't paid fairly.

Now, I can already see the argument "shit work for shit pay" coming up.... Ask yourself this, would you like to ring up all your groceries by yourself or do you prefer to let the cashier do it for you? Most would say that they do their part by shopping in that store and that the store can fuck off for making me work on top of making them a profit. So the guy packing your bags does in fact create good value for you. Why not give hime a salary that won't force him to depend on your tax money?




The most honest answer I've heard to these questions is "because I don't want someone doing shit job X making as much money as me" or "I work harder than X so I should get paid more."

In other words, a lot of people believe that paying other people more will make their wages less by comparison and they don't want to be at the bottom of the class ladder.

Of course there's all the economic responses but automation is the only one that holds water (i.e. cost of goods is not determined by cost of wages but by competitive markets but higher wages does encourage businesses to invest more in automation).


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #21915221 - 07/08/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have made an extremely successful life from trickle down economics.  I do not build houses for government subsidized bums.  I build houses and do renovations for people with more money than me.  My wife makes real estate commissions on houses she sells to people with more money than us.  Trickle down be very good to me.


--------------------


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InvisibleStonehenge
Alt Center
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21915229 - 07/08/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If you think gold is a rock then water must be a rock too since it come from underground.

Gates is a dirtbag and ms products are crap.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: The Day The Dollar Dies? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21915234 - 07/08/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I have made an extremely successful life from trickle down economics.  I do not build houses for government subsidized bums.  I build houses and do renovations for people with more money than me.  My wife makes real estate commissions on houses she sells to people with more money than us.  Trickle down be very good to me.




I spent a lot of years making meals for people that make more money than me too.  I know a lot of other people also serve the rich.  But there's only so many people with more money.  Eventually you hit the bottom.

Pyramid schemes work great the closer you are to the top.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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