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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineCepheus
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: psi]
    #21914067 - 07/08/15 09:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I believe intelligence of some order is intrinsic to matter, and then as matter comes together in more and more complex arrangements, cognition evolves, or at least a higher order of cognition, becomes more apparent.

In terms of physical separation, the only thing that keeps me in check with the rest of the world is my own ego (the me part of my existence). There have been times when that has been obliterated by drugs and everything ceases to be, but my "ness" is still very very much alive, if not more alive than whilst there is a "me" cap on my being.

The word "atom" comes from greek and means the smallest divisible unit. Way back it was believed that things like carbon are "atoms" (and in the parlance of our time it's correct, but not technically accurate). As our technical knowledge evolves it seems to me that the separation of life from matter is one of the great fallacies of modern physics.


--------------------
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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21914069 - 07/08/15 09:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicalOrangutan said:
I understand how you could argue that life APPEARS intelligently designed with all the symmetry of most lifeforms and the complex autonomy of a living thing, but consider, human beings will get cancer and die just from doing nothing wrong, if you're unlucky enough to certain genes mutate. So many flaws and things that go wrong. Obesity, autism, being a midgit or having gigantiam, etc. Humans can't even regenerate limbs, hell if I had the power to create life I'd at least be smart enough to make people able to regrow their legs they lost at war

So really, considering all the imperfections of life, I'd say you can't argue for intelligent design, you CAN argue that life SEEMS intelligently designed at first glance




Because we put our minds to things.
It doesn't matter what it is or how impossible.
In that aspect we are a very intelligent species.

Thanks to being out of the norm we thrive due to each differing biological design.
We can generate/bring forth complete humans all the time. No matter how many lose limbs.
No matter which death, disease, decay or destruction is upon us, we always recover and go further.

Look at our survival through history. You may disagree with how we do things as a species as a whole but yet we're still going.


Edited by Beanhead (07/08/15 09:11 AM)


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly [Re: Beanhead]
    #21914140 - 07/08/15 09:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

And there are a lot more species that have been around way longer then us, I wouldn't deem them intelligent because of it nor would I deem us as intelligent because we found a way to thrive differently.

You say the universe isn't intelligently designed only because we deem ourselves intelligent and it isn't working the way we would do it if it was up to us, that doesn't make us any more capable of intelligent design or proof against it.

It's human bias, there is probably a reason everything exist the way it does, us not knowing why or saying we wouldn't do it that way isn't an argument against intellgent design IMO

Intelligent design wouldn't be restricted to only livi ng things too, intelligent design is everything, the universe as a whole and how it operates would be intelligently designed, living things included but only a small fraction of a large equation.


Edited by SirShroomsAlott (07/08/15 09:34 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Confucian] * 1
    #21914155 - 07/08/15 09:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
One argues that living things were designed by an intelligent man that is invisible that lives in outer space because they are ignorant and don't understand evolution.





does it sound any more ridiculous than all life being created by a few proteins
and minerals combining and creating life after an enormous explosion, that
everything came from nothing?


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InvisibleConfucian
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21914266 - 07/08/15 10:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Confucian said:
One argues that living things were designed by an intelligent man that is invisible that lives in outer space because they are ignorant and don't understand evolution.





does it sound any more ridiculous than all life being created by a few proteins
and minerals combining and creating life after an enormous explosion, that
everything came from nothing?




No. Not at all.

One is a natural process that can be studied/observed/understood.

Another is a super natural fairy tale invented by very primitive hunter gatherers who didn't shower, didn't have paper to wipe their behinds, didn't have refrigerators, electricity, or any clue as to how the world worked.


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Confucian]
    #21914277 - 07/08/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The big bang coming from nothing can't be observed and probably never truly understood if they're right about time and space not even existing before it.

We also haven't been able to recreate life from scratch so that also hasnt be observed or understood as of yet either.

Being plausible, and being observed and studied are two different things.


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InvisibleConfucian
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21914303 - 07/08/15 10:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Also, it's very sad and intellectually lazy to just say "God did it" when there is a mystery. I think they call it the God of the Gaps, and every day this God slowly disintegrates.


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OfflineOggy
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21914307 - 07/08/15 10:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Everything on this planet was designed to be part of something. It's easy to see that in nature. If one species goes extinct hundreds, possibly thousands of species would be affected by it.

Every living thing has been constructed over millions of years to work, survive and thrive through one another. If not for plants, rabbit would die, if not for the rabbit the fox would have nothing to hunt.

Here's an easy to understand euphenism: we're all apart of a big domino stack, it would take only one stray piece to fall over to topple the rest.


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InvisibleConfucian
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21914319 - 07/08/15 10:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
The big bang coming from nothing can't be observed and probably never truly understood if they're right about time and space not even existing before it.

We also haven't been able to recreate life from scratch so that also hasnt be observed or understood as of yet either.

Being plausible, and being observed and studied are two different things.




I am so sorry that we figured out 99.9% of what happened during an event 13.82 billion years ago, but don't know what led up to it.

And it's also terribly unfortunate that we don't have a time machine to see what happened 4500 million years ago (1 million years repeated 4500 times). Musta been an old man that lives in outer space, LOL!


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Confucian] * 1
    #21914338 - 07/08/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Confucian said:
One argues that living things were designed by an intelligent man that is invisible that lives in outer space because they are ignorant and don't understand evolution.





does it sound any more ridiculous than all life being created by a few proteins
and minerals combining and creating life after an enormous explosion, that
everything came from nothing?




No. Not at all.

One is a natural process that can be studied/observed/understood.

Another is a super natural fairy tale invented by very primitive hunter gatherers who didn't shower, didn't have paper to wipe their behinds, didn't have refrigerators, electricity, or any clue as to how the world worked.






so show us the study where we've created life artificially, created something
from nothing or created a universe. science for you is clearly a religion
because you're pushing models as fact


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Confucian]
    #21914341 - 07/08/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
The big bang coming from nothing can't be observed and probably never truly understood if they're right about time and space not even existing before it.

We also haven't been able to recreate life from scratch so that also hasnt be observed or understood as of yet either.

Being plausible, and being observed and studied are two different things.




I am so sorry that we figured out 99.9% of what happened during an event 13.82 billion years ago, but don't know what led up to it.

And it's also terribly unfortunate that we don't have a time machine to see what happened 4500 million years ago (1 million years repeated 4500 times). Musta been an old man that lives in outer space, LOL!






religious nuts, lol


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Confucian]
    #21914343 - 07/08/15 10:21 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not making an argument for god, just showing the flaws in the argument you used.

It might be sad that god did it with nothing to back up the claim, and you are correct that it is the god of the gaps argument. Whenever we reach a point that we don't understand, well then that must be "gods doing", until a better understanding comes along, and then god did that.

You call it sad but minds much greater than yours or mine have fallen back to that argument. Issac Newton being the perfect example. It seems to be human nature to want to have the answer to something whether it be the right one or not, what you call sad, I call normal :shrug: even if I don't happen to agree with any of it myself.

And just because we have an understanding of the events and how they happened, still isn't proof against a god, it's just proof that religion has it wrong, but not what put it into place in the first place.

"but don't know what led up to it."

Well if time and space didn't even exist, some force (call that force whatever you want, most say god) could of been what put it all into place, but saying so doesn't stop people from trying to figure out or understand it and explain how that force did so, so what's the problem?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21914350 - 07/08/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
I'm not making an argument for god, just showing the flaws in the argument you used.







but he said we've figured out 99.9% of what happened 13 billion years ago when
everything was created from nothing.... religion is what it sounds like


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Confucian]
    #21914354 - 07/08/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:

I am so sorry that we figured out 99.9% of what happened during an event 13.82 billion years ago, but don't know what led up to it.





Quote:

I'm sorry that we have inferred from a few tidbits of available info(microwave background radiation) 99.9% of what is assumed to have happened during an event 13.82 billion years ago(we're pretty sure about that number) but don't know what led up to it.




fixed it for you.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21914362 - 07/08/15 10:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Confucian said:

I am so sorry that we figured out 99.9% of what happened during an event 13.82 billion years ago, but don't know what led up to it.





Quote:

I'm sorry that we have inferred from a few tidbits of available info(microwave background radiation) 99.9% of what is assumed to have happened during an event 13.82 billion years ago(we're pretty sure about that number) but don't know what led up to it but we really have no clue so I'll tout this model as being the gospel according to the one true savior Richard Dawkins.




fixed it for you.




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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #21914364 - 07/08/15 10:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
I'm not making an argument for god, just showing the flaws in the argument you used.







but he said we've figured out 99.9% of what happened 13 billion years ago when
everything was created from nothing.... religion is what it sounds like




Indeed it does, science and atheism are used by certain individuals as a religion itself, nothing, and I repeat, nothing has all the answers, and those answers can always be wrong, especially since we don't know everything about the universe and new discoveries lead to changes in science itself. It isn't absolute, but is used as if it was. We can discover things 40 years from now about the universe that revolutionizes how we perceive the universe and how it came to be, our answers as of now are just the best ones that fit with the things we have an understanding on, incomplete.


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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21914390 - 07/08/15 10:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

some theorists argue that our universe might be spawned from the collapse of a four-dimension star. lol. whatever that means


Our Universe Evolved from the Black Hole of a Collapsed 4-D Star 


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Vsnares.Zappa]
    #21914407 - 07/08/15 10:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Im more interested in the temperature irregularities that dont coincide with classically held belief :strokebeard2:


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Offlineqman
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Oggy]
    #21914438 - 07/08/15 10:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oggy said:
Everything on this planet was designed to be part of something. It's easy to see that in nature. If one species goes extinct hundreds, possibly thousands of species would be affected by it.

Every living thing has been constructed over millions of years to work, survive and thrive through one another. If not for plants, rabbit would die, if not for the rabbit the fox would have nothing to hunt.

Here's an easy to understand euphenism: we're all apart of a big domino stack, it would take only one stray piece to fall over to topple the rest.




So with your line of reasoning, if a species goes extinct it could cause the destruction of all life on Earth.  You do realize 99% of all species are gone.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: qman]
    #21914458 - 07/08/15 11:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Oggy said:
Everything on this planet was designed to be part of something. It's easy to see that in nature. If one species goes extinct hundreds, possibly thousands of species would be affected by it.

Every living thing has been constructed over millions of years to work, survive and thrive through one another. If not for plants, rabbit would die, if not for the rabbit the fox would have nothing to hunt.

Here's an easy to understand euphenism: we're all apart of a big domino stack, it would take only one stray piece to fall over to topple the rest.




So with your line of reasoning, if a species goes extinct it could cause the destruction of all life on Earth.  You do realize 99% of all species are gone.




yeah, ecology is a bit more complex than the domino effect.  but it is a decent(if highly simplified) analogy.  It applies more to trophic specialists and less to trophic generalists.


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