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InvisibleMagicalOrangutan
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Registered: 06/29/12
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How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"?
    #21911717 - 07/07/15 08:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I understand how you could argue that life APPEARS intelligently designed with all the symmetry of most lifeforms and the complex autonomy of a living thing, but consider, human beings will get cancer and die just from doing nothing wrong, if you're unlucky enough to certain genes mutate. So many flaws and things that go wrong. Obesity, autism, being a midgit or having gigantiam, etc. Humans can't even regenerate limbs, hell if I had the power to create life I'd at least be smart enough to make people able to regrow their legs they lost at war

So really, considering all the imperfections of life, I'd say you can't argue for intelligent design, you CAN argue that life SEEMS intelligently designed at first glance


--------------------
On the ground you lay, with your dogs you pray, at a neon hieroglyph sky you gaze

Hugging your mind, praying to survive, feeling the love of the hieroglyphs in the sky
We all need more love, and mainly less hate
Hate is the blind that covers the heart's eye
That makes the heart's eye cry
Locked deep away in the skies of our minds

It's all in the mind


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
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Registered: 07/11/06
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Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21911724 - 07/07/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It's lack of imagination combined with sheer ignorance of life's processes. And of course, don't forget about the charlatans who are slavering to turn a quick buck on the abundance of these precious natural resources.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
shoulda died already
I'm a teapot


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21911739 - 07/07/15 08:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I believe in an 'ever-existing conscious life entity' but I don't however believe everything was set to perfection. It's more like a controlled demolition. As far as a god in the grand scheme of things.. I don't know, can you see the bugs on an ant's knee?


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InvisibleMagicalOrangutan
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Registered: 06/29/12
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #21911804 - 07/07/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So considering more intelligence would equate to more perfection, this intelligent designer wasn't as intelligent as they thought they were


--------------------
On the ground you lay, with your dogs you pray, at a neon hieroglyph sky you gaze

Hugging your mind, praying to survive, feeling the love of the hieroglyphs in the sky
We all need more love, and mainly less hate
Hate is the blind that covers the heart's eye
That makes the heart's eye cry
Locked deep away in the skies of our minds

It's all in the mind


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
shoulda died already
I'm a teapot


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21911813 - 07/07/15 08:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You're assuming you know intention other than your own.

Also, if you understand this passage, in response to perfection,

Nothing gold can stay.


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Registered: 06/02/09
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Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21911922 - 07/07/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I dont think its intelligently designed but it cultivates intelligence through beautifully subtle complexity. You say cancer is what eliminates the possibility of intelligent design but I think its one of those fundamental things that drives life to grow stronger. We're forced to understand ourselves at a deeper level to defeat it. Theres millions of these subtle little things out there like that, that cultivate and nurture a deeper intelligence and awareness in life. Even something like an omniverous diet slowly forces and escalates evolution into a dominant intelligence like us. It drives us to grow a strong memory, the ability to communicate, to build tools. It might not be some divine essence running a printing press for life and popping out life forms out of thin air, but there is an almost well thought out route to higher sapience that the greater whole of life pushes itself through to evolve, and from us and that intelligence I think there lies very little seperation.


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan] * 1
    #21911927 - 07/07/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:threadmonitor: for AF's input.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
shoulda died already
I'm a teapot


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #21911979 - 07/07/15 09:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
I dont think its intelligently designed but it cultivates intelligence through beautifully subtle complexity. You say cancer is what eliminates the possibility of intelligent design but I think its one of those fundamental things that drives life to grow stronger. We're forced to understand ourselves at a deeper level to defeat it. Theres millions of these subtle little things out there like that, that cultivate and nurture a deeper intelligence and awareness in life. Even something like an omniverous diet slowly forces and escalates evolution into a dominant intelligence like us. It drives us to grow a strong memory, the ability to communicate, to build tools. It might not be some divine essence running a printing press for life and popping out life forms out of thin air, but there is an almost well thought out route to higher sapience that the greater whole of life pushes itself through to evolve, and from us and that intelligence I think there lies very little seperation.



It's hard to design something when it's always changing. Otherwise you'd need to pick and choose moments in time that are relevant to the point. Like a photograph or a memory.


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InvisibleConfucian
...
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Registered: 03/31/09
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #21912112 - 07/07/15 09:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

One argues that living things were designed by an intelligent man that is invisible that lives in outer space because they are ignorant and don't understand evolution.


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
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Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #21912452 - 07/07/15 10:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

XLCaps said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
I dont think its intelligently designed but it cultivates intelligence through beautifully subtle complexity. You say cancer is what eliminates the possibility of intelligent design but I think its one of those fundamental things that drives life to grow stronger. We're forced to understand ourselves at a deeper level to defeat it. Theres millions of these subtle little things out there like that, that cultivate and nurture a deeper intelligence and awareness in life. Even something like an omniverous diet slowly forces and escalates evolution into a dominant intelligence like us. It drives us to grow a strong memory, the ability to communicate, to build tools. It might not be some divine essence running a printing press for life and popping out life forms out of thin air, but there is an almost well thought out route to higher sapience that the greater whole of life pushes itself through to evolve, and from us and that intelligence I think there lies very little seperation.



It's hard to design something when it's always changing. Otherwise you'd need to pick and choose moments in time that are relevant to the point. Like a photograph or a memory.





Im not quite sure what youre trying to say, or how its even related to what im saying...


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OfflineAdolin
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21912479 - 07/07/15 11:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicalOrangutan said:
I understand how you could argue that life APPEARS intelligently designed with all the symmetry of most lifeforms and the complex autonomy of a living thing, but consider, human beings will get cancer and die just from doing nothing wrong, if you're unlucky enough to certain genes mutate. So many flaws and things that go wrong. Obesity, autism, being a midgit or having gigantiam, etc. Humans can't even regenerate limbs, hell if I had the power to create life I'd at least be smart enough to make people able to regrow their legs they lost at war

So really, considering all the imperfections of life, I'd say you can't argue for intelligent design, you CAN argue that life SEEMS intelligently designed at first glance





the process of trial and error (what you're talking about in the quote) is exactly what the intellegent design concept hinges on


for example,(IMO) intellegent design isnt "god created human beings", it is "God created the process which produced human beings"


either way the concept is flexible, and i dont necessarily subscribe to its popular definition.


Edited by Adolin (07/07/15 11:06 PM)


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Offlineteamkiller
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Adolin]
    #21912934 - 07/08/15 12:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

didn't read thread but i 100% agree.  One of the reasons intelligent design never appealed to me. Humans are designed like like bags of trash.


--------------------


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
shoulda died already
I'm a teapot


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: teamkiller]
    #21912944 - 07/08/15 12:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

i wonder how a contractor would feel if he was just getting a house framed and some asshole came along and said "hey, you do shit work."


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
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Registered: 06/02/09
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #21912959 - 07/08/15 12:49 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

He just hates it because hes trans :cookiemonster:


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,869
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21912999 - 07/08/15 01:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicalOrangutan said:
I understand how you could argue that life APPEARS intelligently designed with all the symmetry of most lifeforms and the complex autonomy of a living thing, but consider, human beings will get cancer and die just from doing nothing wrong, if you're unlucky enough to certain genes mutate. So many flaws and things that go wrong. Obesity, autism, being a midgit or having gigantiam, etc. Humans can't even regenerate limbs, hell if I had the power to create life I'd at least be smart enough to make people able to regrow their legs they lost at war

So really, considering all the imperfections of life, I'd say you can't argue for intelligent design, you CAN argue that life SEEMS intelligently designed at first glance




you seem to think that intelligent design implies designing an immortal creature. an archetype of the "perfect" creature.  The fact that you see mortality as the weak link in the intelligent design viewpoint simply shows that you haven't thought it out far enough.  try to imagine a world where nothing ever dies. a world with just a handful of perfect immortal species.
BORING!  whats the fun in that?  now imagine a world where a relatively simple design has been modified and replicated innumerable times to create vast diversity of many kinds of life that are growing and changing all the time.  A world where the sheer diversity of life virtually ensures that it will always march on, in some form or another.

now, if you were designing life, which type of life would YOU strive to create?  perfect static life or chaotic shifting unstoppable life?


--------------------


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21913414 - 07/08/15 04:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

MagicalOrangutan said:
I understand how you could argue that life APPEARS intelligently designed with all the symmetry of most lifeforms and the complex autonomy of a living thing, but consider, human beings will get cancer and die just from doing nothing wrong, if you're unlucky enough to certain genes mutate. So many flaws and things that go wrong. Obesity, autism, being a midgit or having gigantiam, etc. Humans can't even regenerate limbs, hell if I had the power to create life I'd at least be smart enough to make people able to regrow their legs they lost at war

So really, considering all the imperfections of life, I'd say you can't argue for intelligent design, you CAN argue that life SEEMS intelligently designed at first glance




you seem to think that intelligent design implies designing an immortal creature. an archetype of the "perfect" creature.  The fact that you see mortality as the weak link in the intelligent design viewpoint simply shows that you haven't thought it out far enough.  try to imagine a world where nothing ever dies. a world with just a handful of perfect immortal species.
BORING!  whats the fun in that?  now imagine a world where a relatively simple design has been modified and replicated innumerable times to create vast diversity of many kinds of life that are growing and changing all the time.  A world where the sheer diversity of life virtually ensures that it will always march on, in some form or another.

now, if you were designing life, which type of life would YOU strive to create?  perfect static life or chaotic shifting unstoppable life?



If I were designing life I would definitely make it so that lifeforms evolved from assholes up. Start with asshole, then later a mouth to feed the asshole, then tentacles to swim with to get food particles in the mouth to feed the asshole, and sho on and sho on until you have some crafty and narcissistic creatures who think they're hot shit, and can even create artificial life and robotic intelligence, even though their intelligence is only a means to throw food particles in their mouth hole to feed their asshole. Because that would be a hilarious way to "intelligently" design life from bottom up, and it just keeps on giving, eon after eon!


--------------------
I have pneumonia :pm:



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Invisiblepsi
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21913731 - 07/08/15 07:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Arguably there is a sort of intelligence to the process of evolution itself. In some ways this 'intelligence' is very limited, but the results are pretty impressive.


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: psi]
    #21913823 - 07/08/15 08:01 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Life is the most intelligent thing in the universe. Life is the universe, the universe is life. God is not a separate entity, god is life.

To argue that the adaptations that have occurred during the 4.3billion years that this planet has existed are not intelligent, is just as much of a foolish argument as to say some deity sat in the clouds made it all.

The fundamental issue with all arguments is communication. What does a Christian or a Muslim or a Sikh or whatever actually mean when they say god? What do I mean when I say that I am alive? What do you mean when you say intelligent?

If a human can be intelligent, how is life not intelligent? Just because I don't understand the process I can't write it off as not being intelligent.


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

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Offlinefapjack
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: MagicalOrangutan]
    #21913988 - 07/08/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There are a lot of theories, but how you go from a simple molecule that replicates to a complex molecule like RNA is not a simple task.  Even with all our technology we still haven't replicated the process.  I'm equally as skeptical about either idea.  If it was such a common occurrence how come we can't replicate it nor has it been observed in nature?  Simple life processes of even bacteria are extremely complex, the more I learn about them the more I am amazed and the less I think I know.  Science doesn't answer every question.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: How can one argue that living things are truly "intelligently designed"? [Re: Cepheus]
    #21914012 - 07/08/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

One component of what most people would understand as intelligence is the capacity for imagination and planning, and that's not really something we see with the evolutionary process itself (except through our influence). New useful genes/traits aren't purposefully designed in nature, their initial appearance is just by happenstance (and far more of the time it's something useless or harmful instead that comes up). The capacity for planning is something we see in some of the life forms that resulted from the process though, including ourselves.


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