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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet?
    #21797513 - 06/12/15 01:18 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I'm reading through the DMT handbook and just realized that these people are talking about B Caapi leaves, as opposed to the vines.

1) Does anybody know if the vines smoke well? I bought it shredded :shrug: And I don't see B Caapi leaves on my go to botanical site, they only have different kinds of shredded vine. 2) If I absolutely need the leaf, can anyone recommend a source?

This obviously makes use of a MAOI, but I have not seen a single mention of a MAOI diet surrounding the use of changa. I'm hoping that the time frame of the diet would be shorter since its smoked not ingested. 3) Do I need to worry about a MAOI diet when using changa?




(if you do need a MAOI diet, this probably means you shouldn't make changa with kanna :sad: Then again, some say that it is not an SSRI at all, but a PDE-4 inhibitor)


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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #21797782 - 06/12/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Diet isn't a big deal for changa. And I don't think caapi vine would be good to smoke. What you could do is extract the harmalas from that shredded vine, then mix a weight of that with the DMT onto some actual leaves. At that point, it won't matter whether it's caapi leaves or mint leaves or w/e cause you'll already have the MAOI.


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Offlines240779
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #21797863 - 06/12/15 02:42 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Regarding the concept of an MAOI diet, read the post I made a few hours ago. Blows the door off the hinges about MAOI concerns. Most people have never even eaten an MAOI blacklisted food in their life.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21796757#21796757


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: s240779]
    #21798697 - 06/12/15 05:33 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

interesting post da2ra! I had never heard of nardil either, might have to read up on that.

Very good to know about the MAOI's. Thank you for questioning dogma :congrats:


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Icon]
    #21798709 - 06/12/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icon said:
Diet isn't a big deal for changa. And I don't think caapi vine would be good to smoke. What you could do is extract the harmalas from that shredded vine, then mix a weight of that with the DMT onto some actual leaves. At that point, it won't matter whether it's caapi leaves or mint leaves or w/e cause you'll already have the MAOI.



darn.

thanks though. Extracting the harmalas shouldn't be much extra trouble


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OfflineHarryL
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #21799033 - 06/12/15 06:44 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

B caapi in high doses is psychoactive but not in smokable amounts

When people talk about th vine, they do mean b caapi but for changa or aya, it's the DMT people are really after

Peace


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Icon]
    #21799224 - 06/12/15 07:37 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icon said:
What you could do is extract the harmalas from that shredded vine, then mix a weight of that with the DMT onto some actual leaves. At that point, it won't matter whether it's caapi leaves or mint leaves or w/e cause you'll already have the MAOI.




It's not what you could do...it's what you DO do!  Doesn't matter the source of your harmalas.  Could be syrian rue or caapi vine.

Step 1)  Extract the harmala alkaloids.
Step 2) Dissolve DMT in a 1:1 ratio onto your chosen leaf material.  In other words, for every 500mg of leaf, use 500mg of DMT.
Step 3)  Dissolve 30 - 50 mg of harmalas and add it to the leaf material.  Allow to dry.  Fini.

Done this way, when you measure out 60mg of leaf, you know you have 30mg of DMT.  Makes the math easy.  Oh...and no diet is required.  That's just plain silly!

N.B.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Nature Boy]
    #21824380 - 06/18/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

terence mentions smoking the vine in 'true hallucinations' :shrug:


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Offlineqweqaz
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #21824535 - 06/18/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

So if math is correct then 6mg of Harmala to 30mg of DMT? for an effective dose..what about smoking same amount of Harmala..say 30mg of Harmala and 30mg of DMT right after?, will that make the trip longer or stronger?


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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: qweqaz]
    #21824602 - 06/18/15 05:19 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Most assuredly!

N.B.


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Nature Boy]
    #21898420 - 07/04/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah after reading up some it appears you would have to mainly worry about pethidine interacting with the reversible MAOIs. Because tyramine simply deactivates the reversible ones, diet is not important.

Apparently some medications still cause serotonin sydrome in combination with them but its hard to find a list of them and most people arent prescribed them.

Harmaline increases striatal dopamine release and therefore should never be used with moderate to large amounts of amphetamines, methamphetamines, MDMA, MDE, MDA, Cathinone, Methcathinone, Diethylenedioxymethcathinone, ephedrine, or psuedo. Thats probably the reason why there are warnings against combining "cold medicines" with the reversibles.

I dont think i have seen any papers stating the potency of leaf but im sure it has the majority of the harmala alkaloids in B. Caapi vine.

Extracting and laying it on "changa" is your best bet for smoking.
Quote:

Step 1)  Extract the harmala alkaloids.
Step 2) Dissolve DMT in a 1:1 ratio onto your chosen leaf material.  In other words, for every 500mg of leaf, use 500mg of DMT.
Step 3)  Dissolve 30 - 50 mg of harmalas and add it to the leaf material.  Allow to dry.




I would suggest laying it on cannabis buds to potentiate the effects and calm the stomach some BUT do not use a CBD-rich strain (its been shown to act as an antipsychotic)


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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #21898489 - 07/04/15 08:55 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Toadstool5 said:
Harmaline increases striatal dopamine release and therefore should never be used with moderate to large amounts of amphetamines, methamphetamines, MDMA, MDE, MDA, Cathinone, Methcathinone, Diethylenedioxymethcathinone, ephedrine, or psuedo. Thats probably the reason why there are warnings against combining "cold medicines" with the reversibles.




There's two people on SocialAnxietySupport.com who use high doses of amphetamines in combination with the MAOIs, Nardil and Parnate,[1][2] both of which are MAO-A and MAO-B inhibitors. Furthermore, an article states the following: 'We have found all antidepressants that do not involve significant serotonin reuptake inhibition (e.g., bupropion, trazodone, and tricyclics other than clomipramine) can be safely administered with MAOIs. Combination therapy is worth considering because it may be effective when other approaches have failed.'[3]

There's an Erowid Experience Report where individuals actually took all three of those MDxs in combination with ayahuasca.[4] Furthermore, another Shroomery member recently reported having seen reports of people ingesting MDMA in combination with rue.[5] It wouldn't surprise me if taking MDx in combination with ayahuasca was safe because the serotonergic antidepressants that have been red flagged in the context of MAOIs have been found to diminish the effects of psychedelics.[6] The MDxs do not diminish the effects of psychedelics. This leads me to believe that the effect that the MDxs have on the brain's serotonin system is of a much lower magnitude than that of the various serotonergic antidepressants.


Also it seems to me like many people have never even violated the pharmaceutical MAOI diet in their entire life. A member on SocialAnxietySupport.com who has been on Nardil states that he's never paid any attention to the diet restrictions ever and that the only time he incurred a hypertensive crisis is when he ate spoiled meat:

It's very rare to have a hypertensive crisis while on MAOIs, but the danger is there and you can get one when you least expect it. Took me two years to find out how it felt like. I ate spoiled meat and it gave me a splitting headache, felt like my head was about to explode. Before that incident i had been eating everything and paid the diet no concern at all.

I still don't care about the diet, but gourmet cheese and spoiled food should be avoided at all costs.


Re: MAOI "diet" by psychiatrists - a joke?. 09-22-2014.


The following article sheds light on why he would be able to get away with this:

MAO Inhibtors: Risks, benefits, and lore. Wimbiscus, Molly MD; Olga Kostenk, MD; Donald Malone, MD. Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine. vol. 77, no. 12, Dec 2010


1. Im not taking Nardil but I'm taking 80mg Parnate. Recent studies show that if you're MAOI resistant stimulants can help. I'm taking 70 mg of Vyvanse and Ritalin (not Adderal). My blood pressure is normal and the MAOI started working. Some people go as high as 120mg with stimulants. Just watch your blood pressure. Of course the higher you go the dietary restrictions become more pertinent.

7/2/2014 http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1073591857-post542.html


2. Stimulant + MAOI journal. 04-05-2014.


3. Cole J, Bodkin A. MAO inhibitors: An option worth trying in treatment-resistant cases. Current Psychiatry, Vol. 1, No. 6, June 2002


4. https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=24742



5. I was reading reports from people taking Syrian Rue with low MDMA dosage resulting in pleasant experiences. There are reports of people taking too much mdma with the rue as well.

05/31/15 - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21745845

6. The Interactions between Hallucinogens and Antidepressants: Summary of Results from Online Survey and Online Interviews. From personal communication and posted to Usenet, Oct 3, 1994. Kit Bonson. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml


Edited by s240779 (07/04/15 09:00 PM)


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: s240779]
    #21898512 - 07/04/15 09:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

We have found all antidepressants that do not involve significant serotonin reuptake inhibition (e.g., bupropion, trazodone, and tricyclics other than clomipramine) can be safely administered with MAOIs




A very good point!

Quote:

combination with ayahuasca was safe because the serotonergic antidepressants that have been red flagged in the context of MAOIs have been found to diminish the effects of psychedelics. The MDxs do not diminish the effects of psychedelics. This leads me to believe that the effect that the MDxs have on the brain's serotonin system is of a much lower magnitude than that of the various serotonergic antidepressants.




They are like the SSRIs that arent strong enough to trigger problems but overstimulation of the striatal dopaminergic receptors can lead to neurotoxicity.

Harmaline itself triggers these DA receptors slightly so it can potentiate the damage done by other drugs such as methamphetamines.

I think stimulants might actually help with the aortial hypertension to be honest :shrug:


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Re: Changa Questions: vine or leaf, maoi diet? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #21910297 - 07/07/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the input. :smile:


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