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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
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I did read your response I'm being like 70% serious here.
Honestly I don't know if it's a mental illness or not. I think it can be defended either way depending on your cultural, religious and political background. I try to be open minded and understanding but not so open minded that my brain falls out.
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Sophistic Radiance
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It's more cut and dry than you are portraying it. I reiterate, a clinical issue is not a mental illness if it is resolved through medical means. Gender dysphoria can only be resolved through transition. It is a psychiatric manifestation of a non psychiatric issue, similar to how clinical depression can be caused by severe chronic pain, for example.
It would be inaccurate to call a healthy trans person, who has successfully resolved his or her gender dysphoria (or even avoided it altogether) through medical transition, mentally or medically ill just because they are trans. However, this trope is useful to transphobes, since they are able to attribute a delusional and diseased status to our very existence through it. To the transphobe, trans people, especially if they're healthy, are the evidence of a sick society, and they must be cleansed, either through willful repression or through systematic negligence, in order to bring society back to health. This ideology bears the same shade as the notion of "racial purity" through eugenics.
My position on this issue has not been ambiguous or mercurial, as gorlax insists. Being trans is absolutely not a mental illness and I reject this characterization of trans people's experiences.
Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/18/15 12:09 AM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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is BIID a mental illness? (yes, this again)
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: ballsalsa]
#21958979 - 07/18/15 01:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't know. I really don't know much about it at all and I'm not the right person to be asking about it, as I am neither a credible psychiatric authority nor a sufferer of BIID.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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ballsalsa
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Quote:
BlindSophist said: I don't know. I really don't know much about it at all and I'm not the right person to be asking about it, as I am neither a credible psychiatric authority nor a sufferer of BIID.
really? because this:
Quote:
BlindSophist said: It's more cut and dry than you are portraying it. I reiterate, a clinical issue is not a mental illness if it is resolved through medical means. Gender dysphoria can only be resolved through transition. It is a psychiatric manifestation of a non psychiatric issue, similar to how clinical depression can be caused by severe chronic pain, for example.
It would be inaccurate to call a healthy trans person, who has successfully resolved his or her gender dysphoria (or even avoided it altogether) through medical transition, mentally or medically ill just because they are trans. However, this trope is useful to transphobes, since they are able to attribute a delusional and diseased status to our very existence through it. To the transphobe, trans people, especially if they're healthy, are the evidence of a sick society, and they must be cleansed, either through willful repression or through systematic negligence, in order to bring society back to health. This ideology bears the same shade as the notion of "racial purity" through eugenics.
My position on this issue has not been ambiguous or mercurial, as gorlax insists. Being trans is absolutely not a mental illness and I reject this characterization of trans people's experiences.
sounds like something a credible psychiatric authority would say. also, since we are nitpicking vocabulary ITT, i notice that you said that you are not a "sufferer" BIID. this language implies that you do believe BIID to be an affliction, despite your claims to have little knowledge or opinion about it. I already linked a study showing that BIID has been treated successfully with surgery, thereby fulfilling your metric of being resolved through medical means. That being the case, do you think that People with BIID are afflicted, or just natural variants of humanity? or was "sufferer" just a poor word choice to describe what you meant?
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: ballsalsa]
#21959066 - 07/18/15 02:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think it's comparable, since the amputation of limbs entails a major loss of functionality. Transition increases functionality across a range of variables and side effects of its treatments are very readily managed.
You also never answered my question about the prevalence of BIID among the general population. AFAIK a liberal estimate puts the number of sufferers in the triple digits. Call me paranoid, but it does appear to me as though you are employing reductio ad absurdum tactics in order to discredit me.
I am a sufferer of gender dysphoria, one in convalescence, reflecting on her experiences. That is the authority on which I call. It is not an authority which is shared by you or any of the many other armchair psychiatrists in this thread attempting to invalidate and erase the experiences reported by actual trans people out of pedantic fidelity to your own ignorant stereotypes. The level of arrogance and self-entitlement displayed through this behavior is mind-numbing.
Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/18/15 02:30 AM)
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ

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i don't get how this whole "save them" mentality is about them. 
people have a bug up their ass about the wrong thing here. it's despicable.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Quote:
BlindSophist said: I don't think it's comparable, since the amputation of limbs entails a major loss of functionality. Transition increases functionality across a range of variables and side effects of its treatments are very readily managed.
You also never answered my question about the prevalence of BIID among the general population. AFAIK a liberal estimate puts the number of sufferers in the triple digits. Call me paranoid, but it does appear to me as though you are employing reductio ad absurdum tactics in order to discredit me.
I am a sufferer of gender dysphoria, one in convalescence, reflecting on her experiences. That is the authority on which I call. It is not an authority which is shared by you or any of the many other armchair psychiatrists in this thread attempting to invalidate and erase the reported experiences of actual trans people out of pedantic fidelity to your own ignorant stereotypes. The level of arrogance and self-entitlement displayed through this behavior is mind-numbing.
yes, i've figured out that this is an emotional topic of discussion for you, but i'm just having a debate. i have no dog in this fight. you are paranoid. i am not trying to discredit you, i'm trying to ask you point blank if you think that BIID, a medical condition that in fact has been treated with surgery resulting in increased function, confers a moral obligation on society to provide said surgical treatment? BTW, i don't understand why the number of sufferers is relevent to the question. is there some magical threshold number?
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: ballsalsa]
#21959127 - 07/18/15 02:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I know of several trans women who have been driven away from this community by the sheer transphobia put on display in threads such as these. For one which is founded on libertarianism and harm reduction, this community is seen as intensely unwelcoming and intimidating towards all of the trans women I've met here. Are there any sufferers of BIID here, I wonder? How many BIID sufferers have been driven away from the Shroomery by the intense distrust and suspicion of people who wish to be amputated which permeates our community? Again, I believe that you are employing reductio ad absurdum tactics to smear trans people by refusing to let go of this plainly ridiculous notion that amputation can be meaningfully compared with transition.
And I disagree with your assertion that amputation results in "increased function" even if it does confer a sense of well-being to those with BIID.
Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/18/15 02:55 AM)
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ballsalsa
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it isn't my assertion, i linked it, but you didn't read the study.
you still won't answer the question then?
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: ballsalsa]
#21959160 - 07/18/15 02:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: it isn't my assertion, i linked it, but you didn't read the study.
you still won't answer the question then?
Transitioning does not involve a loss of functioning. Amputation does. This is painfully obvious. I'm not interested in answering your begged question or encouraging your ridiculous antagonism any further.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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ballsalsa
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actually, it turns out that its easier to function as an amputee than to go through the hassle of pretending to be one 
since you won't answer the question, i can only assume that you would prefer that people with BIID go on living their lives without treatment. (feel free to correct me if i'm wrong here) Why would you deny someone the medically necessary surgery that they need in order to feel like themselves?
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Achillita
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Re: Transgender children [Re: ballsalsa]
#21959234 - 07/18/15 04:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think that having children taking drugs to transition themselves at an early age is a bit too much. As they mature, I'd consider much more. Depending on the long term effects of any sort of puberty delaying drug would definitely factor into my decision.
At around 15-16 years old is when I'd truly consider helping my child transition if they wanted to. Before then, I might consider it depending on how serious they are, and how long they have been contemplating it.
But I'd never deny them if they wanted to dress/act like the opposite gender. If they want to do that, I'd allow them to at whatever age they wanted to. I see no reason to deny that.
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Gorlax



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Re: Transgender children [Re: Achillita]
#21959353 - 07/18/15 05:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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dude just quit the thread. There is no reason to be in a thread with BS she won't take any ADVICE !!! EVER !!
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Beanhead
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Gorlax]
#21959552 - 07/18/15 07:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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You guise stahp hating
 how 'bout no?
trans is fab

OOHHHHHH I want these.
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Gorlax



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Re: Transgender children [Re: Beanhead]
#21959585 - 07/18/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Dude that is never been my argument. My argument is why can't you be trans without adding hormones to your body that shouldn't be there. I absolutely guarantee you wont' get it let alone be able to pay for the doctors that do the actual procedure. It's not like getting breast implants. Why should you block receptors that have a lot more functions then making you one gender. why would you remove a healthy organ for a metnal illenss.. Look it up, It's a mental illness. People on this site preech about how you should eat vegan, organic, and are concerned about GMO yet think this is natural GTFO...
Meditation hiking Nature kayaking Personal talks with people
You know the doctors don't care. They just want money. I know so many doctors. There's a reason before anything happens they want credit information or money. I'm telling the truth. Hey, maybe you can vote on obamacare to cover it.
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Beanhead
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Gorlax]
#21959629 - 07/18/15 08:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Too many reasons to list ! :3 They can have my money ^-^ Yes we all have psychoneurosis, it comes and it goes. If that makes it easier on your mind then okay . I'm embracing being outgoing again though ʅ(◔౪◔ ) ʃ You're a drug user, you do know all drug users only use drugs cause they have mental illness right? Ur sick! Indeed it's so much more then implants!
You're right I also had that concern of HRT not being sufficient, science lacking in knowledge of the bigger picture & pharmacology/chemistry of hormones, genes, modulators, hormonal makeup, brainwiring, etc.
"Meditation hiking Nature kayaking Personal talks with people"
I like those, what's up with those?
Wanna go kayaking!?
Edited by Beanhead (07/18/15 08:24 AM)
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natzyshroomer
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Registered: 12/01/12
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Beanhead]
#21959649 - 07/18/15 08:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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just another example of the progression of the gaystapo.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Oh my god get over your self! Transphobia? The definition is a fear of trans people. I don't think questioning the forced PC police is transphobic. I think it's healthy question asking as this is a particularly confusing issue. I don't think anyone here is afraid of trans people and just because you might think it's a mental illness doesn't make anyone a transphobic. Many people are ignorant to this issue, that doesn't mean they're a hater or prejudice it's means they simply don't know. There's nothing wrong with asking questions and questioning the PC police, and no it doesn't make you fearful of transpeople or a "sist" of some kind. Blindly accepting the PC police with out asking hard questions is a pretty hard liner oppressive regime. People don't know and there should be a legitimate dialogue going on to clarify issues instead of calling out everyone in the not progressive movement a "phobic" or a "sist." Shutting down legitimate dialogue is not a progressive idea, it's oppressive and it doesn't allow people to learn.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
Edited by Cognitive_Shift (07/18/15 09:50 AM)
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Beanhead
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
BlindSophist said: Being trans is not a mental illness, it is a natural variation of human sex differentiation.
What's wrong with mental illness? You know how many people have depression or anxiety disorders in the world? A LOT. There are many more depressed people then trans people but we don't call depressed people a "natural variation" of a human baseline personality. They have a disease. It is what it is, it's not the end of the world and if you want to lop your dick off and take hormones it's all good it's not my business, but it's natural? Come onnnnnnnnnnnnn
I prefer Dabrowski's look on life, DSM lumps everyone into negativity, into you're wrong, it exacerbates psychoneurosis symptoms. I'm unsure why one US book should dictate mental health research as awhole.
What i'm saying here: Jeez, i'm sure a depressed person will cheer up after hearing he is depressed :')
I mean it's fun to read through and all but there are many individual exceptions to any empirical generalization, but exceptions do not invalidate generalizations either.
Brain mapping gender identity. Luders E, Sánchez F, Tosun D, et al. Increased Cortical Thickness in Male-to-Female Transsexualism. Journal of Behavioral and Brain Science. 2012.
In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex characteristics, may be understood to be “much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology” (Coolidge et al., 2000). The scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000). It is clear that the condition cannot necessarily be overcome by “consistent psychological socialisation as male or female (tried and tested, behavioral therapy does not help) from very early childhood” ... It is understood that during the fetal period the brain is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al., 2000; 2001; 2002; 2003). In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004). The etiological pathways leading to this inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no single route is likely to be identified. Different genetic, hormonal and environmental factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female. Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly, 2003)
"GD and controls from the same biological gender. They found that transsexual subjects did not differ significantly from controls sharing their gender identity but were different from those sharing their biological gender in their regional GM volume of several brain areas, including the left and right precentral gyri, the left postcentral gyrus (including the somatosensory cortex and the primary motor cortex), the left posterior cingulate, precueneus and calcarinus, the right cuneus, the right fusiform, lingual, middle and inferior occipital, and inferior temporal gyri. Additionaly, they also found areas in the cerebellum and in the left angular gyrus and left inferior parietal lobule that showed significant structural difference between transgender subjects and controls, independent from their biological gender."
To me that screams "natural variation" but I don't see femininity and masculinity as opposite poles on a continuum but rather as parallel-running sets of traits.
Then again after hearing an old doctor once say: In every humanbeing, on average, we see three anomalies. Whether those are visible or not.
So that changed my line of thinking forever. Nowadays I celebrate that because it's this diversity that makes the humanrace thrive and take on every challenge
Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine Lenses of Gender by Sandra Lipsitz Bem ^Both very good reads.
You see in a desperate attempt to create understanding for myself I do hope what I feel has biological basis. How else will I ever explain it to people or create understanding? I won't. In a way, I don't really care, you don't have to get it.
In any case, I do see there's no point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating transgenderism somehow. But only discerning psychological causes has been overruled.
& Whilst transgenderism is a secondary notation sometimes seen in people with psychological issues; multiple personality disorder (a facet of the personality is a woman and wants to change the body) it really has nothing to do with transgender at all.
Are you going to deny treatment for someone with Kleinefelter syndrome? What about intersex conditions, or if the mother had maternal stress levels, deficient enzymes and whether she was exposed during the pregnancy to endocrine disrupting chemicals ? http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
Well, I hope some tests i'll be having will find that out. If nothing comes out of it I probably won't go through, as much as i'd love to.
The backlash these things have is astonishing, for those: seriously get over yourself
Edited by Beanhead (07/18/15 10:58 AM)
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