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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21950170 - 07/16/15 12:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
so serious that their world would be destroyed if they couldn't start hormone therapy as immediately as possible.




How do you demonstrate something like that? How would it be established clinically?




I don't know if you ever saw the documentary about Jazz, the 8 year old transgender child on ABC. But there was a clip in there where she was talking about how her parents walked in on her in the shower, with a pair of scissors to her penis, working up the courage to try and cut her own dick off. Yeah if I saw something like that I would recognize the seriousness of it.

You wouldn't have to establish or prove it clinically if it were your own kids. A mama always knows when her kids are hurting. :cool:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
    #21950173 - 07/16/15 12:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Prostate cancer, breast cancer, infertility…. these are serious things that almost none of these transgender children's parents are informed about.





How do you figure? Progressive transgender health care is defined by "informed consent". What is your reason for saying that supportive parents of trans kids don't understand these things?

Oh and by the way, it's a bit more complicated than you say when it comes to cancer risk. For example, I have a higher risk of breast cancer since I have breasts now, but my risk of prostate cancer is virtually nil since I started taking high-dose spironolactone.




There was actually a documentary about this on PBS the other day. Some of the critics of these programs talked about how parents were not being informed of the side effects of some of these hormones by the same doctors who offer hormone therapy.

Similar to how egg donation doctors or plastic surgeons rarely ever inform the patients of the TRUTH of potential side-effects and risks that could occur. Or if they are honest about the risks, they try to minimize it as much as possible.

For example, infertility is one of the biggest problems of taking hormones (which can be permanent in some cases), and many people who transition still may desire to have children one day.

I think the future will be very interesting, because I sort of see both sexes becoming more and more unisex over time. I mean there's already a shitload of estrogen in our water supply, which probably contributes to obesity rates in the USA. The change has already been happening for a while now.




In my experience, I had no access to hormone therapy until I underwent nearly six months of psychotherapy by a very expensive practitioner, and she referred me to a very expensive (go figure) endocrinologist whose services were not covered by my health insurance and I could not afford. I ended up buying my hormones from an overseas pharmacy before I finally found a sliding-scale clinic that practiced "informed consent", i.e. their requirement for prescribing hormones is that you sign your initials on each paragraph of a long (six pages) description of all the possible side effects.

I didn't watch the whole documentary that OP posted, but if the five minute clip I did watch at his behest is any indication, even public broadcasting is highly prone to misrepresenting and sensationalizing the clinical experiences of trans people.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/16/15 01:00 AM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
    #21950178 - 07/16/15 12:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
so serious that their world would be destroyed if they couldn't start hormone therapy as immediately as possible.




How do you demonstrate something like that? How would it be established clinically?




I don't know if you ever saw the documentary about Jazz, the 8 year old transgender child on ABC. But there was a clip in there where she was talking about how her parents walked in on her in the shower, with a pair of scissors to her penis, working up the courage to try and cut her own dick off. Yeah if I saw something like that I would recognize the seriousness of it.

You wouldn't have to establish or prove it clinically if it were your own kids. A mama always knows when her kids are hurting. :cool:




I never tried to chop off my balls but my ten plus years of untreated gender dysphoria were hell on earth. My mama knew I was hurting but she didn't know what I needed.

I wish people would stop basing their opinions of trans folk on famous people. These people are always narcissistic divas who DO NOT adequately represent the rest of us.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineGorlax
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21950184 - 07/16/15 12:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What's hilarious thing is if someone said they were a monkey trapped in a human's body they would be thrown into the looney bin. Not operated on.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21950186 - 07/16/15 12:52 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well in my experience having gone to various doctors (I considered egg donation when I was in college a few times), and you know what the doctor told me? It's "TOTALLY SAFE," and what changed my mind was reading stuff like this: http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1888459,00.html
http://www.buzzfeed.com/katieoreilly/i-wish-i-hadnt-donated-my-eggs#.qdmYyeW4o

Seriously, I can't count how many numbers of doctors have told me so and so surgical procedures or so and so drugs are "TOTALLY SAFE," of course they are going to say that, you are their cash cow. I'm sure there are some practicing physicians out there who seriously minimize the dangers of hormone therapy. Hell, there are tons of doctors who minimize the dangers to mid-age women who wish to undergo hormone replacement therapy after hitting menopause.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
    #21950191 - 07/16/15 12:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Well in my experience having gone to various doctors (I considered egg donation when I was in college a few times), and you know what the doctor told me? It's "TOTALLY SAFE," and what changed my mind was reading stuff like this: http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1888459,00.html
http://www.buzzfeed.com/katieoreilly/i-wish-i-hadnt-donated-my-eggs#.qdmYyeW4o

Seriously, I can't count how many numbers of doctors have told me so and so surgical procedures or so and so drugs are "TOTALLY SAFE," of course they are going to say that, you are their cash cow. I'm sure there are some practicing physicians out there who seriously minimize the dangers of hormone therapy. Hell, there are tons of doctors who minimize the dangers to mid-age women who wish to undergo hormone replacement therapy after hitting menopause.




Did you read the rest of my post? Trans people are held to a different set of standards.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21950209 - 07/16/15 01:09 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Look man, I'm on your side. Let kids cross dress, let them take hormones once they're 16-18. I just want them to be informed of all the possible dangers before undergoing anything major. When I ran steroids I knew that I could potentially be doing permanent damage to my liver, my endocrine system, that I could suffer a heart attack or stroke, that I could possibly get cancer, and become infertile.

I chose to take the risks anyway. And I would gladly do it again, even though my liver tests came back abnormal before, and stroke runs in my family.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
    #21950219 - 07/16/15 01:17 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Look man, I'm on your side. Let kids cross dress, let them take hormones once they're 16-18. I just want them to be informed of all the possible dangers before undergoing anything major. When I ran steroids I knew that I could potentially be doing permanent damage to my liver, my endocrine system, that I could suffer a heart attack or stroke, that I could possibly get cancer, and become infertile.

I chose to take the risks anyway. And I would gladly do it again, even though my liver tests came back abnormal before, and stroke runs in my family.




I know you're on my side. I'm just getting at what you said about the parents of trans kids not being informed of the side effects of puberty blockers and hormone therapy. I'm wondering what basis you have for saying that, because I suspect that it is untrue.

In my experience, as a trans person, medical practitioners are EXTREMELY reluctant to prescribe the meds that we need. I went through several doctors asking for help before I even went to the psychotherapist I mentioned. None of them wanted to touch my case. I actually got dropped from Kaiser over it.

Services like egg donation and even something like steroids are considered normal or healthy by doctors and are usually provided without much scrutiny or oversight. Requests for transsexual hormone therapy are (wrongly) regarded as insanely dangerous, usually met with a juggling act between specialists who really don't have your best interests in mind who will try to leech money from you while delaying care.

I'm only sane now that I have my hormones. Nobody forced those hormones down my throat. I had to go far out of my way to get the healing process started.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21950234 - 07/16/15 01:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:

I know you're on my side. I'm just getting at what you said about the parents of trans kids not being informed of the side effects of puberty blockers and hormone therapy. In my experience, as a trans person, medical practitioners are EXTREMELY reluctant to prescribe the care that we need. I went through several doctors asking for help before I even went to the psychotherapist I mentioned. None of them wanted to touch me. I actually got dropped from Kaiser over it.




Damn, that sucks. Sorry to hear you got dropped from Kaiser over it. I thought that insurance wasn't allowed to drop anybody's medical coverage though, due to the clause in Obamacare?

Quote:

Services like egg donation and even something like steroids are considered normal or healthy by doctors and are usually provided without much scrutiny or oversight. Requests for transsexual hormone therapy are (wrongly) regarded as insanely dangerous, usually met with a juggling act between specialists who really don't have your best interests in mind who will try to leech money from you while delaying care.




I agree with you that services like egg donation are considered normal or healthy by doctors, even though let's face it, you ARE being given extremely high doses of hormones and fertility drugs that can potentially cause cancer and infertility.

I disagree though that steroids are considered normal or healthy by doctors. Drugs such as dianabol or anadrol are only given to extreme cases of cancer patients to help them gain weight. Testosterone is only prescribed to men who suffer from low testosterone levels.

Personally, I think it's bullshit that men can be given testosterone freely, just as women can be given estrogen & progesterone freely, simply because it fits in with the binary idea of what hormone levels each gender "should" have. When I was given hormonal birth control, did any doctor tell me that I could increase my risks of breast cancer taking this shit? No they did not.

Quote:

I'm only sane now that I have my hormones. Nobody forced those hormones down my throat. I had to go far out of my way to get the healing process started.




I totally get it. If it weren't for the androgenic and long-term health side effects, I would stay on test the rest of my life. :flowstone: Unfortunately, there is no way for me to get Androgel legally prescribed to me as a woman, the only way I could get it (ironically) is if I were to go through a transgender reassignment process.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
    #21950255 - 07/16/15 01:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

My Kaiser experience took place just after Obama was elected, before the ACA got passed.

I only started hormones a year ago but pretty much the last twelve years of my life have just been a pathetic sob story about the gradual deterioration of my mental, emotional, and physical health as I was brushed off and thrown away by every health care provider I asked for the one thing that would actually fucking help me.

Again, I've got a chip on my shoulder, I freely admit to that. I think it's warranted. People (including the OP) have some fucked up notions about transgender health care and it pisses me off, big time, for good reason. I came by my outrage honestly. Gender dysphoria is a fucking bitch.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/16/15 01:39 AM)


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Invisibledaytripper05
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21950952 - 07/16/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I didn't watch the whole documentary that OP posted, but if the five minute clip I did watch at his behest is any indication, even public broadcasting is highly prone to misrepresenting and sensationalizing the clinical experiences of trans people.




If you already admitted you don't know any other trans people IRL, then how can you claim the documentary is misrepresenting an entire group of people that don't actually know? Honestly though. You sound like all-knowing source for trans people, yet seem incredibly closed minded. You also come across with a ton that since you are trans and the rest of us are not (presumably), you are the only one that can truly have an opinion or anything to say in the matter. You even go to great lengths to "correct" the way people say things.

In all seriousness, if you really wish to change peoples' views and opinions on a touchy subject, you should change the way you talk to people and show others the same level of respect you wish for yourself and other trans people. No flames or trolling here. Just some friendly words of wisdom to help further your cause.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Transgender children [Re: daytripper05]
    #21951021 - 07/16/15 09:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/i-am-jazz/

http://www.people.com/article/transgender-teen-jazz-jennings-i-am-jazz

A new show started last night on TLC, I actually watched it and did enjoy it, the main character "Jazz" is very likable.  It addressed many of the issues you guys are now discussing.  The show is going to be on every week.


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: Transgender children [Re: qman]
    #21951027 - 07/16/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Coooooooolll, thanks :-)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: daytripper05]
    #21951410 - 07/16/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper05 said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I didn't watch the whole documentary that OP posted, but if the five minute clip I did watch at his behest is any indication, even public broadcasting is highly prone to misrepresenting and sensationalizing the clinical experiences of trans people.




If you already admitted you don't know any other trans people IRL, then how can you claim the documentary is misrepresenting an entire group of people that don't actually know? Honestly though. You sound like all-knowing source for trans people, yet seem incredibly closed minded. You also come across with a ton that since you are trans and the rest of us are not (presumably), you are the only one that can truly have an opinion or anything to say in the matter. You even go to great lengths to "correct" the way people say things.

In all seriousness, if you really wish to change peoples' views and opinions on a touchy subject, you should change the way you talk to people and show others the same level of respect you wish for yourself and other trans people. No flames or trolling here. Just some friendly words of wisdom to help further your cause.




I know a lot of trans people online and I am under no obligation to spare your or anybody else's feelings. I don't need to watch a documentary to know what I'm talking about any more than I need your advice on how to talk about it.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/16/15 10:50 AM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #21951659 - 07/16/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So in all seriousness, is the next step to start providing white people who identify as/want to be black with melanin treatments to darken their skin and other treatments to allow them to transition to another race?

Or black people who wish to be/identify as white with skin whitening treatments?

And if we can make short people tall surgically, or skinny people muscular with implants and cosmetic surgery?

I know to some extent these things already happen. But is the future going to be inevitably more and more customized bodies, where we use drugs, medicine and surgery to change peoples outer form to whatever they wish to be inside?

It seems to me this will happen. And not only will people transition from one gender to another, but entirely new "designer genders" will become more and more common.

For example, what if I want to be a man who has a vagina and a penis? Or a woman with a penis and a vagina?

Or maybe we can create entirely new sex organs surgically that never existed before?

Maybe in the future sex will involve both partners having both a penis and a vagina, so that both partners will simultaneously penetrate and be penetrated by the other during sex?

And maybe in a hundred or two hundred years, we really will be able to create people who are fox like, dog like, cat like etc, for the whole Furry community out there, how long until big costumes gives way to intensive surgery and drug treatments to let people live as the animals they feel like they really are?

And of course even farther on, people will likely decide that "inside I know I was meant to be a robot. My organic body feels wrong. I am a robot in a human body" and then we can put people's brains into machines, or replace their arms and legs and other parts with robot prosthetics.

And maybe all this will be funded by tax payers and medical care.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe]
    #21951705 - 07/16/15 11:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

That post confirms my suspicions about how you see trans people. You think we are freaks and you think basic health care is elective for us.  You reduce us to the cosmetic, obsessing over our images, making light of our struggle, ignoring our lived experiences. You think we are here for your entertainment. You suggest that we should sooner suffer and die than be treated, even under universal health care. And daytripper05 here will tone police me for taking issue with that. Some days I wonder why the hell I stay on this site.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/16/15 12:18 PM)


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #21951713 - 07/16/15 12:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
So in all seriousness, is the next step to start providing white people who identify as/want to be black with melanin treatments to darken their skin and other treatments to allow them to transition to another race?

Or black people who wish to be/identify as white with skin whitening treatments?

And if we can make short people tall surgically, or skinny people muscular with implants and cosmetic surgery?

I know to some extent these things already happen. But is the future going to be inevitably more and more customized bodies, where we use drugs, medicine and surgery to change peoples outer form to whatever they wish to be inside?

It seems to me this will happen. And not only will people transition from one gender to another, but entirely new "designer genders" will become more and more common.

For example, what if I want to be a man who has a vagina and a penis? Or a woman with a penis and a vagina?

Or maybe we can create entirely new sex organs surgically that never existed before?

Maybe in the future sex will involve both partners having both a penis and a vagina, so that both partners will simultaneously penetrate and be penetrated by the other during sex?

And maybe in a hundred or two hundred years, we really will be able to create people who are fox like, dog like, cat like etc, for the whole Furry community out there, how long until big costumes gives way to intensive surgery and drug treatments to let people live as the animals they feel like they really are?

And of course even farther on, people will likely decide that "inside I know I was meant to be a robot. My organic body feels wrong. I am a robot in a human body" and then we can put people's brains into machines, or replace their arms and legs and other parts with robot prosthetics.

And maybe all this will be funded by tax payers and medical care.




If so... FUCK YEAH TRANSHUMANISM WELCOME TO THE SPACE AGE.

Does it have anything to do with biological gender and trans? Nope.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21951780 - 07/16/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Nothing in my post suggests any of the things you read into it, nor do any of those statements you made reflect how I feel or my beliefs in the slightest.

You totally misunderstand what I am saying and why I am saying it, and you read pretty dramatically off-target stuff into what I am saying.

Read my post again, it doesn't say what you think it does nor does it suggest what you think it does.

I am being dead serious. I think trans people today show a trend that will continue into the future, and more and more of this kind of biological modification to match how people want / feel their identities to be will become more and more common and available, advanced and normalized.

People WILL design their own genders. They WILL replace body parts with machine parts because they prefer that identity. People WILL change their skin color and height medically. Etc.

Thats what I am saying. NONE of that suggests I hate trans people, think they are freaks, or want to deny them medical care.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe]
    #21951791 - 07/16/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Nothing in my post suggests any of the things you read into it, nor do any of those statements you made reflect how I feel or my beliefs in the slightest.

You totally misunderstand what I am saying and why I am saying it, and you read pretty dramatically off-target stuff into what I am saying.

Read my post again, it doesn't say what you think it does nor does it suggest what you think it does.

I am being dead serious. I think trans people today show a trend that will continue into the future, and more and more of this kind of biological modification to match how people want / feel their identities to be will become more and more common and available, advanced and normalized.

People WILL design their own genders. They WILL replace body parts with machine parts because they prefer that identity. People WILL change their skin color and height medically. Etc.

Thats what I am saying. NONE of that suggests I hate trans people, think they are freaks, or want to deny them medical care.




I never said that you hated trans people. I said, in so many words, that you display a functional misunderstanding of what compels trans people to transition which trivializes our struggles to a dangerously dehumanizing extent. And I stand by it.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21951844 - 07/16/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You said I think they are freaks, which implies a hatred. I don't think they are freaks, and I know beyond a doubt that what you think of me and my position is totally wrong and based on totally false interpretations of what very little I have posted. You come across as extremely defensive, and just plain wrong in what you think of me and my position on Trans issues.

All I really did was post one thread saying "here is a cool documentary" a second post saying "this particular part is relevant for those who dont have time to watch the whole thing" and a third post saying "in the future we will see more and more forms of biological modification become commonplace" and you took those three posts and spun a completely false characterization of me out of it based on completely false interpretations of what I said and meant.

Won't bother to argue with you more, you can think what you want of me, but you will be wrong.

I probably have far , far more sympathy for, respect for and understanding of Trans people then 90+% of non-trans people in the world.

That is changing very rapidly though. People are rapidly coming to accept and support trans people now. There has been a big sea change.

I do not believe in the slightest people should have to conform to gender norms or act how their culture tells them they should act or stay in/as their birth gender if they don't want to.

As long as your lifestyle doesn't hurt others, I support it and your right to it completely.

I have not expressed one single anti-trans sentiment whatsoever, nor have I said anything that implies that I think trans people are freaks, or anything that says I deny them or would deny them medical treatment.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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