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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Blind Sophist I have a serious question- Did you actually watch the documentary I posted in the OP?
I think you would find several parts of it VERY interesting, and several parts of it apply very directly to a lot of what has been discussed here.
In fact I would just encourage everyone who has posted in this thread to watch it. Whatever your position on this issue, I am willing to bet watching the documentary will challenge your beliefs.
Very interesting debate and discussion all around.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Envix
Avoidant Disorder



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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe]
#21944705 - 07/14/15 11:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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great documentary A+
-------------------- smack a hoe out this dimension continue my ascension -bhad bhabie rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b
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daytripper05
Psychonaut




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Loc: In my garden
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe] 1
#21946144 - 07/15/15 07:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I definitely watched it. Very interesting for sure. I don't know if I have a position one way or the other about this topic.
I know that if I had to error on one side or the other, I would side with not fucking up my child's biology and postpone puberty based on something that doesn't exist anywhere else in natural world (that I aware anyway).
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Cosmic_Flame
THE BREAKFAST EMPRESS



Registered: 11/16/12
Posts: 4,184
Loc: Under The Sea
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There's like a serious amount of misinformation going around when it comes to the trans community, especially the medical aspect. I really wish people would just listen to those who have lived through this and look up the current facts, like you're literally a few clicks way from educating yourself. What's worst are the people that continue to push their baseless opinions as facts when in reality they have no idea as to what they're talking about. That ignorance and bigotry just perpetuates discrimination and violence towards this already heavily marginalized group, like why add to the stigma 
I'm happy you posted that video though. Maybe just maybe a few members will learn something new if not at least you've helped bring awareness, which is always a good thing
-------------------- Pull the blinds and change their minds....
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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It would be helpful if you could be specific about what misconceptions and mistakes people have and what the truth is. I would love your opinion. Like what in this thread have you most disagreed with specifically?
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Gorlax



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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe]
#21949790 - 07/15/15 11:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The thing that I have a problem with is the medical aspects. You shouldn't be taking hormones that aren't meant to be in your body at those doses. Care less if your trans just don't make it societies problem. Everyone always wants to be part of some fucking dividing group and it's retarded.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Everyone please go to 1:10:20 and watch until 1:14:45 in the video and listen to an interesting perspective from someone who has gone through the full transition, especially Blindsophist- it might challenge some of your ideas about how transitioning effects those who complete the process.
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Everything I post is fiction.
Edited by Moonshoe (07/15/15 11:38 PM)
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe]
#21950012 - 07/15/15 11:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: Everyone please go to 1:10:20 in the video and listen to an interesting perspective from someone who has gone through the full transition, especially Blindsophist- it might challenge some of your ideas about how transitioning effects those who complete the process.
Before I do any such thing, we're going to have to have a chat about the language you're using.
What do you mean by "full transition"? Are you saying that a trans woman who never surgically alters her genitals is somehow "incomplete" as a woman?
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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All I am saying is you should watch the whole documentary, but definitely at least watch from 1:10:20 to 1:15:00.
All I am asking is for you to watch five minutes of a documentary because I think you would find it interesting and it directly relates to a lot of what you have said.
You have already invested so much time in this thread, and have so much interest in this topic, that I find it hard to understand why you would not want to watch the documentary or at least that little clip of it.
How you got "Are you saying that a trans woman who never surgically alters her genitals is somehow "incomplete" as a woman? " from what I said I have no idea.
As for what I mean by "full transition" it explains that in the first ten seconds of the clip I suggested you watch.
I think everyone who posted in this thread will find that five minute clip extremely interesting and relevant.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe]
#21950054 - 07/15/15 11:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: All I am saying is you should watch the whole documentary, but definitely at least watch from 1:10:20 to 1:15:00.
All I am asking is for you to watch five minutes of a documentary because I think you would find it interesting and it directly relates to a lot of what you have said.
You have already invested so much time in this thread, and have so much interest in this topic, that I find it hard to understand why you would not want to watch the documentary or at least that little clip of it.
My effort in this thread has mostly been expended toward debunking false narratives relating to how trans people experience their gender, and debunking the notion that it would be harmful to begin transition before legal adulthood, using scientific evidence and logical exposition to back up my arguments. I am curious as to how you think this clip relates to what I have said here.
Quote:
How you got "Are you saying that a trans woman who never surgically alters her genitals is somehow "incomplete" as a woman? " from what I said I have no idea.
As for what I mean by "full transition" it explains that in the first ten seconds of the clip I suggested you watch.
I think everyone who posted in this thread will find that five minute clip extremely interesting and relevant.
Why did you pick this particular clip to hold above the rest?
In case you are wondering why I seem reluctant to watch this documentary, it's because I began my medical transition at the age of 27, and had previously experienced over ten years in my "birth gender" with regards to my organic hormones. This was nightmarishly traumatic for me, and deleterious to my health in ways that are still affecting me today, and I could wish for nothing more than to have been assisted by my parents during my teenage years or early adulthood, when I had asked for their help repeatedly. I try not to spend too much time thinking about "what could have been" because I love my parents and I know there's no way to get those lost years back.
Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/16/15 01:48 AM)
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Did you watch the clip?
So you are hesitant to watch the documentary because you would feel jealous of the children in it or it would make you feel more resentful to your parents for not giving you the treatments the kids in the documentary are receiving?
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe]
#21950083 - 07/16/15 12:00 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: Did you watch the clip?
Yes, I did.
Quote:
So you are hesitant to watch the documentary because you would feel jealous of the children in it or it would make you feel more resentful to your parents for not giving you the treatments the kids in the documentary are receiving?
Answer my questions first.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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The only question I saw you ask was
"Why did you pick this particular clip to hold above the rest?"
The reason is because this clip is the only one that shows someone who had all the treatments from a very early age, who is now an adult, reflecting on the experience and the effects from an adult perspective.
That clip very strongly and clearly relates to so much of what was discussed in this thread. I would think it would be fairly clear why I chose it, but the reason again is basically because this is the only account in the documentary from someone who is not seeking or undergoing the treatments as a child, but rather from an adult after having all the treatments, reflecting as an adult on the experience and how it effected them.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Posts: 43,135
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Gorlax]
#21950112 - 07/16/15 12:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: The only question I saw you ask was
"Why did you pick this particular clip to hold above the rest?"
The reason is because this clip is the only one that shows someone who had all the treatments from a very early age, who is now an adult, reflecting on the experience and the effects from an adult perspective.
That clip very strongly and clearly relates to so much of what was discussed in this thread. I would think it would be fairly clear why I chose it, but the reason again is basically because this is the only account in the documentary from someone who is not seeking or undergoing the treatments as a child, but rather from an adult after having all the treatments, reflecting as an adult on the experience and how it effected them.
Okay.
To answer your question, I refer you to the the post before it: I don't like to spend my time thinking about "what could have been". This is, as far as I'm concerned, a waste of time. I don't know very many trans people other than myself, and this makes it inevitable that, watching a documentary about trans people's experiences, I'm going to compare those experiences to my own. Any mature person will tell you that time spent comparing oneself to others is of extremely limited value.
I know from my experiences that kids who need this treatment should get it. I know from the research that kids who need this treatment benefit from it, as it is administered under the present clinical models. I have far less interest in watching this documentary than I do in attacking and silencing the false narratives, and rebutting the flaky science, that are getting propagated in this thread.
Sorry if I have a chip on my shoulder here, but I'll put it away when I stop seeing posts like this:
Quote:
Gorlax said: The thing that I have a problem with is the medical aspects. You shouldn't be taking hormones that aren't meant to be in your body at those doses. Care less if your trans just don't make it societies problem. Everyone always wants to be part of some fucking dividing group and it's retarded.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Asante]
#21950113 - 07/16/15 12:14 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: 6? Fucked UP. Thats the parents wish, not the child's. At age 6 let them crossdress and play around but not hormones that force puberty.
Nobody is given hormones at that young of an age. Usually from age 12-14 they are given blockers. And from age 16 they are allowed hormones if they wish to pursue.
I'd totally let my kids cross dress. Hormones are a serious thing however (I know from having run testosterone and progesterone cycles myself), and they can do a lot of potential damage to your body. Prostate cancer, breast cancer, infertility…. these are serious things that almost none of these transgender children's parents are informed about.
And while I would let my kids cross dress as young children, and take hormone blockers as young teens, I would not let my kids go undergo hormone therapy unless they were REALLY fucking serious about transitioning and they were AT LEAST like 16-18 years old.
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Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
#21950136 - 07/16/15 12:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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And rightfully so.
But mooooommmm I can drink why can't I transition?!?
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Sophistic Radiance
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Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
#21950144 - 07/16/15 12:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crystal G said: Prostate cancer, breast cancer, infertility…. these are serious things that almost none of these transgender children's parents are informed about.
How do you figure? Progressive transgender health care is defined by "informed consent". What is your reason for saying that supportive parents of trans kids don't understand these things?
Oh and by the way, it's a bit more complicated than you say when it comes to cancer risk. For example, I have a higher risk of breast cancer since I have breasts now, but my risk of prostate cancer is virtually nil since I started taking high-dose spironolactone.
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Crystal G



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Posts: 19,584
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Re: Transgender children [Re: zappaisgod]
#21950149 - 07/16/15 12:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
BlindSophist said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Koods is right about gender identity but there is also the issue that their little brains are not mature. No drugs, no surgery until they are at least 18. This is a big decision that needs to be made with calm careful deliberation by a mature person for his/her self. Not their parents. There is no shortage of freakshow idiot parents.
The recommended course of treatment would be androgen blockers for trans girls, estrogen blockers for trans boys, and then start estrogen or testosterone respectively when they turn 18.
They need to wait. I realize that some might suffer but they can straighten that out when they become of age. I do not think children should be making medical decisions
I disagree, I think teens should be perfectly capable of making their own medical decisions. Teenagers of say, age 16 can make the decisions to have abortions on their own without their parents' consent (and rightfully so), they can choose to take birth control pills without parental consent (and I'm glad that they can), they can choose to get vaccines without parental permission, etc.
I think 16 is a good age to allow for hormone therapy if they were truly serious about it. Like, so serious that their world would be destroyed if they couldn't start hormone therapy as immediately as possible.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
#21950162 - 07/16/15 12:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crystal G said: so serious that their world would be destroyed if they couldn't start hormone therapy as immediately as possible.
How do you demonstrate something like that? How would it be established clinically?
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Crystal G]
#21950165 - 07/16/15 12:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlindSophist said:
Quote:
Crystal G said: Prostate cancer, breast cancer, infertility…. these are serious things that almost none of these transgender children's parents are informed about.
How do you figure? Progressive transgender health care is defined by "informed consent". What is your reason for saying that supportive parents of trans kids don't understand these things?
Oh and by the way, it's a bit more complicated than you say when it comes to cancer risk. For example, I have a higher risk of breast cancer since I have breasts now, but my risk of prostate cancer is virtually nil since I started taking high-dose spironolactone.
There was actually a documentary about this on PBS the other day. Some of the critics of these programs talked about how parents were not being informed of the side effects of some of these hormones by the same doctors who offer hormone therapy.
Similar to how egg donation doctors or plastic surgeons rarely ever inform the patients of the TRUTH of potential side-effects and risks that could occur. Or if they are honest about the risks, they try to minimize it as much as possible.
For example, infertility is one of the biggest problems of taking hormones (which can be permanent in some cases), and many people who transition still may desire to have children one day.
I think the future will be very interesting, because I sort of see both sexes becoming more and more unisex over time. I mean there's already a shitload of estrogen in our water supply, which probably contributes to obesity rates in the USA. The change has already been happening for a while now.
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