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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Asante]
    #21924281 - 07/10/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
You have to be 100% sure its a trans child who wants this and not a phase or its extreme child abuse.




Duh. :rolleyes:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21924288 - 07/10/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah yeah you got to show your disapproval of me :smirk:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Asante]
    #21924324 - 07/10/15 12:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Yeah yeah you got to show your disapproval of me :smirk:




I'm wondering how this scenario is playing out in you guys' fevered imagination-- as if such a decision would be "forced" on the kid.

This is something I've noticed throughout this and other conversations about trans youth-- t he assumption that parents enjoy absolute control over their children's inner lives and identities. As if a trans kid could only ever be trans because their parents forced them to be trans. That is not how it works. It just isn't. Anybody who has raised a kid will tell you that kids have their own lives and that there is a limit to the parent's control over what they experience and feel as they grow older and more independent.

In my experience, the vast majority of parents go through vast lengths to limit, stifle, and eliminate any tendency on the part of their kids to break with the gender norms they have been prescribed. In my experience as a trans person who was denied basic care and treatment for such as a child, I came out to my parents as trans, and asked for their help, many, many times before I turned eighteen, and continued to do so well after, to no avail. Likewise, the conversation you guys want to have is not about what can be done to brighten and improve the bleak prospects of trans kids' future lives, but what can be done to punish and inveigh against the insane parents who-- by accepting their children for who they are and providing for the health and happiness of their future lives, as all responsible parents should do-- are supposedly forcing their children to be trans.

I can understand how having an "all-out" reaction to the first coming-out might be seen as overzealous, Kids experiment and question, naturally. That is why therapy should be the foundation of treatment. This would not be seen as an easy decision for anybody, even a "crazy person" like me. It would be the kid's decision and there would be more than adequate safeguards against them making an immature or ill-informed choice.

The fact remains that making this type of therapy available to children is humane and appropriate. And frankly I'm really hurt by the refrain of people begging me not to have a child. I will have children someday, whether you like it or not, and I will care for them to the best of my knowledge and ability, whether they are trans or not.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/10/15 01:23 PM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21924332 - 07/10/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

There's no "them" as an unified force, there are several people with opinions here.

I am on your side but you perceive me as an opponent.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Asante]
    #21924336 - 07/10/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Okay.


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Invisibletrvptamine
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21924558 - 07/10/15 01:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I dont think the parents force them to be trans. I just think before youre an adult you are too young to be trans because there is no way you actually know who you are at that point in life. You still have to go through puberty and such.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: trvptamine]
    #21924581 - 07/10/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trvptamine said:
I dont think the parents force them to be trans. I just think before youre an adult you are too young to be trans because there is no way you actually know who you are at that point in life. You still have to go through puberty and such.




You'd be wrong. :shrug:

Quote:

A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides gender dysphoric youth who seek gender reassignment from early puberty on, the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults.



http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958.abstract

Quote:

The hormone-blocker therapy is part of what researchers call the Dutch model, as it is based on a landmark study published in 2006 on 54 transgender young people in the Netherlands. That study helped to establish the medical safety of the therapy.

Doctors published a long-awaited follow-up to this study in the October 2014 issue of the journal Pediatrics, and found that the mental and physical health of these children were similar to or better than that of same-age youths from the general population.



http://www.livescience.com/50755-transgender-kids-hormone-blocker-puberty.html


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/10/15 01:48 PM)


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21924817 - 07/10/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

you're gonna cherry pick your sources like anyone else.

most peoples personal experience with life seem to differ from yours, and you can't throw such a blanket statement like, "you're wrong" about something so unique to everyone's lives.


Most** people take many many years to find who they are, and I'd argue that you're mislead to believe that you're any different, and never had to go through that.



"it's determined right at birth" is preposterous to me honestly.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
    #21924831 - 07/10/15 02:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

This is the most up-to-date research available, and it assesses present-day standards of care. My second link deals with research published earlier this year.

My opponents resort to decades-old studies which reject outdated clinical models, no longer in use. These studies are essentially irrelevant to the discussion of what is going on today and in the near future. In this thread, they have been taken out of context for the sole purpose of attacking trans kids and their parents. I am not the one cherry-picking anything.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/10/15 02:23 PM)


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 2
    #21924848 - 07/10/15 02:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

this purdue study seems to differ with your "at birth" statement.

Quote:

6-7 years
Before this age, boys might think that they will grow up to be women. Girls might think they will be daddies when they are older. By age 6 or 7 though, most children understand and believe that a person’s gender is constant. They know it will not change throughout life. Most children this age also know that a man is still a man, even if he dresses like a woman.





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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
    #21924858 - 07/10/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.PhilCybin said:
this purdue study seems to differ with your "at birth" statement.

Quote:

6-7 years
Before this age, boys might think that they will grow up to be women. Girls might think they will be daddies when they are older. By age 6 or 7 though, most children understand and believe that a person’s gender is constant. They know it will not change throughout life. Most children this age also know that a man is still a man, even if he dresses like a woman.








You are assuming that gender identity works entirely on the conscious level, which it does not.


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Enlil said:
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InvisibleRan-D
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21924861 - 07/10/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
the gender norms they have been prescribed.




You say this like gender is something society invented to oppress people. I guess nature isn't very open-minded.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Ran-D]
    #21924876 - 07/10/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ran-D said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
the gender norms they have been prescribed.




You say this like gender is something society invented to oppress people. I guess nature isn't very open-minded.




I don't know enough about human evolution to say if gender is something society invented or not. It undeniably has a biological component, but it also seems possible that this biological component was precipitated or reinforced by social norms working through sexual selection over tens of thousands of years.

As I have explained in the other recent thread about gender identity, gender identity itself can be seen in crude terms as a "switch" which is set to male or female in the womb, but that the specific means by which that gender is expressed are inherited from society and upbringing.


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21924878 - 07/10/15 02:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

the very word identity relies on perception, which is a cognitive function.

obviously neurotransmitters play role, but the concept of identity is a cognitive thing.


--------------------
I'm stupid, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is smart.
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I'm a loser, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is a winner.
Someday, I hope to be like Falcon91Wolvrn03 but secretly know I never will.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
    #21924886 - 07/10/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.PhilCybin said:
the very word identity relies on perception, which is a cognitive function.

obviously neurotransmitters play role, but the concept of identity is a cognitive thing.




It is identitified at the cognitive level, but it cannot be seen except by brain scanners which can pinpoint the structural divergences between different-gendered brains. Gender identity correlates with these biological markers, which are essentially invisible without advanced technology.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21925566 - 07/10/15 05:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
My opponents resort to decades-old studies which reject outdated clinical models, no longer in use. These studies are essentially irrelevant to the discussion of what is going on today and in the near future. In this thread, they have been taken out of context for the sole purpose of attacking trans kids and their parents. I am not the one cherry-picking anything.




i hope you aren't referring to me as your opponent.  My original contribution to this thread was to point out that there are similarities between BIID and GID.  I provided loads of data to back it up.  Some of the more recent studies actually corroborated your position that surgery etc. eases the symptoms.  for some reason, you insisted that they are not similar.  I can only assume,(and please correct me if i'm wrong) that you won't admit to the fundamental similarities of the disorders, because you don't want to be compared to some wierdo who wants to have his leg chopped off.


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Re: Transgender children [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #21925577 - 07/10/15 05:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

cognitive dissonance is a bitch


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21925763 - 07/10/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
My opponents resort to decades-old studies which reject outdated clinical models, no longer in use. These studies are essentially irrelevant to the discussion of what is going on today and in the near future. In this thread, they have been taken out of context for the sole purpose of attacking trans kids and their parents. I am not the one cherry-picking anything.




i hope you aren't referring to me as your opponent.  My original contribution to this thread was to point out that there are similarities between BIID and GID.  I provided loads of data to back it up.  Some of the more recent studies actually corroborated your position that surgery etc. eases the symptoms.  for some reason, you insisted that they are not similar.  I can only assume,(and please correct me if i'm wrong) that you won't admit to the fundamental similarities of the disorders, because you don't want to be compared to some wierdo who wants to have his leg chopped off.




I was referring to others (i.e. shroomism and at least one other) who claimed that sex reassignment therapies did more harm than good to transgender patients. Touchy much?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21925773 - 07/10/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

so you're not gonna correct me?


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21925792 - 07/10/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
so you're not gonna correct me?




Correct you on what, precisely? I formed my response based on a quick gloss-over on your post because that's pretty much where I'm at with this thread right now, but I re- and re-re-read it and I'm not finding anything that I would need to correct. I still don't think that gender dysphoria can be related to BIID because it involves so many more dimensions other than merely wishing for the loss of the genitals (such as the need for a different set of genitals and other physical characteristics, the social and identity aspects, etc., i.e. "positive symptoms") but I'm not interested in rehashing this argument yet again.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/10/15 07:22 PM)


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