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Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
Re: Transgender children [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21915993 - 07/08/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

social security and healthcare aren't welfare. and those are federal programs. i'm talking about state spending because the state handles welfare, roads and education, with the latter two being the top two things that taxes go to.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
Master Baiter
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/13/11
Posts: 11,642
Loc: Gnarnia
Re: Transgender children [Re: millzy]
    #21915999 - 07/08/15 05:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

Mr.PhilCybin said:
I agree 100%.


I've been paying taxes for over 10 years and never once used any kind of gov. assistance, nor do I plan or want to.  (I guess I'd like to get school grants down the line, but school should be payed for by our tax dollars instead of getting our grubby fingers in every corner of the planet anyways IMO)
the worst part is, chances are pretty good i'll never see a penny of all the social security dollars they steal from me every week.:nonono:

there's lot of bullshit in the world :shrug:  especially in our country it seems.




wow, a whole ten years. props old timer. :lol:

you may haven't had to use the social safety net, but i would wager that you've used roads and attended public school. you know, the two main things the gub'ment uses your tax dollars for.





:lolsy:




yeah right.  look at military spending.


yeah, I'm young, and I use roads and went to school.  but most roads are paid for by taxes on oil, tires, vehicles, etc.


--------------------
I'm stupid, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is smart.
I'm ugly, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is beautiful.
I'm a loser, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is a winner.
Someday, I hope to be like Falcon91Wolvrn03 but secretly know I never will.


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OfflineIhateyou
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Re: Transgender children [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916005 - 07/08/15 05:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Did you know that snotty rich kids also go to jail?  This is the worst justification for the welfare state ever.  Disadvantaged?  Maybe if we weren't paying slunks to have mugwumps there wouldn't be so many mugwumps in the first place.



Maybe if those "slunks" had an equal opportunity to become successful there would be less "mugwumps" and before you say there's equal opportunity you might want to take a tour of the public education system in some of those places and see what those youths go through.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Transgender children [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
    #21916010 - 07/08/15 05:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.PhilCybin said:






:lolsy:




yeah right.  look at military spending.


yeah, I'm young, and I use roads and went to school.  but most roads are paid for by taxes on oil, tires, vehicles, etc.




That's the only smart thing you said recently

Military spending is insane, and often like 70% of all taxes budgets / state budget


If we didn't use military, we would have food for everyone in africa and we would be on mars now
also every elderly person could get proper meals, our schools would be much better - more teachers

any thing we want


But instead we use it on bombs and fighter jets, each one costing a billion $

You could feed all the homeless so they dont die of hunger for just one fighter jet...


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
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Re: Transgender children [Re: lessismore]
    #21916047 - 07/08/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

you could put everyone through school without the crippling debt, making our country catch up in literacy rates, math, etc.

there's literally thousands of other uses that money that could be much better spent on.


yeah, I was brash earlier, but I'm tired of watching people tout around here like they're the absolute authority over certain subjects, and throwing around completely bogus claims.


my patience and tact was low today I admit.


--------------------
I'm stupid, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is smart.
I'm ugly, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is beautiful.
I'm a loser, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is a winner.
Someday, I hope to be like Falcon91Wolvrn03 but secretly know I never will.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Transgender children [Re: millzy]
    #21916054 - 07/08/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
social security and healthcare aren't welfare. and those are federal programs. i'm talking about state spending because the state handles welfare, roads and education, with the latter two being the top two things that taxes go to.




Education is probably by far the larger of the two and they are fucking it up to a fare thee well.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Registered: 05/12/10
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Re: Transgender children [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21916064 - 07/08/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

no argument there.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Ihateyou]
    #21916077 - 07/08/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ihateyou said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Did you know that snotty rich kids also go to jail?  This is the worst justification for the welfare state ever.  Disadvantaged?  Maybe if we weren't paying slunks to have mugwumps there wouldn't be so many mugwumps in the first place.



Maybe if those "slunks" had an equal opportunity to become successful there would be less "mugwumps" and before you say there's equal opportunity you might want to take a tour of the public education system in some of those places and see what those youths go through.




Their education is a result of the fact that their parents are stupid slunks.  They go through shit because their communities and parents are shit.  Where does this point to me?  If I went there and slanged down some tough love I would be run out of town on a rail.  No amount of money will fix their attitude and it is in fact harmful and enabling that we keep shoveling money to these slunks and their mugwumps.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Transgender children [Re: millzy] * 4
    #21916110 - 07/08/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Trans people are not "confused". Research shows that we know very early, and that we benefit very early from these treatments. Frankly, it's inhumane to withhold needed medicine from children saying they need to "figure the world out" before they can be healthy.




Quote:


For example, give somebody with anorexia an appetite suppressant and they will not get better, they will get worse, because they do not seek to be healthy, they seek to alleviate a distorted self-image. Give a trans woman anti androgens and estrogen, and they get better.




Quote:


A kid assigned male who says she's supposed to be female is not "confused". Ever. She is in need of support, guidance, and antiandrogens.




If this is true, then how do you explain this?

Quote:

The insanity of hormone blockers for kids

One controversial treatment for children with gender dysphoria is the administration of drugs called hormone blockers to delay puberty. The practice is gaining traction without any scientific proof that it is appropriate or effective, and despite the evidence that it can be harmful:

    Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty. [1]
    The FDA has not approved hormone blockers for use in transgender children—not even for experimental use.
    A search for one hormone blocker, Lupron, shows that people are reporting serious long-term, debilitating side effects from having used the drug.

Given these facts, why would anyone inject these drugs into children?

Doctors and parents want to help the child cope with the distress he or she is experiencing. Is relief of adolescent distress really worth the risk?

Most will grow out of the dysphoria. Isn't there some way to work through the distress than experimenting on our children?
[1] J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 2008 Dec;47(12):1413-23. doi: 10.1097/CHI.0b013e31818956b9., "Psychosexual outcome of gender-dysphoric children", Wallien MS, Cohen-Kettenis PT., Department of Medical Psychology, Graduate School of Neurosciences, VU University Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands

CONCLUSIONS:
Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty. Children with persistent GID are characterized by more extreme gender dysphoria in childhood than children with desisting gender dysphoria. With regard to sexual orientation, the most likely outcome of childhood GID is homosexuality or bisexuality.






Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Body dysmorphia isn't related to gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria responds to treatment. Its sufferers get better when they are put on hormones and have genital surgery.




Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Both maladies can cause anxiety, depression, impaired social functioning. For trans people, transitioning resolves these issues quickly and effectively. For body dysmorphic people, these problems get worse and worse the more one tries to alleviate the perceived problem.




Quote:

millzy said:
that would be false equivalence. removing a limb would reduce health by creating a functional impairment (i.e. having one less limb) whereas medically intervening on behalf of a transgendering patient would increase functionality by most likely improving their mental health.




If this is true, how do you explain this?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Quote:

CONTEXT:

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment.

OBJECTIVE:
To estimate mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons.

DESIGN:
A population-based matched cohort study.

SETTING:
Sweden, 1973-2003.

PARTICIPANTS:
All 324 sex-reassigned persons (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) in Sweden, 1973-2003. Random population controls (10:1) were matched by birth year and birth sex or reassigned (final) sex, respectively.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Hazard ratios (HR) with 95% confidence intervals (CI) for mortality and psychiatric morbidity were obtained with Cox regression models, which were adjusted for immigrant status and psychiatric morbidity prior to sex reassignment (adjusted HR [aHR]).

RESULTS:
The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8-4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8-62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9-8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0-3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

CONCLUSIONS:
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group




http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth
http://www.baltimorestyle.com/index.php/style/features_article/fe_sexchange_jf07
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/question.html
http://lvtgw.jadephoenix.org/Info_htm/Herbal_G/ginko_b2.htm

Why do more than a fifth of people regret getting gender reassignment surgery if no one is EVER confused about what sex they are?
Why do trans people have a significantly higher rate of suicide after gender reassignment surgery than the rest of the population, if that and hormones fixes their problem?
Why did Johns Hopkin's hospital.. the pioneer in gender reassignment surgery.. stop doing it completely after they saw the long term results?

I'm not poking fun or anything. But these are serious questions to very real issues. Not everyone is so sure.. apparently.
I don't think it's so black and white as "any child who was born as a boy who says they are a girl or vica versa is never ever confused".
Apparently most of them are, according to the first study. Both are long term studies.
I am quite sure it's very real for many trans people. I won't deny that. But to say that everyone who associates as trans or has gender dysphoria gets better with "proper" treatment.. well.. no.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Shroomism]
    #21916294 - 07/08/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

My main concern is that early, reversible treatment be available to people who demonstrate a need for it through therapy. That has been my position throughout this thread. If they have changed their minds by 18 they can simply discontinue their treatment and go through puberty.

Also, lupron wouldn't be the ideal anti-androgen for reversible therapy, since it works long-term by directly disabling the testicles. something taken daily, which works indirectly by suppressing testosterone like spironolactone, would be immediately reversible upon discontinuation.

Finally, your sources are cherry picked. The first one you quoted is clearly written from a strong anti-trans position. A level-headed analysis of risk-benefit ratios would not involve words like "insanity". Second, Sweden's standard of care for trans people is notoriously shitty. Patients do not have the opportunity to seek second opinions and candidates are selected on an extremely narrow basis after years of being juggled by the gatekeeper system. Scandinavia does not provide high access to good preliminary care for trans people and their shoddy treatment by the medical system is probably a confounding factor in the study you cited. It's also using data that is all at least twelve years old and up to forty years old. Standards of care have improved a lot in many countries, but considering the state of Sweden today God only knows what they were doing back then.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Sophistic Radiance (07/08/15 06:44 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21916309 - 07/08/15 06:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

all i was saying is that wanting to have your limbs amputated is a different scenario than wanting to transgender. that would seem to be self evident, but this is the shroomery.


--------------------
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Invisibletrvptamine
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Registered: 07/06/15
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Moonshoe] * 2
    #21916336 - 07/08/15 06:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Young kids should definitely not be able to have a sex change. they arent even old enough to know who they really are yet


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #21916864 - 07/08/15 08:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
My main concern is that early, reversible treatment be available to people who demonstrate a need for it through therapy. That has been my position throughout this thread. If they have changed their minds by 18 they can simply discontinue their treatment and go through puberty.

Also, lupron wouldn't be the ideal anti-androgen for reversible therapy, since it works long-term by directly disabling the testicles. something taken daily, which works indirectly by suppressing testosterone like spironolactone, would be immediately reversible upon discontinuation.

Finally, your sources are cherry picked. The first one you quoted is clearly written from a strong anti-trans position. A level-headed analysis of risk-benefit ratios would not involve words like "insanity". Second, Sweden's standard of care for trans people is notoriously shitty. Patients do not have the opportunity to seek second opinions and candidates are selected on an extremely narrow basis after years of being juggled by the gatekeeper system. Scandinavia does not provide high access to good preliminary care for trans people and their shoddy treatment by the medical system is probably a confounding factor in the study you cited. It's also using data that is all at least twelve years old and up to forty years old. Standards of care have improved a lot in many countries, but considering the state of Sweden today God only knows what they were doing back then.




I've seen on youtube a ton of guys that are doing transgender to be females now

saw it in the news somewhere, there are like 1000 videos of it, with people who want to change sex and buy hormones to grow breasts and change face/voice with it


Thats a real risk, people with unstable self identity changing sex
Just like they change hair color to fit in, dress in gothic clothing to fit in etc.


The new style is being a kid forever, with new voice and breasts / no breasts


In the future every girl/guy with low self esteem may try it out, just like they do steroids sometimes


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Transgender children [Re: lessismore]
    #21916875 - 07/08/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

And low selfesteem = every person who ever goes through puberty....

So all of humankind are potential candidates?;-)


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OfflineAdolin
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 2
    #21916890 - 07/08/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
My main concern is that early, reversible treatment be available to people who demonstrate a need for it through therapy.





what makes you thing that hormone blockers are "reversible"? thats like saying you can reverse time.

those years a child could have spent becoming a man, are instead spent on years of confusion and time-wasting.


you cannot get the years of your puberty back. puberty blockers are not reversible. humanity has not yet discovered how to travel in time.


hormone blockers will changed a childs life, forever. and it is irrevocable.


Edited by Adolin (07/08/15 08:42 PM)


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Transgender children [Re: lessismore]
    #21916893 - 07/08/15 08:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Im only for this if we can prove with MRI  scan that the person has deformity in the Sex-in-brain organ , or via a DNA test


So only people with real deformities, who think they're another sex trapped, can get it

Else everyone will start getting it... , it may also give cancer some of these drugs as they stimulate breasts i.e.


Steroids has some cancer risks too, some steroid drugs used today, but still very popular


So my suggestions are these 2.
- 1. person over 25 years old , they can get it if they pay themselves (is relatively cheap we heard)
- 2. people at any age, if they have brain abnormality on MRI / dna marker


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: Transgender children [Re: millzy]
    #21920701 - 07/09/15 04:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.PhilCybin said:
and please, tell me how feeding kids hormonal drugs is different than feeding them other mid altering drugs.




Same way any alternation is best noticed early in childhood before it exercabates as adult. Because yes, sign me up for ridicule, rejection, unemployment, having to constantly watch my back, not to mention medical bills, electrolysis, therapy, surgeries, legal bills and endless name change hassles.
Its very fun being an adult.

If one can be "made" to be transgender, then why is it that conversion therapy doesn't ever work?  You'd think that if you could flip the switch once, you should be able to flip it back.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Adolin]
    #21921401 - 07/09/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gresh said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
My main concern is that early, reversible treatment be available to people who demonstrate a need for it through therapy.





what makes you thing that hormone blockers are "reversible"? thats like saying you can reverse time.

those years a child could have spent becoming a man, are instead spent on years of confusion and time-wasting.


you cannot get the years of your puberty back. puberty blockers are not reversible. humanity has not yet discovered how to travel in time.


hormone blockers will changed a childs life, forever. and it is irrevocable.




Are you saying that late bloomers are somehow incomplete? That a boy who hits puberty at 18 can never be a man? :facepalm:

Puberty is puberty, even if it happens at 18, and puberty blockers with a short-term mechanism of action are fully reversible, period. Those "years of confusion and time-wasting" have the potential to save trans people's lives and the therapy should be available.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineAdolin
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 2
    #21921488 - 07/09/15 07:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Quote:

Gresh said:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
My main concern is that early, reversible treatment be available to people who demonstrate a need for it through therapy.





what makes you thing that hormone blockers are "reversible"? thats like saying you can reverse time.

those years a child could have spent becoming a man, are instead spent on years of confusion and time-wasting.


you cannot get the years of your puberty back. puberty blockers are not reversible. humanity has not yet discovered how to travel in time.


hormone blockers will changed a childs life, forever. and it is irrevocable.




Are you saying that late bloomers are somehow incomplete? That a boy who hits puberty at 18 can never be a man? :facepalm:





No, if someone is a 'late bloomer' it is because of genetics (or possibly environment'

i am saying that stunting a childs growth hormones will change heir life forever


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OfflineAdolin
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Re: Transgender children [Re: Adolin] * 1
    #21921492 - 07/09/15 07:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

it is an irrevocable decision.


children will never recover those years they could have been becoming a man or woman.

hormone blockers Are NOT reversible

And time travel does not yet exist


Edited by Adolin (07/09/15 07:33 PM)


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