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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: koods]
    #21909525 - 07/07/15 12:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Using force to enact their desired social changes, renders the forcers no better morally than the forcees.

Plus, it feeds the hatred of those forced. Laws like that might get you your cake, but it makes the problem worse.




These laws exist because discrimination happens. Yah, maybe it's easy to find another bakery. But, what if every bakery doesn't want to serve gays. What if a restaurant doesn't let black people in. Unfortunately, the free market does not solve every problem and without legal recourse, there can be (and have been) situations where entire groups of people are essentially second class citizens.




That doesn't change a word of what I said.

I despise bigots, homophobes, sexists and racists. I despise those who use force on them.

Your examples don't change the fact that force isn't the way.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: SunnyD]
    #21909529 - 07/07/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

AddyZomeD said:
Damn,
I am always surprised how troubled most peoples minds are with petty shit,
how conflicted peoples minds are, to have a problem with anyone who isn't negatively effected you life,


I just find it so petty,



yeah, it's sick.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21909532 - 07/07/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
what about the fact that this absurd religious dogma is encased in our culture seemingly in stone, and that gays and lesbians have no dogma and simply have no other choice to stand up for themselves, and can't rely on anyone else to help them but their own sexes and genders (a terrible syndicate of coalition's to even deal with from the inside, let alone from the perspective held on them already in society); how can that be solved? time? how can time erase dogma?




The old dogs die off. In the meantime, not having these absurd laws removes one of the legs the forcees are standing on.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21909544 - 07/07/15 12:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well, as far as I know, gay people didn't have a lot of trouble getting cakes until recently, so in some ways we are regressing.

Read the court order. The people who own the bakery not only refused service AFTER the gay couple had arranged to have the cake made, they bakery then went public stating that they do not serve gay people. One of the bakery owners told one of the gay customers "your children are an abomination."

http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pages/press/Sweet%20Cakes%20FO.pdf


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21909548 - 07/07/15 12:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

maybe there is a time for the laws to change. but this has all resulted from desperation. i don't understand how people cannot understand this concept. the pure misanthropy to people by idiot's because of their insanity and their stupidity has done it's damage.

but as i said, perhaps the time is coming for the laws to change. since the playing field is more equal now.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: koods]
    #21909549 - 07/07/15 12:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So what? They should be free to serve who they wish and to not serve those who they don't wish.

Those who are disgusted by their behavior are free to not give their money to homophobes.

Why would you be in favor of giving money/support to assholes?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: koods]
    #21909551 - 07/07/15 12:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Well, as far as I know, gay people didn't have a lot of trouble getting cakes until recently, so in some ways we are regressing.

Read the court order. The people who own the bakery not only refused service AFTER the gay couple had arranged to have the cake made, they bakery then went public stating that they do not serve gay people. One of the bakery owners told one of the gay customers "your children are an abomination."

http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pages/press/Sweet%20Cakes%20FO.pdf



yeah that's my main point. it's pure stupidity, and then moreso, they're agreement was in place...they didn't follow through. there is a civil case already, regardless of gay anything or no.

then that tidbit is very telling as well. that frame of mind is certainly abominable. like their brain's have been drilled hole's in.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21909552 - 07/07/15 12:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
maybe there is a time for the laws to change. but this has all resulted from desperation. i don't understand how people cannot understand this concept. the pure misanthropy to people by idiot's because of their insanity and their stupidity has done it's damage.

but as i said, perhaps the time is coming for the laws to change. since the playing field is more equal now.




No, this has resulted from force. People don't like being told what to do. A lesson the government has yet to learn.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21909571 - 07/07/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
So what? They should be free to serve who they wish and to not serve those who they don't wish.

Those who are disgusted by their behavior are free to not give their money to homophobes.

Why would you be in favor of giving money/support to assholes?



but under an agreement they were obliged to make the cake...they should have made the cake and swallowed their pride.

did they at least pay them back, i wonder.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21909606 - 07/07/15 12:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:

No, this has resulted from force. People don't like being told what to do. A lesson the government has yet to learn.



sure, it's force, it's reckless. but they had to subsist by force during much of modern society and then some...so even without going further back than even 60 years ago, there has been some form or another of force. this is a backlash, and i should say it grows, i think, with the backlash from the people whom are clearly misinformed about reality and are bigoted. because it's a war against each other, essentially.

there is animosity there.

i'm not saying it's right, i'm just explaining it's occurrence. sure it's force, no one likes it, that's why both sides are defending one another.

these conversation's about "freedom" already always end up in a tail spin if you try and justify the concept as universal, but then try and put into terms for two warring coalition's.


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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21909607 - 07/07/15 12:48 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

This case is not about a wedding cake or a marriage. It is about a business’s refusal to serve someone because of their sexual orientation. Under Oregon law, that is illegal.

Within Oregon’s public accommodations law is the basic principle of human decency that every person, regardless of their sexual orientation, has the freedom to fully participate in society. The ability to enter public places, to shop, to dine, to move about unfettered by bigotry.




These laws have been around for decades, and are ubiquitous. The business owners were well aware of the law, and they decided that they were above the law. They insist that their religion gives them a special privilege to discriminate.

These law do exist to force bigoted people from discriminating. They exist because there have been times and places where discrimination was part of the culture and without legal force, change would be slow and remedy would be delayed.

If the business owners didn't like the laws that protect gay people, they can move to a state that doesn't have them. there's your freedom.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: koods]
    #21909629 - 07/07/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

None of which changes a word I said.

Force has merely made the problem worse and driven hatred deeper into people.

It has had the opposite of your desired result.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21909637 - 07/07/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

point goes to luv.

it was not the intended result, i don't think. i think there needs to be thinking done on both sides of the issue, to be perfectly honest.


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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #21909648 - 07/07/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

What if the couple were straight but black.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21909657 - 07/07/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
point goes to luv.

it was not the intended result, i don't think. i think there needs to be thinking done on both sides of the issue, to be perfectly honest.




Of course it wasn't the intended result. I don't doubt that those who passed such stupid laws truly believed they were doing the right (or best) thing.

Yet the unintended result was the result they got. It has made things worse.

As long as laws like that exist, it will continue to get worse and people will continue giving their money to closeted bigots.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: koods]
    #21909667 - 07/07/15 01:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

well, he's stated it enough, i think it's well said: it doesn't change what word's he's used. but look, if it was a black couple, it'd get a similar reaction in Oregon, let's face it; it'll be the same outlash pretty much. different parties though. so how'd that change anything about the backlash, from not just the origin of the impropriety but also the after affects: in other words does the punishment here fit the crime?

that's what i think other people are perhaps pointing to as well, but Luv's point is that either way you're getting a worse result unless segregation become's simply outdated, although i'm paraphrasing. because that with that plan you can expect the least amount of damage i think is his point.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21909669 - 07/07/15 01:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:

Of course it wasn't the intended result. I don't doubt that those who passed such stupid laws truly believed they were doing the right (or best) thing.

Yet the unintended result was the result they got. It has made things worse.

As long as laws like that exist, it will continue to get worse and people will continue giving their money to closeted bigots.



do you really think? simply witnessing their bereft emptyheadedness about reality does not really engage people's purport's about their culture's view's on homosexuality.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21909691 - 07/07/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:

Of course it wasn't the intended result. I don't doubt that those who passed such stupid laws truly believed they were doing the right (or best) thing.

Yet the unintended result was the result they got. It has made things worse.

As long as laws like that exist, it will continue to get worse and people will continue giving their money to closeted bigots.



do you really think?




If I say it, I believe it.


Quote:

simply witnessing their bereft emptyheadedness about reality does not really engage people's purport's about their culture's view's on homosexuality.




The bigots, racists, sexists and homophobes are empty headed. So are those that thought/think they can force others to not be bigots, racists, sexists and homophobes.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21909699 - 07/07/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

well i am trying to see all sides on this issue to the best of my ability, and i can see nothing but absurdity so maybe you're right, there's nothing that can done save fending off idiocy.

but that is a good combination of categories there, what shall we call those emptyheaded who thought/think they can force others not to be those things?


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Re: Federal vs. Oregon...GAYS! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21909703 - 07/07/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
well, he's stated it enough, i think it's well said: it doesn't change what word's he's used. but look, if it was a black couple, it'd get a similar reaction in Oregon, let's face it; it'll be the same outlash pretty much. different parties though. so how'd that change anything about the backlash, from not just the origin of the impropriety but also the after affects: in other words does the punishment here fit the crime?

that's what i think other people are perhaps pointing to as well, but Luv's point is that either way you're getting a worse result unless segregation become's simply outdated, although i'm paraphrasing. because that with that plan you can expect the least amount of damage i think is his point.




How are you getting a worse result? Fact not in evidence. Seems like the message has been sent that you can't discriminate against gay people in Oregon. I doubt black people in the south feel like finally being allowed to sit where they wish on a bus, or a restaurant was a worse result than the status quo which existed until these laws FORCED businesses to serve them.

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:

Of course it wasn't the intended result. I don't doubt that those who passed such stupid laws truly believed they were doing the right (or best) thing.

Yet the unintended result was the result they got. It has made things worse.

As long as laws like that exist, it will continue to get worse and people will continue giving their money to closeted bigots.



do you really think?




If I say it, I believe it.


Quote:

simply witnessing their bereft emptyheadedness about reality does not really engage people's purport's about their culture's view's on homosexuality.




The bigots, racists, sexists and homophobes are empty headed. So are those that thought/think they can force others to not be bigots, racists, sexists and homophobes.




They are welcome to still be bigots, they just can't act upon their beliefs if it means denying someone a service.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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