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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: koods] 1
#21904853 - 07/06/15 10:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Private equity was once again at the center of the European crisis. Lending at ridiculously low rates to take advantage of people who just wanted a piece of the dream.
1. Increase lending 2. Let bubble burst 3. Pull credit 4. Buy up everything for pennies on the dollar
Extra credit: get the same public you just screwed over to give you trillions and tell them to be grateful for it.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21904857 - 07/06/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Credit Is good. Unregulated credit is very bad.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: koods]
#21904860 - 07/06/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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^Ya. The idea is that money should be lent to people who will use that money to generate revenues that exceed the interest rate, so the borrow can pay the interest AND make a profit for themselves. The model has flaws in it, and it can be abused to everyone's detriment, but if you look at the history, credit actually evolved before currency did. That's because credit is necessary for economic function.
Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/06/15 10:39 AM)
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21904866 - 07/06/15 10:40 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Without credit, it is very difficult for an economy to grow. It is very hard to create value.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: koods]
#21904882 - 07/06/15 10:46 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Interest on borrowed money is a newer idea though, and it's value is less clear to me. I guess it allows for higher levels of organisation to better manage credit on a larger scale, but it also creates a lot more potential for credit be abused. I'm guessing we'll get it figured out a little better over the next few centuries.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ

Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Srirachi]
#21904922 - 07/06/15 11:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Srirachi said: I don't know how you do it, Pris. I'd be so banned...
I'm out. I'm going to go make some money instead of argue with people that believe paying interest is a good way to get rich.
you're just gonna go an "make it" eh? just magic, poof! money!
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Vsnares.Zappa
bend over


Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 3,153
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: akira_akuma]
#21905004 - 07/06/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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op has no understanding whatsoever of the greek situation. or he just made the title so it would stir up his thread.
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Vsnares.Zappa]
#21905017 - 07/06/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Patlal is usually better informed and wiser than this with his political and economic topics. Maybe he's becoming an American.
Edited by Mr.GuessWork (07/06/15 11:42 AM)
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Vsnares.Zappa] 1
#21905030 - 07/06/15 11:46 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't know why people are bashing austerity so much. It's actually the RIGHT thing to do BY FAR.
If anyone bothered to look at the numbers you would realize that the EU and the US had practically the same growth rebound. The ony difference is that the US endebte itself madly to get the same results.
In 2012, the EU suffered because of Spain, Greece and France but it only knocked off 1% growth compared to the US.
Whoever says that spending money you don't have is the best way to get out of debt is mad.
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ipraytomushrooms
Romper Room Philosopher



Registered: 10/12/14
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Patlal]
#21905041 - 07/06/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
Whoever says that spending money you don't have is the best way to get out of debt is mad.
No one ever said that.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 6 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#21905063 - 07/06/15 11:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Patlal said: There is only one solution for Greece and its called austerity. Massive cuts in order to bring back its economy.
They voted no...
Now Germany is pissed off because these assholes wont take responsibility for their own stupid decisions.
Instead they seem to be counting on a bailout from other countries or something... Assholes
What do you think of that attitude?
I
Give me one example where austerity has ever worked. Even the bankers have admitted it's not a solution.
Easier for the banks to blame the populace for their fuckups though
Bankers will never back austerity, dod you know why? Because they are the one's lending money with interest. When the government isn't spending more than it has, banks don't make money. The bread and butter of every bank on earth is debt.
Example 1: Canada.
After the bailout of 2009 (which was forced on us because the US did it first), the Conservative spent next to nothing every single year. No fancy multibillion dollar projects. Instead the paid the deficit year after year and lowered taxes everywhere. Guess what happened? Canada is in better shape than every other country and is attracting businesses from all over due to the lowest business tax rate (ever I believe). Sure it's not Greek austerity since we were better from the start but still, no spending, eliminate the deficit, lower taxes, attract businesses, people have more cash in their pockets.
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger

Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Patlal]
#21905073 - 07/06/15 12:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: I don't know why people are bashing austerity so much. It's actually the RIGHT thing to do BY FAR.
If anyone bothered to look at the numbers you would realize that the EU and the US had practically the same growth rebound. The ony difference is that the US endebte itself madly to get the same results.
In 2012, the EU suffered because of Spain, Greece and France but it only knocked off 1% growth compared to the US.
Whoever says that spending money you don't have is the best way to get out of debt is mad.
Austerity seems to have been working well for Greece, huh?
You need to use a bigger sample to get the right answer out of that argument you made. I'm pretty sure that the link I posted before referred to a study that was done on most of the countries world wide (at least all the major ones), and it showed that government spending works overall. I'm pretty sure there's a large body of evidence to support that. Did you know that the fraudulent study that was used to support austerity for Greece excluded economic data from Canada (among other major countries like Australia) to arrive at their bogus conclusion.
Spending money you don't have when you haven't got enough money to run the country is probably the only way to get out of debt. Economic growth requires investment.
Quote:
Patlal said: I don't know why people are bashing austerity so much. It's actually the RIGHT thing to do BY FAR.
And why is it a good idea? Sure it's good for the EU in the short term, but it totally fucks Greece. They're way better off with the deal from Russia.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,059
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Patlal]
#21905098 - 07/06/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Patlal said: There is only one solution for Greece and its called austerity. Massive cuts in order to bring back its economy.
They voted no...
Now Germany is pissed off because these assholes wont take responsibility for their own stupid decisions.
Instead they seem to be counting on a bailout from other countries or something... Assholes
What do you think of that attitude?
I
Give me one example where austerity has ever worked. Even the bankers have admitted it's not a solution.
Easier for the banks to blame the populace for their fuckups though
Bankers will never back austerity, dod you know why? Because they are the one's lending money with interest. When the government isn't spending more than it has, banks don't make money. The bread and butter of every bank on earth is debt.
Example 1: Canada.
After the bailout of 2009 (which was forced on us because the US did it first), the Conservative spent next to nothing every single year. No fancy multibillion dollar projects. Instead the paid the deficit year after year and lowered taxes everywhere. Guess what happened? Canada is in better shape than every other country and is attracting businesses from all over due to the lowest business tax rate (ever I believe). Sure it's not Greek austerity since we were better from the start but still, no spending, eliminate the deficit, lower taxes, attract businesses, people have more cash in their pockets.
Canada economy improved because of the oil boom, and now it is suffering becasue of the bust.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Patlal] 1
#21905109 - 07/06/15 12:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Maybe they can pay them back in gyros and dolmas. And if they'd quit smashing all their plates, they would probably be a lot better off economically.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: koods]
#21905112 - 07/06/15 12:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Whether you like it or not, government spending has proven to be the best way to recover from economic downturns.
Wrong all it does is postpone the downturn until later, also making it worse.
this is so obvious even a liberal should get it.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 6 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21905120 - 07/06/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I totally agree that economic growth requires investment
The problem is that it takes yearrs for investments to pay for themselves and turn a profit. Greece needs money NOW, not in 10 years when the investment starts paying off. Therefore if they would "invest" themselves to death before they saw profit if there is a profit left to have in the end...
The problem with Greece is time. They have none. Had they foresaw the problem 15 years ago (which I'm sure economists did) and invested for the future then, maybe it would have paid off. They clearly didn't. Instead, the Greeks get a 13th and 14th month pay. They literally had bonues for showing to work and some public servant could retire with a pension in their 40s... At some point, you have to live in reality too.
Also, nobody is better off with Russia
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21905121 - 07/06/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.GuessWork said: I don't understand the intricacies of the better plans, but observational evidence supports the idea that austerity clearly doesn't work.
No amount of austerity can get greece, or anyone out of the debt holes they are in, but borrowing infinite amounts of money won't work either. Greece's creditors has now cut greece off, so that is no longer an option.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,059
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 28 minutes
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Shins]
#21905126 - 07/06/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
Quote:
koods said: Whether you like it or not, government spending has proven to be the best way to recover from economic downturns.
Wrong all it does is postpone the downturn until later, also making it worse.
this is so obvious even a liberal should get it.
History proves you wrong
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 6 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: koods]
#21905129 - 07/06/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Patlal said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Patlal said: There is only one solution for Greece and its called austerity. Massive cuts in order to bring back its economy.
They voted no...
Now Germany is pissed off because these assholes wont take responsibility for their own stupid decisions.
Instead they seem to be counting on a bailout from other countries or something... Assholes
What do you think of that attitude?
I
Give me one example where austerity has ever worked. Even the bankers have admitted it's not a solution.
Easier for the banks to blame the populace for their fuckups though
Bankers will never back austerity, dod you know why? Because they are the one's lending money with interest. When the government isn't spending more than it has, banks don't make money. The bread and butter of every bank on earth is debt.
Example 1: Canada.
After the bailout of 2009 (which was forced on us because the US did it first), the Conservative spent next to nothing every single year. No fancy multibillion dollar projects. Instead the paid the deficit year after year and lowered taxes everywhere. Guess what happened? Canada is in better shape than every other country and is attracting businesses from all over due to the lowest business tax rate (ever I believe). Sure it's not Greek austerity since we were better from the start but still, no spending, eliminate the deficit, lower taxes, attract businesses, people have more cash in their pockets.
Canada economy improved because of the oil boom, and now it is suffering becasue of the bust.
Oil is barely 5% of the Canadian economy
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Greece refuses to take responsibility of their fuck up [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21905132 - 07/06/15 12:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.GuessWork said:
Quote:
koods said: Whether you like it or not, government spending has proven to be the best way to recover from economic downturns.
It's kind of like giving oxygen to a person who can't breathe well. When they recover they can breath on their own again. When you withhold oxygen, the person either dies or develops chronic problems that end up causing more problems for everybody else in the long run.
Your analogy fails because the economy nevr did, and never will breathe on its own again. It is on constant life support and is requiring more and more even just to stay alive then.
a better analogy is that giving heroin to a heroin addict makes them better for the time being, but unless you constantly keep injecting heroin the economy will experience withdrawal. If you don't stop, tolerance will keep building until an OD.
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