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kibblesnibble
ambitious learner



Registered: 06/28/15
Posts: 8
Loc: 'murica
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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best substrate?
#21903353 - 07/05/15 11:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I am starting my first grow and decided to go with a monotub. i am thinking about using a coir/verm substrate but i am very new to all of this so any advice of other substrates that might be better or easier for a beginner
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
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FOTTSE
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YaMoonSun
The Double Standard


Registered: 10/23/14
Posts: 3,967
Loc: NY
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: best substrate? [Re: azur]
#21903422 - 07/05/15 11:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Any experience with agar? A monotub without an agar transfer has a pretty large risk of contaminates. I'd recommend the classic PF Tek, brown rice flour and vermiculite.
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SteveRogers
gandy dancer


Registered: 10/24/06
Posts: 3,450
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Re: best substrate? [Re: azur]
#21903431 - 07/05/15 11:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
azur said: FOTTSE
yep. At least his first post wasn't about dealer shrooms...... OP I do commend you on going bulk out of the gate instead of tiptoeing through the tulips with BRF cakes. Read Moar. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17897163#17897163
-------------------- "General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"
Edited by SteveRogers (07/05/15 11:30 PM)
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: best substrate? [Re: azur]
#21903437 - 07/05/15 11:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
azur said: FOTTSE
-------------------- Fail to plan and you plan to fail. Enter the Ban Lottery
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: best substrate? [Re: Buck513]
#21903454 - 07/05/15 11:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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IMO dealer grade shrooms are only achieved by growing them via hydroponics
-------------------- Fail to plan and you plan to fail. Enter the Ban Lottery
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kibblesnibble
ambitious learner



Registered: 06/28/15
Posts: 8
Loc: 'murica
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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No experience with agar, and where is there a big possibility for contam even with sterilized substrate and proper sterile procedure with inoculation?
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kibblesnibble
ambitious learner



Registered: 06/28/15
Posts: 8
Loc: 'murica
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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yeah i wasnt going to mess around with what seems like about the same amount of work for smaller yields. and i was planning on following following http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19792837 after reading up heavily for a few weeks. seems like a good tek.
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OPB
Wanderer

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 198
Last seen: 2 years, 10 days
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The problem with doing bulk without agar is that spore syringes are almost always contaminated. In PF it is often not a problem but with grain contams tend to spread faster.
-------------------- "Wasn't that fun"
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Coir Verm is a very easy substrate to work with. If it contaminates, it was probably bad spawn, and franks tek is legit.
However, I would suggest you learn on invitro V-tek. All you need for it is grass seed and quart PP5 containers. I have found grass seed to be a very forgiving grain in terms of contamination from spore syringes, and you have many small attempts, instead of one big attempt. Grass seed is always a great grain to have for making master jars cause it has so many inoculation points per volume.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21390984/fpart/1/vc/1/nt/5
The quart PP5 containers can become your grain spawn jars after you've gotten your feat wet, or you can grow standard Vtek which grows beautiful mushrooms but IMO requires a greenhouse to function optimally. PP5 twist tops require no filters or special lids, don't rust, and cool off faster, though fewer fit in a PC per run. (dolartree has some for 50c each where I am.)
If you do still want to start bulk, there are perhaps better options than throwing everything into one tub, you can make 1 quart shotgun pans mentioned in this tek. They work quite nicely and can be had for $1 at dollartree. Use franks coir vermiculite tek, with a coir verm casing instead of straw and 50/50 like the tek suggests, but the fruiting chamber is great. Got like 28o fresh off one of these. They're a piece of cake to dunk and harvest as well.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15984459#15984459
It takes a bit of time to learn the ropes once you actually start doing this shit, so I'd start a bit smaller.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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motherchimp
Enthusiast


Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 462
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 8 months, 16 days
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On the top topic of best substrate which would be better, straight poo, poo+coir or poo+straw? Trying to avoid vermiculite until I can find a local seller who doesn't mark up crazy amounts.
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MidwestShroomin
SlackJawwed NeckBeard


Registered: 05/21/15
Posts: 195
Loc: Orion's Belt
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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The best substrate is one that provides enough nutrients but at the same time the substrate should be airy enough for the mycelium to rip through and colonizers quickly. The more crap you add, the higher chance of a contam. GL
-------------------- "A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving." -Lao Tzu
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Quote:
motherchimp said: On the top topic of best substrate which would be better, straight poo, poo+coir or poo+straw? Trying to avoid vermiculite until I can find a local seller who doesn't mark up crazy amounts.
You can spawn to straight coir afaik. Not really sure why everyone uses 80/20 coir verm. Perhaps total substrate quantity, or increased water capacity. I have heard it said that coir holds more water than verm; according to my calcs it holds slightly less. Even so it should be fine, I can't imagine 20% verm has any drastic textural or water capacity effect. I'd be curious to hear it if anyone does know the reason for this.
Of the ones you mentioned, I think straw or poo+straw would be best. Both require more advanced pasturization and moisture control. With a brick of coir you can add like ~guessing~ 3-3.5L water and buckettek it thought free.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Coir Verm is a very easy substrate to work with. If it contaminates, it was probably bad spawn, and franks tek is legit.
However, I would suggest you learn on invitro V-tek. All you need for it is grass seed and quart PP5 containers. I have found grass seed to be a very forgiving grain in terms of contamination from spore syringes,
lol, show me a pic that tells me why he should do in vitro cased grains instead of a cvg bulg grow! 
and rgs doesnt contam as easily? You're making stuff up dude.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: I can't imagine 20% verm has any drastic textural or water capacity effect.
With a brick of coir you can add like ~guessing~ 3-3.5L water and buckettek it thought free.
so you've never done the bucket tek nor seen how verm fluffs up a bulk sub? How are you gonna help anyone with something you havent even done yourself?
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hamloaf
Loaf of Fam.


Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 20,192
Loc: Oklahoma.
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Do you have any solutions to offer, or are you just going to harp on what's wrong with someone else's post.
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Psilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 7,205
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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OP I would learn proper pasteurization methods, so you can have a more nutritious substrate to work with. Follow Frank's Easy Pasteurization tek. IMO, Coir/Hpoo/Verm/Gypsum is the optimal substrate to work with. And, like was stated before, spore syringes can easily contaminate when put on sterilized grain, no more how sterile your procedures are. I'd recommend making agar plates first to check for good growth with no contams. Remember to do all transfers in a properly made SAB!! Good luck
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: best substrate? [Re: hamloaf]
#21904508 - 07/06/15 08:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamloaf said: Do you have any solutions to offer, or are you just going to harp on what's wrong with someone else's post. 

now look who's talking. Couldn't see your solution either 
cvg already been mentioned, there is no "super-substrate" anyway but there are inferior ways to use your colonized grains.
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kibblesnibble
ambitious learner



Registered: 06/28/15
Posts: 8
Loc: 'murica
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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i am a little hesitant to start with agar just because this is my first grow and i wanted to make it as simple as possible. would you say is is fairly necessary to use agar and also will syringes even from the sponsors often contam on grain?
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Psilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 7,205
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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I can understand that, but the most complicated part is the sterile procedures will working with the SAB. Once you master that technique, then agar/G2G/cloning is a lot easier than it seems. A good place to learn agar for beginners is from Pastwhyte's Easy Agar tek. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976 It has a wealth of information with links to videos demonstrating the process at the end.
I used syringes to grain jars on my first couple of grows and had a pretty good success rate, but the lack of consistency with fruit size is what made me wanna try agar to find the best growth before transferring to grains. If you want to use a syringe to grain, then I recommend making a SHIP on your jar lid. It skips the need for a SAB. Just flame the needle and inject through the port. Easy and simple.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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dont ever skip using a SAB even if you use SHIPs. a SAB is too easy to use to not do it.
if you gonna do syringe to grain use as little spore solution as possible.
there's plenty of older members on this site who has beautiful grows and never even touched agar. you just gotta learn to recognize unhealthy jars and not use them as spawn.
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Quote:
spacechildo said:
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Coir Verm is a very easy substrate to work with. If it contaminates, it was probably bad spawn, and franks tek is legit.
However, I would suggest you learn on invitro V-tek. All you need for it is grass seed and quart PP5 containers. I have found grass seed to be a very forgiving grain in terms of contamination from spore syringes,
lol, show me a pic that tells me why he should do in vitro cased grains instead of a cvg bulg grow! 
and rgs doesnt contam as easily? You're making stuff up dude.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: I can't imagine 20% verm has any drastic textural or water capacity effect.
With a brick of coir you can add like ~guessing~ 3-3.5L water and buckettek it thought free.
so you've never done the bucket tek nor seen how verm fluffs up a bulk sub? How are you gonna help anyone with something you havent even done yourself?
As for using straight coir, adding 2qt vermiculite seems to add a particle half the size of a rice grain about every couple mm, no way that low of a density of verm has a massive effect on texture. Coir is fluffy when properly hydrated on its own. Not saying there is no reason to add verm or that it isn't better, just that it's not mandatory.
Try using the search function, you'll find plenty of accounts of success with straight coir.  Here's two TC's confirming it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20101656 http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6004845 Tek
As for grass seed, I've never had an MS inocultion fail on grass seed. Invitro vtek is a dirt cheap way to get your feet wet at virtually no cost, get experience with working on grains, knowing how they should look, and how to prepare them, with low penalty for failure. Grass seed prep in plastics is extremely forgiving, unlike in glass.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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kibblesnibble
ambitious learner



Registered: 06/28/15
Posts: 8
Loc: 'murica
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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i am planning on using a SAB, what is your opinion on polyfil lids instead of RTV? polyfil is what the tek i am following suggests.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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well of course straight coir works fine I never said otherwise what I commented on was you saying there's not much diff in texture between straight coir and CV.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Grass seed prep in plastics is extremely forgiving, unlike in glass.
say what? so contams wont germinate or exist in plastic? I think you just need more exp. this makes 0 sense..
op; Polyfill is for the needed GE, rtv is for the optional SHIP.
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kibblesnibble
ambitious learner



Registered: 06/28/15
Posts: 8
Loc: 'murica
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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so do you think it would be in theory, alright to use a MS syringe on grain (WBS) and just make extra jars in case some contam, and it would still be successful?
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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yes of course. agar is just great because you KNOW you have a clean inoculant and dont have to deal with the whole "is this clean, is this clean" as a newb.
your own sterile tech could still fail but chances are you'd spot it on agar before putting it to grain anyway.
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Quote:
spacechildo said: well of course straight coir works fine I never said otherwise what I commented on was you saying there's not much diff in texture between straight coir and CV.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Grass seed prep in plastics is extremely forgiving, unlike in glass.
say what? so contams wont germinate or exist in plastic? I think you just need more exp. this makes 0 sense..
op; Polyfill is for the needed GE, rtv is for the optional SHIP.
It's easy to overcook grass seed in glass. The starch bakes out and it gets clumpy and more prone to contamination. It's hard to get something that isn't usable with plastic due to the shorter cook time and faster cooldown.
Coir texture is fairly similar w or w.o verm IMO. I've hydrated some coir on its own before adding any verm, then microwave pasturized it. I'll use straight coir next time out of curiosity. Feels more like verm particles lodged between fibers of coir with 80/20, while 50/50 verm whatever mixes are more like coated verm particles.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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plastic/glass dont have shorter cook times. if the seeds burst they were too wet going in.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Coir texture is fairly similar w or w.o verm IMO.
that's so weird, its the complete opposite for me. I can even play around with verm% in my cvg casing layers because its so different..
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Green Bastard
Stranger

Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 199
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said:
Coir texture is fairly similar w or w.o verm IMO. I've hydrated some coir on its own before adding any verm, then microwave pasturized it. I'll use straight coir next time out of curiosity. Feels more like verm particles lodged between fibers of coir with 80/20, while 50/50 verm whatever mixes are more like coated verm particles.
So not my experience with coir n verm. Sounds like you're using a super fine grade. You might consider using a medium, or coarse grade. I find it helps keeps my sub much fluffier. Much easier to make a non clumpy homogenous bucket tek...
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
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I believe you are correct and it is fine grade. I didn't have a lot of choice in the matter. It also seems to be above field capacity when hydrated @ 2:1 verm water.
As long as I don't overhydrate it, I find that the 80/20 coir verm substrate is just fine with my verm. 4.5qt is the most I'd dare hydrate my 80/20, though I'm thinking 4-4.25 is better.
I'm gonna try straight coir next time. One brick would be just about right for two of minis. I doubt it makes a particularly good fruiting surface though, so I'll prolly throw some 50/50+ ontop.
Re: Grass seed prep in plastic The combination of plastic containers heating and cooling faster and the reduced PC times, and extra shake room for smaller quantities are what make it forgiving
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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