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LoveNaborFuckHater
That one guy


Registered: 02/13/15
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Question of forgiveness, God, and death.
#21895242 - 07/04/15 12:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I grew up catholic so if some of you don't see the point of view I grew up with forgive me.
I've always been told our relationships with god were supposed to everlasting. He can always love us and forgive us no matter what. My teachers (went to catholic schools) taught me to think of it as a bungee chord. You can stretch your relationship very far from god but can never completely seperate and he can always forgive us.
I've been taught when you die you either go to Purgatory or Hell. If you go to Purgatory you will go to heaven but if you go to hell you must spend eternity in hell.
So it seems as though once you die and are placed you will live there for eternity. But that cannot be true because Satan was once one of many angels who fell from heaven. So if you can go from heaven to hell after you die, and our relationship with god is supposed to never be cut off completely. Then why can we not be forgiven while in hell and rise to heaven. It's always sounded like once you go to hell you're there for good.
Discuss.
-------------------- "They told me drugs were bad, oh man, oh man, they had me fooled"

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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Loc: South Florida
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I am sorry to hear the pain Catholicism has caused you. Raised a Reformed Jew, but influenced by Irish and Italian Catholics, I was baptized in the Catholic Church (never confirmed). I then spent 2 years earning a Masters of Theological Studies degree in a Methodist seminary where I studied the Bible, theology, Christology, soteriology, Judaism, etc. There is very, very little about Hell in the Bible except for a bit in the Gospel of Matthew which Catholicism seized upon, expanded theologically, and used to control the multitudes with terror. Centuries of artists drove the Catholic agenda home. In the first place, there is NOTHING biblical about Purgatory. This was expanded in literary works like The Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri, and Hell has been famously illustrated by Albrecht Durer, Hieronymous Bosch, Brugel the Elder and the Younger, and many others. Tintoretto has some illustrations of Heaven. ALL of this is fanciful creations of men, and nobody can illustrate these realms because they do not exist in Form.
Islam has Hells, but they are not eternal. The same goes for Buddhism and Hinduism. Judaism never developed concepts of dimensions that in other faiths are clearly the result of very very morbid imaginations, with all manner of scatological associations that those of us with training in depth psychology recognize immediately as projections of ingenious but deranged minds. Catholic doctrines manipulated the multitudes for centuries, and ill-affected several of my childhood friends. I am glad I plumbed the depths of that tradition, but I'm happier yet that I resurfaced to come to conclusions based upon 40 years of study, contemplation, and intuition. I will take a stand against ANY classical theologian who attempts to frighten my contemporaries based on distorted brief writings found in the canonical Bible, which Catholic theologians constructed from hundreds of possible books in the first place. I would suggest that you consider both Orthodox and Protestant positions, and then, most importantly, come to your own intuitive conclusions about these metaphysical assertions. You need not be intimidated by centuries of tradition when truly pathological and sinister political agendas have been behind many of these things. I am advising you to draw upon your own God-given intellect and conscience and reject the fearful programming that has been inflicted on you. I know sincerity when I hear it, and God surely knows better than I do.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Deviate
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The OP didn't say anything about Catholicism causing him pain, it's great how you just assume the most negative interpretation Markos.
Quote:
there is NOTHING biblical about Purgatory
What do you mean? The Bible speaks about the possibility of purification after death as well as prayers for the dead, hence the notion of "purgatory".
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
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Deviate
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Quote:
LoveNaborFuckHater said: I grew up catholic so if some of you don't see the point of view I grew up with forgive me.
I've always been told our relationships with god were supposed to everlasting. He can always love us and forgive us no matter what. My teachers (went to catholic schools) taught me to think of it as a bungee chord. You can stretch your relationship very far from god but can never completely seperate and he can always forgive us.
I've been taught when you die you either go to Purgatory or Hell. If you go to Purgatory you will go to heaven but if you go to hell you must spend eternity in hell.
So it seems as though once you die and are placed you will live there for eternity. But that cannot be true because Satan was once one of many angels who fell from heaven. So if you can go from heaven to hell after you die, and our relationship with god is supposed to never be cut off completely. Then why can we not be forgiven while in hell and rise to heaven. It's always sounded like once you go to hell you're there for good.
Discuss.
You pose an excellent question. C.S. Lewis also considered this question and answered it but I am struggling to remember which book (I believe it is either The Great Divorce or Mere Christianity, both excellent books completely worth reading even apart from your question). I could try to paraphrase C.S. Lewis but I really would prefer not to risk butchering his theology, so if you are truly curious about this I strongly suggest you read some C.S. Lewis.
I will say that the answer has to do with the fact that in the spiritual realm time is not seen as linear like how western culture sees it on earth. The implications of this are extremely far reaching if you think about it.
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LoveNaborFuckHater
That one guy


Registered: 02/13/15
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21896374 - 07/04/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: The OP didn't say anything about Catholicism causing him pain, it's great how you just assume the most negative interpretation Markos.
While I didn't directly say anything about me having a conflict with the Catholic church, I think he picked it up just by how I wrote. In which he was correct, I more or less resent the church, I oppose most religion as an institution all together.
-------------------- "They told me drugs were bad, oh man, oh man, they had me fooled"

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Photismos
Stranger

Registered: 06/30/15
Posts: 13
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21899049 - 07/04/15 11:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: The OP didn't say anything about Catholicism causing him pain, it's great how you just assume the most negative interpretation Markos.
What is honey to one man is poison to another.
But the fact that the world must learn to live with the Roman Catholic Church should reveal to us what is good about it: as Mother to the poor, as custodian of the True, Good and Beautiful, as steward to the earth (Laudato si'), as the Father of social justice (i.e. the defeat of Marxism and the development of a moral critique of capitalism). The spiritual authority that streams from the Petrine faculty is undeniable in this regard and it certainly withstands the spirit of criticism that only sees the stifling of the individual in the prerogatives of Rome.
Make no mistake, the history of the RCC is perceptively cruel and violent, even macabre, but her redemption is everyone's 'business' for as long as everyone remains a participant in earthly history, including those of us who enjoy the dividends of modern conveniences that owe themselves to the equally-vicious destinies of materialist civilization and economic ascendancy (both of which are fruits of the anti-clerical Enlightenment). There exists not one individual editorial that isn't striving after the wind when it admonishes the participation of the spirit in the whole of history, which is primarily what the Catholic Church represents.
“A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.” -G.K. Chesterton
Edited by Photismos (07/05/15 12:44 AM)
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Deviate
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Photismos]
#21899310 - 07/05/15 12:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I came from a non-religious family. I grew up believing that life was a meaningless and extremely painful arrangement of atoms and molecules in empty space and that when the physical body died, consciousness would cease for eternity rendering anything I did manage to accomplish in life meaningless. Throughout most of my youth, I struggled with a great fear of death and illness, I saw no meaning or purpose for suffering and once I reached adolescence I struggled daily just to find the motivation to get out of bed to face the pain of another day in this dreary world.
In comparison to my bleak worldview, the Catholic Church represents a great treasury of hope, purpose, truth, love and beauty. Regardless of its faults it seems so much better to me than believing life is simply a hopeless accident.
I know there are atheists who seem happy and that's great, but I was not one of them. I couldn't get past the idea that I had to suffer so much for no particular reason, seeing as how I would die anyway.
The Catholic Church, imperfect as it is, still offers a very deep, intellectual and mystical spiritual teaching. I think its a shame so many people fail to appreciate that and can only place blame, as though they are somehow entitled to perfection in life.
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21900382 - 07/05/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So because you are scared of your own mortality and seek a buoy for existence people should accept that rationale for themselves and not hold the Catholic church accountable for all the fraudulent bullshit it produces and still believe in it's sales pitch of eternal life but only if they abide by the terms and conditions it sets? 
The Catholic church should be abolished imo in terms of being a symbol of persuasion in the Western world. It serves no purpose in today's civilization.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21900586 - 07/05/15 11:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I came from a non-religious family. I grew up believing that life was a meaningless and extremely painful arrangement of atoms and molecules in empty space and that when the physical body died, consciousness would cease for eternity rendering anything I did manage to accomplish in life meaningless. Throughout most of my youth, I struggled with a great fear of death and illness, I saw no meaning or purpose for suffering and once I reached adolescence I struggled daily just to find the motivation to get out of bed to face the pain of another day in this dreary world.
In comparison to my bleak worldview, the Catholic Church represents a great treasury of hope, purpose, truth, love and beauty. Regardless of its faults it seems so much better to me than believing life is simply a hopeless accident.
I know there are atheists who seem happy and that's great, but I was not one of them. I couldn't get past the idea that I had to suffer so much for no particular reason, seeing as how I would die anyway.
The Catholic Church, imperfect as it is, still offers a very deep, intellectual and mystical spiritual teaching. I think its a shame so many people fail to appreciate that and can only place blame, as though they are somehow entitled to perfection in life.
Then it's good Alcor has a place for you if you can pay them just $100k a year you can get perma storage in their cryogenic tanks and revival in the future
For people who believe they are their brains ;-)
They will do anything to find meaning
btw. Don't take every word in the Bible for truth, there may be truths and there may be lies who knows why - maybe for spiritual reasons how does one gain power ? - by misrepresenting truth
if you could corrupt the bible that would give you ultimate power
if you could introduce fear into the bible, you could control others
truth doesn't separate people, truth is forgiveness and people create their hell for themselves, they may even sell out their soul by the hell they create
but one day they will likely rise again from the darkness, maybe not in this lifetime
I don't believe the soul can be destroyed by darkness, it can only be hidden
people cannot accept other people's beliefs, these people often got great problems themselves
if we lose our soul in this reality I believe we would do many stupid things to others, incl killing others or ourselves, hating ourselves etc. but in next life we may gain our soul back, or later this life, we always get second chances it seems
I lost my soul for many years, and I see many in society that have lost their soul second chances come when you least suspect it, when you learn to do the right actions in life
eternal damnation is only for people who CHOSE eternal damnation who chose to keep selling their soul to the devil
there are many ways, many people literally give out their soul for power they usually don't become happy from it, then they want more power and feel no joy
(or that is my belief..) the thing about the devil may be right, but luckily goodness trumps evil
evil can only hide our soul temporarily it seems , because it is made of God
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,797
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No you have been lied to.
The pope renounced the notion of people going to hell. People may make a stop in purgatury to have their sins burnt off them (its the sins that burn away, not the souls, Pyrocatharsis) but then we go to Heaven, according to modern catholic doctrine.
Do not let your FEAR OF GOD lead you. Get drunk on God, let GOD'S LOVE fill and overflow you. Theres a neverending supply.
Hell is where the demons roam, you cannot become a demon but you CAN get closer to God.
DO IT. GET CLOSER TO GOD. To be cast into Hell for all eternity is one of the most evil lies ever told.
Quote:
POPE JOHN PAUL II REJECTS REALITY OF A LITERAL HELL
During his weekly address to the general audience of 8,500 people at the Vatican on July 28, 1999, Pope John Paul II rejected the reality of a physical, literal hell as a place of eternal fire and torment. Rather, the pope said hell is separation, even in this life, from the joyful communion with God. According to an official Vatican transcript of the pope's speech, Pope John Paul II noted that the Scriptural references to hell and the images portrayed by Scripture are only symbolic and figurative of "the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. " He added, "Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." He said hell is "a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life." Concerning the concept of eternal damnation, the pope said, "Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever." The pope also added, "The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair." Rather, he stated, it is a reminder of the freedom found in Christ.
The Religion News Service reported that a Vatican-approved editorial published several weeks ago in the Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica agrees with the pope's latest pronouncement. The editorial explicitly pronounced, "Hell exists, not as a place but as a state, a way of being of the person who suffers the pain of the deprivation of God" (Los Angeles Times, 7-31-99). The pope said eternal damnation is "not God's work but is actually our own doing." Only a week earlier the pope stated that heaven is neither "an abstraction nor a place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship of union with the Holy Trinity. "
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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LoveNaborFuckHater
That one guy


Registered: 02/13/15
Posts: 861
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: lessismore]
#21901235 - 07/05/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Phostismos, I can't understand what you're saying I'm not quite at that reading level.
While we're on the subject of religion I'll share my view of religion as a whole and what I believe in.
First off I don't consider myself catholic although I'm baptised and confirmed. I don't affiliate myself with any religion in particular but the closest thing I am to would probably be agnostic. I don't doubt that there is a god but I don't doubt that there isn't a god either. Over the last couple years I feel like I've "outgrown" the Catholic church. I didn't fit into what they believe in anymore.
I honestly think religion is a great thing even though I don't agree with it. If someone were to come up to you and give you the ten commandments (take out parts that had to do with god) would you follow that for you life? I don't think so. But if those same principles had something to base it off - a god in this sense - people would be willing to base their lives on it.
God is the foundation of any religion. Religion may be started to give people principles to follow that a law may not convince people to do. Religion may be started as a financial gain for someone and nothing more. Religion may be started for power. But all religion has god and they all have principles. No one would follow religion if there is no fear. This fear may be eternal damnation or fear of not knowing if there is a greater power. That is where religion comes to make people feel safe. To answer their questions.
You can make a religion out of anything you like. As long as there is fear and a higher power to make you fear. People will follow it.
That is why I began to question religion. All throughout history religion does these crazy things and they act like it's the right thing to do. We look back at it now like it was a different world. The Catholic Church is still the same church that used to sacrifice people though. We're still the same church that executed people that didn't think like us. When Spanish missionaries came to America they forced all of the natives to become catholic. Is that what religion really is? What is different today? No, we don't still kill people but we tell then that they will face hell if they don't believe in what we believe. The Catholic Church doesnt specifically say it to the people but they subtly say that if you arent catholic then you will not go to heaven . They say you must do this, this and this to achieve eternal happiness. Well what about a child who was raised jewish? Does the child deserve to spend eternity in hell because the child was raised to believe in the Jewish faith? According to the church if you die with a mortal sin on your heart you will go to hell. One of the most common mortal sins is not going to mass. If you know it is a mortal sin, don't go to mass willingly, and know that it is a grave matter then you will go to hell. Is missing a mass worthy of going to hell? The church is still very twisted in its ways. We may not kill anymore but telling people they won't go to heaven because they don't go to mass isn't much better. When I was confirmed, since I went to a catholic school, my confirmation was a project and a grade. I had no choice to be confirmed or not, we all had to do it.
Now that I have seen the true beast of what religion really is, I look at the principles it offers. I disregard everything else. You don't have to pray everyday to be a good person. You don't have to believe a man was ressurected. You don't have to visit the mecca atleast once in your life. You don't have to believe in reincarnation. But you should believe in loving others. You should fulfill your dharma.
I believe it was BenJamin Franklin who wrote an essay of 15 principles he followed in life. These were things like keep a clean mind, be kind, love others, things of that sort. This is the same teaching as religion except he cut off all unnecessary parts. This is what I strive to do. I look at religion and find what principles it has to offer. Not if they believe in an ancient prophet, an animal, or something else. This is fluff to give the religion a foundation. I take these principles and try to live them out because this will lead to happiness and love. You don't need a relationship with god to love. You must love yourself and love others and that is what true love is.
How many are there who will whole-heartedly follow a list of principles without having something to base it off. If they don't think there's a higher power or an afterlife then why should they follow these principles? That is why there is religion.
-------------------- "They told me drugs were bad, oh man, oh man, they had me fooled"

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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Asante]
#21901390 - 07/05/15 02:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: No you have been lied to.
The pope renounced the notion of people going to hell. People may make a stop in purgatury to have their sins burnt off them (its the sins that burn away, not the souls, Pyrocatharsis) but then we go to Heaven, according to modern catholic doctrine.
Do not let your FEAR OF GOD lead you. Get drunk on God, let GOD'S LOVE fill and overflow you. Theres a neverending supply.
Hell is where the demons roam, you cannot become a demon but you CAN get closer to God.
DO IT. GET CLOSER TO GOD. To be cast into Hell for all eternity is one of the most evil lies ever told.
Quote:
POPE JOHN PAUL II REJECTS REALITY OF A LITERAL HELL
During his weekly address to the general audience of 8,500 people at the Vatican on July 28, 1999, Pope John Paul II rejected the reality of a physical, literal hell as a place of eternal fire and torment. Rather, the pope said hell is separation, even in this life, from the joyful communion with God. According to an official Vatican transcript of the pope's speech, Pope John Paul II noted that the Scriptural references to hell and the images portrayed by Scripture are only symbolic and figurative of "the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. " He added, "Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." He said hell is "a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life." Concerning the concept of eternal damnation, the pope said, "Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever." The pope also added, "The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair." Rather, he stated, it is a reminder of the freedom found in Christ.
The Religion News Service reported that a Vatican-approved editorial published several weeks ago in the Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica agrees with the pope's latest pronouncement. The editorial explicitly pronounced, "Hell exists, not as a place but as a state, a way of being of the person who suffers the pain of the deprivation of God" (Los Angeles Times, 7-31-99). The pope said eternal damnation is "not God's work but is actually our own doing." Only a week earlier the pope stated that heaven is neither "an abstraction nor a place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship of union with the Holy Trinity. "
Yup, chose to live in gods name, give your heart to god
it is possible even when being agnostic, at least I've tried being agnostic and still serving god
faith helps though, faith in the universe, others and oneself
fear of damnation is the opposite of faith, it helps noone, you cannot feel free with fear only love sets you free
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Deviate
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: cez]
#21901433 - 07/05/15 02:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: So because you are scared of your own mortality and seek a buoy for existence people should accept that rationale for themselves and not hold the Catholic church accountable for all the fraudulent bullshit it produces and still believe in it's sales pitch of eternal life but only if they abide by the terms and conditions it sets? 
The Catholic church should be abolished imo in terms of being a symbol of persuasion in the Western world. It serves no purpose in today's civilization.
Way to completely miss the point. I am saying that while it may not be perfect, the Catholic Church actually provides a very good spiritual teachings relative to all the different beliefs floating around these days.
If you look past your own arrogance for one second and read some Catholic works like dark night of the soul by St. John of the Cross or the interior Castle by St. Teresa of Avila, you might see the value of what the church has contributed to human culture and civilization even if it doesnt speak to you personally.
statements like " It serves no purpose in today's civilization" do not put forward any sort of reasonable argument. It is entirely your arbitrary preference.
Edited by Deviate (07/05/15 02:55 PM)
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21901539 - 07/05/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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What other teachings are you referring to?
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Deviate
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21901556 - 07/05/15 03:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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to give a different perspecrtive on the church I am going to post the following which is merely my experience, but also the experience of many of my friends and contemporaries who I have met through the church.
I see so many people hating on the church, focusing solely on the negative. I respect all opinions and perspectives and realize they are fundamentally no different from my own, everyone simply forms opinions and beliefs based on their own life experiences. This is why humility is important. When you start to believe that your opinions and life experiences are somehow more important than other peoples, it creates conflicts and divisions.
So here is my experience. I am an what Matt Kahn calls an energetically sensitive soul and also I am very mystically inclined. It used to be the only way I could enter itno mystical states of consciousness was through ingesting psychedelic plants and/or mushrooms.
Then one day someone suggested I try going to church. i was very reluctant because of all the negative things I had heard but I decided to go ahead and give it a try.
It took a lot of geting used to, but being energetically sensitive and mystically inclined, it wasn't all that long before I realized I was able to sense the Presence of Christ in the blessed sacrament.
Now this is a very special sacrament which has been past down through the ages through apostolic succession from the times of the apostles and early church fathers themsefs. The great spiritual masters of early Christianity.
So not only does the church have some decent spiritual teachings which have largely stood the test of time, it also has these so called sacraments which are extra special especially for the mystically inclined
I began to notice that if i went and sat in the presence of the blessed sacrament, I would find my consciousness changing. Sometimes it would be painful as old parts of myself that were no longer serving me started to get burned away. But the other side of this presence I felt was peace and love. And it was peace and love in such a pure form, not adulterated by intoxication like the sort of peace and love on might experience on LSD (not that I think LSD is a bad thing). Another very special thing about the Presence is that it is non verbal/intellectual. It doesnt have to do with doctrine or beliefs or rules or anything like that.
That is why I find it so sad how people seem to think that the Catholic tradition is about following rules in order to get some kind of reward. This is a grave misunderstanding of what the faith is about. Catholocism is an ancient mystical tradition and the core of the faith has nothing to do with following man made rules or doctrines. And dont try and tell me I am the only one who interprets it like this because the very Bible itself which is read in Church speaks about this sort of thing. This is what Jesus's conflicts with the scribes and pharisees are all about, the mystical aspect of experiencing God in oneself vs following religious rules.
Becuse unlike many protestant churchs the Catholic Church is sacramentally focused (the Holy Eucharist is valued above anything the priest might preach) the church is mystically focused.
Now how valuable is this? a place I can go to gather together with others to focus on peace, love and goodness and experience peace within myself through the power of the presence of God. What a wonderful and relatively safe way to expand consciousness!
So why should it be abolished? So you can take away another means by which man can expand his consciousness just like when they banned LSD?
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Deviate
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: cez]
#21901607 - 07/05/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: What other teachings are you referring to?
Well in my case primarily the sick and perverted values of our culture at large.
At least within the Catholic Chuch, there exists a counter culture which values spirituality, kindness, dignity, empathy, service to others, peace, love, honesty, integrity, humility, responsibility - all the things which to me seemed like important things in life when I was a kid but which the culture I grew up in repeatedly spat on and ridiculed to one degree or another, while at the same promoting in some situations thus sending contradictory and confusing messages about how to relate with life.
Of course you can find some/all of these values outside the church, in Buddhism for example, in Hinduism, in shamanism, in some forms of medicine, even in the western hippie counter culture.
But for me one very special thing about the Catholic Church is its reach. For example, in some towns I might be able to find a Buddhist temple where I could go and meet like minded people who are interested in becoming spirituality healthy and creating a happier society. But there is a Catholic Church in almost every town, so where ever I am, thanks to the Church, there is a place I can go to spend a little time away from the mainstream culture and absorb the energy of the sort of people who energize me (at least during the time when we are both focusing on God, not saying I get along perfectly with all Catholics). It is just so lovely for me, to have a place I can go to pray and worship with other people who care about life.
I has also gone to a Buddhist organization in my town, actually I have been meaning to start going again and I think that is great also but what I am saying is that I dont think either one should be abolished just because some people dont like it or think its bad.
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blessed


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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21901678 - 07/05/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hello LoveNaborFuckHater
While I am in no way an expert on the Bible I do want to share what I understand on this point.
It's is true that God's love is everlasting, and that he want to forgive us is so true. But the point I see in the Bible is this. God gives us a choice. This choice is ultimately made through his son. The Bible says that those who believe will be saved and those that don't will be condemned. Btw, this belief is a belief that requires act on our part. The Bible talks about this in James.
So as it stands, evey person lives and then dies. If in that life they rejected Christ they have then chosen condemnation full stop. This person can not then say after death, "oh I change my mind" or "pray for me".
The Bible says one life, one judgment.
Now if someone is a child of God, and they die. The Bible does talk about going through a fire process. But that's a saved and justified by Jesus Christ person, not one who rejected the message of God.
If I may add one thing please concerning the Church you grew up in. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that children were baptized. It was done by adults who when being presented by the message of salvation that they then decided to repent and follow. Also I've heard it said that prayers are made to Marry and others. This is not inline with the Bible.
We are to pray to God the father, believe in the son he sent and allow the Holy Spirit leading. This being all done through a relationship with God made possible only by the son.
About baptism. Let say for example that I was brought up in your church. Now as an adult then I read the Bible and noticed that nowhere were children baptised. I would get baptised as an adult like the Bible talks about (in fact, commands us to). Cause I want to follow what God teaches me from his word. Not mans (whoever they may be).
If anyone takes salvation seriously. They should really test what they are being told, or you'll allow yourself to be lied to.
But does this mean that only a few will be saved? well the Bible does mention that many will go down the road of destruction. But my advice to you is be honest about yourself to God. The Bible says God knows your heart 100%. Every possible situation you can face he knows about and he also knows your every response. The God of the Bible is offering salvation to those that want to be saved. In the end all others (no matter how nice they are) have rejected God. Good and Evil ( God and Devil ) we all have to make that choice.
I hope this has helped.
Edited by blessed (07/05/15 04:55 PM)
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21901686 - 07/05/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: to give a different perspecrtive on the church I am going to post the following which is merely my experience, but also the experience of many of my friends and contemporaries who I have met through the church.
I see so many people hating on the church, focusing solely on the negative. I respect all opinions and perspectives and realize they are fundamentally no different from my own, everyone simply forms opinions and beliefs based on their own life experiences. This is why humility is important. When you start to believe that your opinions and life experiences are somehow more important than other peoples, it creates conflicts and divisions.
So here is my experience. I am an what Matt Kahn calls an energetically sensitive soul and also I am very mystically inclined. It used to be the only way I could enter itno mystical states of consciousness was through ingesting psychedelic plants and/or mushrooms.
Then one day someone suggested I try going to church. i was very reluctant because of all the negative things I had heard but I decided to go ahead and give it a try.
It took a lot of geting used to, but being energetically sensitive and mystically inclined, it wasn't all that long before I realized I was able to sense the Presence of Christ in the blessed sacrament.
Now this is a very special sacrament which has been past down through the ages through apostolic succession from the times of the apostles and early church fathers themsefs. The great spiritual masters of early Christianity.
So not only does the church have some decent spiritual teachings which have largely stood the test of time, it also has these so called sacraments which are extra special especially for the mystically inclined
I began to notice that if i went and sat in the presence of the blessed sacrament, I would find my consciousness changing. Sometimes it would be painful as old parts of myself that were no longer serving me started to get burned away. But the other side of this presence I felt was peace and love. And it was peace and love in such a pure form, not adulterated by intoxication like the sort of peace and love on might experience on LSD (not that I think LSD is a bad thing). Another very special thing about the Presence is that it is non verbal/intellectual. It doesnt have to do with doctrine or beliefs or rules or anything like that.
That is why I find it so sad how people seem to think that the Catholic tradition is about following rules in order to get some kind of reward. This is a grave misunderstanding of what the faith is about. Catholocism is an ancient mystical tradition and the core of the faith has nothing to do with following man made rules or doctrines. And dont try and tell me I am the only one who interprets it like this because the very Bible itself which is read in Church speaks about this sort of thing. This is what Jesus's conflicts with the scribes and pharisees are all about, the mystical aspect of experiencing God in oneself vs following religious rules.
Becuse unlike many protestant churchs the Catholic Church is sacramentally focused (the Holy Eucharist is valued above anything the priest might preach) the church is mystically focused.
Now how valuable is this? a place I can go to gather together with others to focus on peace, love and goodness and experience peace within myself through the power of the presence of God. What a wonderful and relatively safe way to expand consciousness!
So why should it be abolished? So you can take away another means by which man can expand his consciousness just like when they banned LSD?
Well said Often the more true a religion is, the more hated it is
Many people wouldn't recognize truth if it was right in front of their eyes
But some people who are enough spiritually developed recognize any truth when they see it
I don't go enough to church really, but I got pretty moved last time, very overwhelming suddenly, didn't expect that had some totally unexpected experience
I see what you just wrote above daily... our culture is very active at trying to undermine christianity, in favor of science They cannot accept other belief systems, and they are sure they got the only right one
As a science person all my life I know why they do it, and what science often leads to It leads to believing one knows, forgetting ones soul often , so one lashes out on others, brags etc. often
A good thought framework would be one that makes one humble, and there are no guarantees for that with science today Neither is it a guarantee with religion
So science is not a cure for all, people can still be equally deluded and think they know everything Same for religion..
With our actions we show if we know our god, or not
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Douglas Howard
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Quote:
LoveNaborFuckHater said: I grew up catholic so if some of you don't see the point of view I grew up with forgive me.
I've always been told our relationships with god were supposed to everlasting. He can always love us and forgive us no matter what. My teachers (went to catholic schools) taught me to think of it as a bungee chord. You can stretch your relationship very far from god but can never completely seperate and he can always forgive us.
I've been taught when you die you either go to Purgatory or Hell. If you go to Purgatory you will go to heaven but if you go to hell you must spend eternity in hell.
So it seems as though once you die and are placed you will live there for eternity. But that cannot be true because Satan was once one of many angels who fell from heaven. So if you can go from heaven to hell after you die, and our relationship with god is supposed to never be cut off completely. Then why can we not be forgiven while in hell and rise to heaven. It's always sounded like once you go to hell you're there for good.
Discuss.
The devil wasn't ever a fallen angel, it just people had misinterpreted whom was Lucifer had meant. The word Lucifer wasn't translated because they had thought at the time that it was a name of someone or being. But if they would of had translated it, it would sound as if they were describing someone spirit, like "Oh my darling, my most brilliant one, the part of the morning", and which the dawn is the first part of the day like the son of the morning and which in Latin it means Lucifer. The ones that are going to hell are the ones that doesn't has any feelings or life in them, the dead ones that cannot understand grasp the concept of feeling love for one another. But these soulless ones need to cause harm, and if they aren't able to cause harm, it will be as if they are in hell; crying in agony to scratch out a baby's eyes while the baby is relax. And there are people out in this world that doesn't like peace and tranquility at all, they need to upset things. But there are some that causes harm that feel remorseful after they had done the dirty deed, but those that can be corrected and which the other are able to be corrected because going through suffering we grow and learn how it feels if the shoe is on the other foot, but those that are soulless cannot never learn it is because they doesn't has any good spirit in them. And so if you goes through tribulations, just think of it as God is correcting you, but if you are ignored, then you are not going up.
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LoveNaborFuckHater
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Deviate]
#21901721 - 07/05/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: That is why I find it so sad how people seem to think that the Catholic tradition is about following rules in order to get some kind of reward. This is a grave misunderstanding of what the faith is about. Catholocism is an ancient mystical tradition and the core of the faith has nothing to do with following man made rules or doctrines. And dont try and tell me I am the only one who interprets it like this because the very Bible itself which is read in Church speaks about this sort of thing. This is what Jesus's conflicts with the scribes and pharisees are all about, the mystical aspect of experiencing God in oneself vs following religious rules.
No you arent the only one that sees it that way but very few understand this point of view. Jesus shows us that these rules are unnecessary and sometimes ridiculous but this is the very thing the church has reverted to, hence what I said about if you'll go to hell if you miss a mass.
-------------------- "They told me drugs were bad, oh man, oh man, they had me fooled"

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Deviate
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Well the church doesnt exactly say you will go to hell if you miss a Mass, there is always the possibility you could be forgiven through what the church calls......hmm I forget what the church calls it but there is a way sins can be forgiven aside from confession.
Also if you sin and you intend to confess it, but you die before you make it confession you will still be saved. So all you would really need to do is intend to confess missing Mass and you wouldn't go to hell.
But I agree that the teaching that missing Mass is a mortal sin is extremely silly and ridiculous. Especially for folks such as myself who go to daily mass most days and adoration twice a week most weeks.
You would think I would get enough extra credit for going to church so frequently that I should be forgiven for occasionally missing a Sunday Mass, but no as far as I know it is considered a mortal sin still.
Honestly I believe this teaching was created centuries ago when it is widely acknowledged (even by the Vatican) that great evil entered the Church and it began to lust for power, control and worldly riches and influence, rather than being the beacon of light and spiritual mother to the people of the world as Jesus Christ intended when he founded this church.
By making it a mortal sin to miss mass, they ensured good attendance from all faithful Catholics. The Eastern Orthodox Church has critiszed the catholic church extensively for its focus on rules and regulations rather than the Living Truth. but what are you gonna do? I mean this is the church that God provided for me. There aren't very many Orthodox Churches near where I live.
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Photismos
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The substance of my post was that the presence of the Catholic Church is immutable, therefore any spiritual philosophy that seeks to integrate the metamorphosis of the earth must yield to the emissary between material history and spiritual history (that is, the priestcraft of the Universal Man, Jesus Christ). This is a very different esoteric stream from those that seek elopement from the stirring of the earth, which is the affection of the primordial tradition and gnostic spirituality. It is the distinction between the school of thought that affirms the magical and miraculous in the closed cirque of time-space and the school of thought that denies the operation of the magical and miraculous in history.
The French occultist Eliphas Levi writes in Le Grand Arcane ou I'occultisme devoile ("The Great Arcanum, or Occultism Unveiled"):
The ancient rites have lost their effectiveness since Christianity appeared in the world. The Christian and Catholic religion, in fact, is the legitimate daughter of Jesus, king of the Mages. A simple scapular worn by a truly Christian person is a more in- vincible talisman than the ring and pentade of Solomon. The Mass is the most prodigious of evocations. Necromancers evoke the dead, the sorcerer evokes the devil and he shakes, but the Catholic priest does not tremble in evoking the living God. Catholics alone have priests because they alone have the altar and the offering, i.e. the whole of religion. To practise high Magic is to compete with the Catholic priesthood; it is to be a dissident priest. Rome is the great Thebes of the new initiation . . . It has crypts for its catacombs; for talismen, its rosaries and medallions; for a magic chain, its congregations; for magnetic fires, its convents; for centres of attraction, its confessionals; for means of expansion, its pulpits and the addresses of its bishops; it has, lastly, its Pope, the Man-God rendered visible. (Le Grande Arcane ou I'occultisme devoile, Paris, 1921, p. 67-68, 83-84)
The Petrine faculty in this regard is the 'inter-agent' between heaven and earth and is consequently the seat of objectivity. When the Gospel of Matthew speaks of the pre-ordained inability of the "gates of hell" (Portae inferi) to prevail over the birthright of St. Peter, it is of course speaking about the arbitrariness of the spirit of criticism that manifests from the 'genesiology' of gnosis without magic (i.e. knowledge that re-traces itself to spiritual heredity in contradistinction to spiritual revelation). This was true for the ancient heresies that opposed the ecclesiastic community and remains true today for the deserted luminosity of modern humanism, which sets itself up against Rome as though the moon were to deny that it receives its light from the Sun.
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fivepointer
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Purgatory is a fiction created by the RCC.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: fivepointer]
#21920606 - 07/09/15 03:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Plenty of people with near death experiences report Purgatory experiences.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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pwnzer
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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: Asante]
#21927553 - 07/11/15 06:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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LoveNaborFuckHater
That one guy


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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: pwnzer]
#21928601 - 07/11/15 12:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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TL;DR, Read the first few paragraphs and understood where it was going
-------------------- "They told me drugs were bad, oh man, oh man, they had me fooled"

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pwnzer
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I didn't really expect anyone to read it but for anyone that wants to, it's there.
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LoveNaborFuckHater
That one guy


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Re: Question of forgiveness, God, and death. [Re: pwnzer]
#21929854 - 07/11/15 05:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Is that just something written by someone in the internet, or is it a prominent figure in that belief like a creed?
-------------------- "They told me drugs were bad, oh man, oh man, they had me fooled"

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pwnzer
Stranger
Registered: 07/11/15
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some internet person probably
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