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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22233029 - 09/13/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

>What will be taken from our needy if we take in refugees?

The same things that the illegals are taking now, govt services, and the limited amount of welfare benefits available. There is a limit to all that you know.

>If Congress doesn't want to build a wall along the borders, for example, then the idea is dead

He has a powerful personality much like other presidents who got their way. If he is voted in on that platform, it will be hard for other politicians to deny him. They have to face the same voters that said in effect, 'we want it'. The pres has lots of power, even obumble managed to steamroller his aca disaster through. With help from dems only of course. He would have failed on that too without dems owning both houses. Clinton for example could get things done, Reagan got things done.

Taking in refugees has a great cost, except in the minds of the... what word am I looking for? It starts with l, has a couple o's, another letter and ends with y?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22233047 - 09/13/15 06:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Bal, first of all, I see no proof he inherited 200m, and if he did, inheritance taxes would have taken half. Secondly, you want to cherry pick stocks for him to invest in. We would all be very rich if we could go back in time and do that. You also neglect taxes which eat into that a lot. Taxes were much higher in the past than they are now. Show me how many people did what you claim to be so easy to do?




He wouldn't have to cherry pick stocks. In fact, he wouldn't have to do anything. Had he just given his inheritance to someone else to put into a conservative mutual fund, he would have had more money than he does now. Basically, all of his "brilliant" business decisions just put him on par with the rest of the stock market. He wasn't more successful, he just had a head start.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22233055 - 09/13/15 06:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>I can assure you Bernie has tremendous drive,

He is spunky, but at 74 one must question his endurance.




He was a long distance runner and says he's in good shape.  He's also quite active in the Senate.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22233078 - 09/13/15 06:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Taking in refugees will likely yield a net gain...not a loss.




:lolwut:  Yeah, displaced people that can't speak the language or understand the culture are going to be a "net gain". No chance in hell, nothing but a massive burden.


Edited by qman (09/13/15 06:17 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22233129 - 09/13/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You only think that way because you're incapable of seeing the big picture.


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22233144 - 09/13/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You only think that way because you're incapable of seeing the big picture.




Bringing in refugees doesn't have to be a net (economic) gain, it's a humanitarian act.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman] * 1
    #22233158 - 09/13/15 06:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Of course it can.  A good portion of the budget is used countering the effects of U.S. foreign policy.  Accepting refugees can help to counter those effects much more cheaply.  Who knows?  Maybe this one act will stop or delay the next 9/11 level event.  That could save trillions.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22233198 - 09/13/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course it can.  A good portion of the budget is used countering the effects of U.S. foreign policy.  Accepting refugees can help to counter those effects much more cheaply.  Who knows?  Maybe this one act will stop or delay the next 9/11 level event.  That could save trillions.



Exactly.  We created a mess in the middle east and now that people are running for their lives, we say it's not our problem.  Many other countries are taking in Syrians, and if the US refuses, there may be more resentment towards the US.


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22233238 - 09/13/15 06:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course it can.  A good portion of the budget is used countering the effects of U.S. foreign policy.  Accepting refugees can help to counter those effects much more cheaply.  Who knows?  Maybe this one act will stop or delay the next 9/11 level event.  That could save trillions.



Exactly.  We created a mess in the middle east and now that people are running for their lives, we say it's not our problem.  Many other countries are taking in Syrians, and if the US refuses, there may be more resentment towards the US.




Wasn't the Middle East always a mess?  Yes, the US has been involved, but we aren't completely responsible.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22233307 - 09/13/15 06:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Irrelevant.  We are seen as being responsible.  Either we start working on our image among Muslims, or we can expect many more terrorist attacks


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22233380 - 09/13/15 06:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe, but I'm sure the US wouldn't look good in anyone's eyes if it's one of the few countries that doesn't help with a serious problem.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22233597 - 09/13/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

>He wouldn't have to cherry pick stocks. In fact, he wouldn't have to do anything. Had he just given his inheritance to someone else to put into a conservative mutual fund,

Which fund? What money? You have not established what he inherited and are ignoring the fact that inheritance taxes would eat up a lot of it before he got his hands on it. You also ignore income taxes, and mutual fund fees which tend to be high. Ignoring the facts do not make them go away. Not all mutual funds did so well anyhow.

You also ignored my question about how many people did what you claim is so easy?

fal
>We created a mess in the middle east and...

No, "we" didn't do it, our stupid leaders did it mostly obumble. The public was against almost all that crap and was conned into the little bit they did support briefly. We are paying the price for your hero's idiotic actions. Many say what he did was unconstitutional

> Many other countries are taking in Syrians, and if the US refuses, there may be more resentment towards the US.

You mean even more than what obumble caused by bombing innocent civilians, killing them more or less at random with drones and giving a blank check to isreal to finish the job?

enlil
>Either we start working on our image among Muslims, or we can expect many more terrorist attacks

We need to stop murdering them and supporting those who steal their land and commit atrocities against them. Taking in refugees will not do the job. First, obumble must go, then someone with sense has to take over. Either trump or sanders would be a 10,000% improvement


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #22233783 - 09/13/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>He wouldn't have to cherry pick stocks. In fact, he wouldn't have to do anything. Had he just given his inheritance to someone else to put into a conservative mutual fund,

Which fund? What money? You have not established what he inherited and are ignoring the fact that inheritance taxes would eat up a lot of it before he got his hands on it. You also ignore income taxes, and mutual fund fees which tend to be high. Ignoring the facts do not make them go away. Not all mutual funds did so well anyhow.

You also ignored my question about how many people did what you claim is so easy?





He could have put his money in any S&P 500 Indexed fund. He had plenty of money that he inherited.

His wealth grew by about 300% since 1988, the S&P 500 grew by 1,336%. Taxes and fees aren't going to account for 1000%, and even if you factor in the taxes he still would have done just as well.

In regards to your question, not everyone starts off with the kind of wealth that Trump did, but over the same time period, both Bill Gates (7,173%) and Warren Buffet (2,612%) absolutely smoked Trump and beat the S&P 500. So yea, Donald Trump isn't exactly the economic genius that you portray him to be.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22233946 - 09/13/15 08:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Lol, so gates and buffet did better and that proves trump is a lousy investor and bad business man? That doesn't even make sense. First of all, gates made his billions fleecing people with mediocre software, his main talent was creating a near monopoly, not investing. Buffet, yes, is a great investor. But that takes nothing from trump.

Your article says his share of his dads estate would be worth 40m, not the 200m you tried to tell us. When you crib from an article at least try to get your story straight. its also an estimate and no one seems to know for sure what trump got. It also ignores inheritance taxes same as you do. It also picks vanguard for him to invest in because it not only did well but has a low fee. It also assumes nothing taken out, all dividends reinvested and I guess he is supposed to live on air during that time.

So, after factoring in inheritance taxes, not taking out a dime, and ignoring commission fees for reinvesting dividends (another factor the article ignores) and picking the right fund, he would have made a lot. Not as much as the article says but pretty close to a billion if he invested the whole 20m in vanguard. Some funds sank, btw.

And assuming he got out near the peak he would have a lot. But, that takes nothing away from trump who is worth an estimated 10b, that's a "B" not a "M" He also got fleeced in divorces, another factor your article ignores. The judge is going to give a lot to the wife you know. But if you ignore reality, yeah he could have made a few b that way.

The other article is an ap news story, the media is not known for accuracy and estimates his worth at 4b today, less than it actually is. But so what, even if he would have made more in the stock market knowing when to get in and out, and kept it from his ex, what does that prove? That he is a bad business man? Get real.

Your list of who did better than trump is very very short. :wink: How did Bernie do during that time?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22233971 - 09/13/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

How many times has trump filed bankruptcy, btw?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22233980 - 09/13/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

How many billions do you have, btw?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22234015 - 09/13/15 08:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>He wouldn't have to cherry pick stocks. In fact, he wouldn't have to do anything. Had he just given his inheritance to someone else to put into a conservative mutual fund,

Which fund? What money? You have not established what he inherited and are ignoring the fact that inheritance taxes would eat up a lot of it before he got his hands on it. You also ignore income taxes, and mutual fund fees which tend to be high. Ignoring the facts do not make them go away. Not all mutual funds did so well anyhow.

You also ignored my question about how many people did what you claim is so easy?





He could have put his money in any S&P 500 Indexed fund. He had plenty of money that he inherited.

His wealth grew by about 300% since 1988, the S&P 500 grew by 1,336%. Taxes and fees aren't going to account for 1000%, and even if you factor in the taxes he still would have done just as well.

In regards to your question, not everyone starts off with the kind of wealth that Trump did, but over the same time period, both Bill Gates (7,173%) and Warren Buffet (2,612%) absolutely smoked Trump and beat the S&P 500. So yea, Donald Trump isn't exactly the economic genius that you portray him to be.




"He could have put his money"

It's so easy to invest in the past, it makes no sense going back and looking at what anyone "could have put his money".

Trump was in the real estate business, he was going to sink to swim depending on that sector.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22234097 - 09/13/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>I'm pretty sure the S&P 500 outpaced him. He's, at best, a marginally successful business man.

If you are talking about trump, you are sadly mistaken. He is one of the elite yet he fights for the common man. Unlike you, he cares about americans and not illegals.




You are fucking delusional. As I said, Trump would have done just as well having invested in a basic mutual fund as he's done through his 'entrepreneurial pursuits'. He would have done the world a big service if he had multiplied daddies wealth in the former manner rather than the latter, because in the process of completing his real estatr projects he killed hundreds of small businesses and destroyed families by stiffing workers.
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>I see right through Bernie.

>He promises everything that will get him votes bute once he's in office, none of what he promise will be survive the house and or senate...

Exactly. It takes more than good intentions, what has he actually managed to get done so far? Trump has the drive to succeed.




What has Bernie managed to do? He's a congressman with over 70% approval in his home state. The longest serving Independent in US history. He's actually fucking done things. What the fuck has Trump done!?! He developed a new hairstyle that society has rejected, and stiffed a bunch of small time contractors out of business. He's a fucking leach. The physical embodiment of everything that is wrong with America. Fuck the little guy to get rich quick, and he wasnt even fucking good at it.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/13/15 08:54 PM)


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22234283 - 09/13/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>He wouldn't have to cherry pick stocks. In fact, he wouldn't have to do anything. Had he just given his inheritance to someone else to put into a conservative mutual fund,

Which fund? What money? You have not established what he inherited and are ignoring the fact that inheritance taxes would eat up a lot of it before he got his hands on it. You also ignore income taxes, and mutual fund fees which tend to be high. Ignoring the facts do not make them go away. Not all mutual funds did so well anyhow.

You also ignored my question about how many people did what you claim is so easy?

fal
>We created a mess in the middle east and...

No, "we" didn't do it, our stupid leaders did it mostly obumble. The public was against almost all that crap and was conned into the little bit they did support briefly. We are paying the price for your hero's idiotic actions. Many say what he did was unconstitutional

> Many other countries are taking in Syrians, and if the US refuses, there may be more resentment towards the US.

You mean even more than what obumble caused by bombing innocent civilians, killing them more or less at random with drones and giving a blank check to isreal to finish the job?

enlil
>Either we start working on our image among Muslims, or we can expect many more terrorist attacks

We need to stop murdering them and supporting those who steal their land and commit atrocities against them. Taking in refugees will not do the job. First, obumble must go, then someone with sense has to take over. Either trump or sanders would be a 10,000% improvement





Dude, you honestly have no grasp on middle eastern politics and I'm doubtful on your knowledge of foreign policy. Yes Obama fuuuuucked the region, he did it with the aid of Mccain and Clinton, but he's the fifth President in a row that has left an increasingly worse situation.


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OnlineThe Ecstatic
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: airclay]
    #22234475 - 09/13/15 09:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

What a surprise, Trump supporters' knowledge of ME politics is as lacking as his own.


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