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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22217316 - 09/10/15 03:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Stop and Frisk" was just a NYC policy, that small segment hardly accounts for the rest of the country.

What reports in Baltimore have demonstrated anything?  Freddie Grey was a street dealer in public view, that's why he had been arrested many times in the past.




The case for Baltimore is quite clear, and I can demonstrate that fairly easily. First I want to know what your opinion of NYC is though? Do you still believe that there wasn't a racist element to their policing? Or that Blacks weren't disproportionately given stronger sentences for the same crimes?

I would like to beat this one to death first before we move on to another clear case ;-)




"Do you still believe that there wasn't a racist element to their policing?"

No one's denying that NYC's stop and frisk policing didn't target minorities, the intention of stop and frisk was to target the demographics which are more likely to commit crimes, which included minorities, males, and ages 18-35.  Why aren't you complaining about the sexism and ageism?


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22217473 - 09/10/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"Do you still believe that there wasn't a racist element to their policing?"

No one's denying that NYC's stop and frisk policing didn't target minorities, the intention of stop and frisk was to target the demographics which are more likely to commit crimes, which included minorities, males, and ages 18-35.  Why aren't you complaining about the sexism and ageism?




Sexism and ageism are demographics that could be addressed at a different time, but right now we're talking about racism.

NYC's stop and frisk program targeted minorities, The fact that they're a "high-crime demographic" clearly wasn't the sole purpose of doing so, as I have explained, and as the report from Mr. Fagan demonstrated.

The majority of arrests made were for marijuana. You could make those arrests just as easily if you stopped and frisked white people.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22217898 - 09/10/15 05:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

stop and frisk is totally unamerican. it was a fucking travesty that it was ever allowed.  That is the kind of shit the bad guys in movies do. Next they'd have "high crime demographics" sew patches on their clothes, so the stormtroopers could more easily identify them for a frisking.


--------------------


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22218525 - 09/10/15 08:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
stop and frisk is totally unamerican. it was a fucking travesty that it was ever allowed.  That is the kind of shit the bad guys in movies do. Next they'd have "high crime demographics" sew patches on their clothes, so the stormtroopers could more easily identify them for a frisking.




It was apparently ruled unconstitutional. I can't wait to see how Donald Trump's minions intend to round up all of the illegal immigrants and ship them off. We're going to have a nation-wide 'stop and frisk'. It will be like Communist Russia, people asking for your papers everywhere you go. It's gonna be great!

I like how Donald tries to argue that it would be constitutional to deport people born here who's parents are illegals. It's written clear as day in the constitution that people born in America are citizens, but apparently in Donald's infinite wisdom that's an incorrect interpretation!

This man talks out of his ass so fucking often, he should be a fucking comedian whose main bit is to play a caricature of the Republican party.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/10/15 08:05 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22218570 - 09/10/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Do you still believe that there wasn't a racist element to their policing?"

No one's denying that NYC's stop and frisk policing didn't target minorities, the intention of stop and frisk was to target the demographics which are more likely to commit crimes, which included minorities, males, and ages 18-35.  Why aren't you complaining about the sexism and ageism?




Sexism and ageism are demographics that could be addressed at a different time, but right now we're talking about racism.

NYC's stop and frisk program targeted minorities, The fact that they're a "high-crime demographic" clearly wasn't the sole purpose of doing so, as I have explained, and as the report from Mr. Fagan demonstrated.

The majority of arrests made were for marijuana. You could make those arrests just as easily if you stopped and frisked white people.




The intention wasn't to find marijuana on the people, it was a consequence of the stop and frisk. Again, they targeted demographic groups that have a higher propensity to engage in other criminal behavior.


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22218580 - 09/10/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
stop and frisk is totally unamerican. it was a fucking travesty that it was ever allowed.  That is the kind of shit the bad guys in movies do. Next they'd have "high crime demographics" sew patches on their clothes, so the stormtroopers could more easily identify them for a frisking.




It was apparently ruled unconstitutional. I can't wait to see how Donald Trump's minions intend to round up all of the illegal immigrants and ship them off. We're going to have a nation-wide 'stop and frisk'. It will be like Communist Russia, people asking for your papers everywhere you go. It's gonna be great!

I like how Donald tries to argue that it would be constitutional to deport people born here who's parents are illegals. It's written clear as day in the constitution that people born in America are citizens, but apparently in Donald's infinite wisdom that's an incorrect interpretation!

This man talks out of his ass so fucking often, he should be a fucking comedian whose main bit is to play a caricature of the Republican party.




Anchor baby polices don't exist in any other developed nations, why should the US be the exception?  There are many ways to get illegals and the anchor children out of the US, it's just a matter of time.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22218606 - 09/10/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Anchor baby polices don't exist in any other developed nations, why should the US be the exception? 




Because America! that's why.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
Quote:

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.




Amend the Constitution if you don't like it. It wouldn't be the first time.


--------------------


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22218665 - 09/10/15 08:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Do you still believe that there wasn't a racist element to their policing?"

No one's denying that NYC's stop and frisk policing didn't target minorities, the intention of stop and frisk was to target the demographics which are more likely to commit crimes, which included minorities, males, and ages 18-35.  Why aren't you complaining about the sexism and ageism?




Sexism and ageism are demographics that could be addressed at a different time, but right now we're talking about racism.

NYC's stop and frisk program targeted minorities, The fact that they're a "high-crime demographic" clearly wasn't the sole purpose of doing so, as I have explained, and as the report from Mr. Fagan demonstrated.

The majority of arrests made were for marijuana. You could make those arrests just as easily if you stopped and frisked white people.




The intention wasn't to find marijuana on the people, it was a consequence of the stop and frisk. Again, they targeted demographic groups that have a higher propensity to engage in other criminal behavior.




Really? What was their intention? To find weapons? They find weapons a whole 0.2% of the time. You would think they'd re-jigger their methods a bit if the intended consequence only played out 0.2% of the time! You sure are good at making excuses for tyranny and oppression. Maybe Enlil can find a place for you at his legal practice. Defending dumb cunts is pretty lucrative I hear.

The point is, there really isn't much justification in targeting these 'high risk' demographics, if you have zero impact in doing so. They would have had the same impact targeting white people. It's a poor argument.

The studies showed that through targeting these demographics, they had no impact on crime rates in those areas. On top of that, they probably increased crime, because once you slap criminal records on all of these people (who are doing the same shit as everyone else), they can't get a job as easily, and they are forced to earn a living in a different manner. Like selling drugs, or some shit.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/10/15 08:46 PM)


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22218709 - 09/10/15 08:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Anchor baby polices don't exist in any other developed nations, why should the US be the exception?  There are many ways to get illegals and the anchor children out of the US, it's just a matter of time.




I'm not referring to 'anchor baby' policies. I believe virtually every country in the world makes you a citizen if you're born there. That doesn't make you an 'anchor baby'. If you had been born in Canada, you'd be a Canadian citizen. Donald Trump is trying to say that they are not citizens, just because they were born here.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22218728 - 09/10/15 08:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Do you still believe that there wasn't a racist element to their policing?"

No one's denying that NYC's stop and frisk policing didn't target minorities, the intention of stop and frisk was to target the demographics which are more likely to commit crimes, which included minorities, males, and ages 18-35.  Why aren't you complaining about the sexism and ageism?




Sexism and ageism are demographics that could be addressed at a different time, but right now we're talking about racism.

NYC's stop and frisk program targeted minorities, The fact that they're a "high-crime demographic" clearly wasn't the sole purpose of doing so, as I have explained, and as the report from Mr. Fagan demonstrated.

The majority of arrests made were for marijuana. You could make those arrests just as easily if you stopped and frisked white people.




The intention wasn't to find marijuana on the people, it was a consequence of the stop and frisk. Again, they targeted demographic groups that have a higher propensity to engage in other criminal behavior.




Really? What was their intention? To find weapons? They find weapons a whole 0.2% of the time. You would think they'd re-jigger their methods a bit if the intended consequence only played out 0.2% of the time! You sure are good at making excuses for tyranny and oppression. Maybe Enlil can find a place for you at his legal practice. Defending dumb cunts is pretty lucrative I hear.

The point is, there really isn't much justification in targeting these 'high risk' demographics, if you have zero impact in doing so. They would have had the same impact targeting white people. It's a poor argument.




I specifically stated I didn't support the policy, it had many flaws. Many like yourself are obsessed with the racial aspect while ignoring the sex and age, why so?

"They would have had the same impact targeting white people"

That's speculation, what about if they mostly targeted females?  What about mostly people over the age of 50?  Are you trying to justify the sexism and ageism aspects of the policy?


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22218796 - 09/10/15 09:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Anchor baby polices don't exist in any other developed nations, why should the US be the exception?  There are many ways to get illegals and the anchor children out of the US, it's just a matter of time.




I'm not referring to 'anchor baby' policies. I believe virtually every country in the world makes you a citizen if you're born there. That doesn't make you an 'anchor baby'. If you had been born in Canada, you'd be a Canadian citizen. Donald Trump is trying to say that they are not citizens, just because they were born here.




http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/20/u-s-almost-alone-in-granting-birthright-citizenship/

"the US and Canada are the only developed nations that grant automatic citizenship at birth to the children of illegal and temporary immigrants"

Many think Trump is correct and that being born to an illegal doesn't make the baby a US citizen, only the US and Canada are the big suckers when it comes to this policy. Anyone with any commonsense knows how illegal abuse this situation, US citizens are sick of it.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22218806 - 09/10/15 09:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

what about if they mostly targeted females?  What about mostly people over the age of 50?  Are you trying to justify the sexism and ageism aspects of the policy?





you are the only one beating that strawman.  Ageism and sexism don't negate the racism.  If anything, they are just more isms to throw on the pile.  In any event, for the purpose of debate, lets all focus on one ism at a time. after we tackle the racism, we'll all decry the sexism and ageism with you. deal?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22218826 - 09/10/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"the US and Canada are the only developed nations that grant automatic citizenship at birth to the children of illegal and temporary immigrants"

Many think Trump is correct and that being born to an illegal doesn't make the baby a US citizen, only the US and Canada are the big suckers when it comes to this policy. Anyone with any commonsense knows how illegal abuse this situation, US citizens are sick of it.




Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

qman said:
Anchor baby polices don't exist in any other developed nations, why should the US be the exception? 




Because America! that's why.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
Quote:

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.




Amend the Constitution if you don't like it. It wouldn't be the first time.




If enough people agreed with you, the law could change to reflect that view :shrug:


--------------------


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22218835 - 09/10/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Sexism and ageism are demographics that could be addressed at a different time, but right now we're talking about racism.

NYC's stop and frisk program targeted minorities, The fact that they're a "high-crime demographic" clearly wasn't the sole purpose of doing so, as I have explained, and as the report from Mr. Fagan demonstrated.

The majority of arrests made were for marijuana. You could make those arrests just as easily if you stopped and frisked white people.




The intention wasn't to find marijuana on the people, it was a consequence of the stop and frisk. Again, they targeted demographic groups that have a higher propensity to engage in other criminal behavior.




Really? What was their intention? To find weapons? They find weapons a whole 0.2% of the time. You would think they'd re-jigger their methods a bit if the intended consequence only played out 0.2% of the time! You sure are good at making excuses for tyranny and oppression. Maybe Enlil can find a place for you at his legal practice. Defending dumb cunts is pretty lucrative I hear.

The point is, there really isn't much justification in targeting these 'high risk' demographics, if you have zero impact in doing so. They would have had the same impact targeting white people. It's a poor argument.




I specifically stated I didn't support the policy, it had many flaws. Many like yourself are obsessed with the racial aspect while ignoring the sex and age, why so?

"They would have had the same impact targeting white people"

That's speculation, what about if they mostly targeted females?  What about mostly people over the age of 50?  Are you trying to justify the sexism and ageism aspects of the policy?




Stop deflecting. We're talking about racism. We don't have to discuss everything under the sun to discuss racism.

It's not speculation. Considering they had no appreciable positive impact on crime rates, and they busted a bunch of people for having a bag of weed in their pocket, it's just obvious. If targeting a high crime demographic reduced crime rates, it may have a different impact than targeting white folks.

This whole thing comes back around to sort of a chicken and egg question also. Were minority groups high crime demographics before we started targeting them, or after? Which also begs the question, does the criminal justice system reduce crime, or increase crime in those who find themselves wrapped up in it, and why? It seems to me that the way we practice criminal justice here in the US actually perpetuates crime in many ways.

My speculation is that if you got rid of the war on drugs, you would see an all around reduction in crime amongst these


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/10/15 09:17 PM)


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22220556 - 09/11/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
This whole thing comes back around to sort of a chicken and egg question also. Were minority groups high crime demographics before we started targeting them, or after? Which also begs the question, does the criminal justice system reduce crime, or increase crime in those who find themselves wrapped up in it, and why? It seems to me that the way we practice criminal justice here in the US actually perpetuates crime in many ways.





When we make criminality a commodity we end up with a very unjust system.  We see this in asset forfeiture from the drug war as well as policies surrounding for profit prisons.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22220829 - 09/11/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Sexism and ageism are demographics that could be addressed at a different time, but right now we're talking about racism.

NYC's stop and frisk program targeted minorities, The fact that they're a "high-crime demographic" clearly wasn't the sole purpose of doing so, as I have explained, and as the report from Mr. Fagan demonstrated.

The majority of arrests made were for marijuana. You could make those arrests just as easily if you stopped and frisked white people.




The intention wasn't to find marijuana on the people, it was a consequence of the stop and frisk. Again, they targeted demographic groups that have a higher propensity to engage in other criminal behavior.




Really? What was their intention? To find weapons? They find weapons a whole 0.2% of the time. You would think they'd re-jigger their methods a bit if the intended consequence only played out 0.2% of the time! You sure are good at making excuses for tyranny and oppression. Maybe Enlil can find a place for you at his legal practice. Defending dumb cunts is pretty lucrative I hear.

The point is, there really isn't much justification in targeting these 'high risk' demographics, if you have zero impact in doing so. They would have had the same impact targeting white people. It's a poor argument.




I specifically stated I didn't support the policy, it had many flaws. Many like yourself are obsessed with the racial aspect while ignoring the sex and age, why so?

"They would have had the same impact targeting white people"

That's speculation, what about if they mostly targeted females?  What about mostly people over the age of 50?  Are you trying to justify the sexism and ageism aspects of the policy?




We're talking about racism.

This whole thing comes back around to sort of a chicken and egg question also. Were minority groups high crime demographics before we started targeting them, or after?





:huxleyfacepalm:  How does law enforcement target murder, rape, physical assault, burglary, ect.?  These are crimes with real victims, all law enforcement does it respond to these crimes, there's nothing to target.

The fact is minorities commit those criminal acts at a massive disproportional rate relative to the general population, that has NOTHING to do with law enforcement. So to answer your question, yes these groups were already high crime demographics, law enforcement responses to serious criminal acts, nothing more.

Do those demographics now open the door to be targeted for petty crimes like drug possession, they answer is most likely yes.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22220870 - 09/11/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Stop and frisk had nothing to do with drugs but I got an idea.  Don't be a surreptitious idot if you are carrying some.  Act casual.  Stop and frisk was for weapons.  Do you know why more Negroes were stopped?  Because they live in high crime areas where gun violence is rampant.  Do you know who most of the violent shits target?  Other Negroes.  And yes, there was a demonstrable decline in crime and there is now a demonstrable increase since it has been curtailed.  This may in part be due to the race baiting President, the race baiting press and the idiot attorney general in Baltimore.

If you want to get rid of drug busts get rid of prohibition.  If a search is improper it will get thrown out in court.  If you do not aggressively police these thugs you are going to get a lot more dead innocent Negroes.  Why do you hate innocent Negroes?


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OfflineSidestreet
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22220874 - 09/11/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
That's speculation, what about if they mostly targeted females?  What about mostly people over the age of 50?  Are you trying to justify the sexism and ageism aspects of the policy?




The difference between age, sex, and race is huge.  Young men as a demographic DO commit more crimes than people in other age and sex categories.  The explanations for this are uncontroversial and widely accepted.

However, accounting for the fact that young black men are more often arrested is a much more complicated issue.  The official intent of stop and frisk may very well have been based on the numbers, but the up-against-the-wall-motherfucker reality is another story.

Constitutional law is filled with stories of policies that are racially-neutral on their face but have a racist underlying purpose. 

The history of the nation is the answer to your question of why we're focused on race here.


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OfflineSidestreet
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22220896 - 09/11/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Act casual. 




Here are 41 stories of people who were acting casual:  https://ccrjustice.org/stories-stop-and-frisk

and really dude?  "Negroes?"


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Sidestreet] * 1
    #22220933 - 09/11/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sidestreet said:
Quote:

qman said:
That's speculation, what about if they mostly targeted females?  What about mostly people over the age of 50?  Are you trying to justify the sexism and ageism aspects of the policy?




The difference between age, sex, and race is huge.  Young men as a demographic DO commit more crimes than people in other age and sex categories.  The explanations for this are uncontroversial and widely accepted.

However, accounting for the fact that young black men are more often arrested is a much more complicated issue.  The official intent of stop and frisk may very well have been based on the numbers, but the up-against-the-wall-motherfucker reality is another story.

Constitutional law is filled with stories of policies that are racially-neutral on their face but have a racist underlying purpose. 

The history of the nation is the answer to your question of why we're focused on race here.




"Young men as a demographic DO commit more crimes than people in other age and sex categories. The explanations for this are uncontroversial and widely accepted."

Black men as a demographic DO commit more crimes than people in other race categories. The explanations for this are CONTROVERSIAL and widely accepted.

Do you see the hypocrisy?  It's OK to recognize that sex and age are correlated to higher crime rates, but not race.  The fact is that all three are key factors, just because some people don't want to recognize the race plays a major role doesn't make it not true.


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