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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22199175 - 09/06/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If it's a choice between letting him go and killing him, I say let him go.  Cops frankly shouldn't even be armed with lethal weapons when on duty.




Can you elaborate on why you feel that way? Personally, I think that would dangerously limit the ability of officers respond quickly to a gun wielding, disgruntled person or other life-threatening situation. I agree that the militarization of our police forces is troubling, and even more troubling are the uses of deadly force where it isn't absolutely necessary, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they shouldn't have guns during active duty.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22199791 - 09/06/15 09:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

They should do much more police training then what they do. If an american soldier in a war zone can at least fire a warning shot to try and eter someone, police should be able to do the same. Police should also be trained better in how to deescalate situations. When not to use force, and to choose non lethal alternatives unless absolutely necessary.

Guns are supposed to be a last resort, not something you grab in an instance. Taking a job as a police officer means to protect and serve the public, not yourself. The lives of civilians should be protected. It's their job.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22199976 - 09/06/15 10:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I agree completely. Not sure if you're a John Oliver fan, but I think he did a decent job talking about police militarization in this bit:



--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22199986 - 09/06/15 10:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
They should do much more police training then what they do. If an american soldier in a war zone can at least fire a warning shot to try and eter someone, police should be able to do the same. Police should also be trained better in how to deescalate situations. When not to use force, and to choose non lethal alternatives unless absolutely necessary.

Guns are supposed to be a last resort, not something you grab in an instance. Taking a job as a police officer means to protect and serve the public, not yourself. The lives of civilians should be protected. It's their job.




I dont think they're trained to deescalate situations at all anymore. I used to live in a somewhat rough neighborhood, and all I've really seen from police is escalation. In fact, it was generally better not to call the police, especially in violent situations, because they would make things worse. I have a friend who has a felony because of a blatantly false police report, and he's forced to work shitty minimum wage jobs for the forseable future.

In Ferguson they arrested Washington post journalists in a McDonalds for doing their job and they were taking their camera's and pointing them at the ground/knocking them over. They were sensoring the press, essentially.

Maybe guns are acceptable, but riot gear and tear gas are not.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22200004 - 09/06/15 11:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Maybe guns are acceptable, but riot gear and tear gas are not.




I think the police need to be equipped with all the tools necessary to do their job safely and effectively. I think riot gear is certainly called for in some situations and police should have it available.

Machine guns and armored vehicles, that's the kind of thing that our police forces don't need, especially without the proper training.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22200019 - 09/06/15 11:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Maybe guns are acceptable, but riot gear and tear gas are not.




I think the police need to be equipped with all the tools necessary to do their job safely and effectively. I think riot gear is certainly called for in some situations and police should have it available.

Machine guns and armored vehicles, that's the kind of thing that our police forces don't need, especially without the proper training.




Tear gas is unnecessary, and generally so is riot gear. They use this shit on peaceful protestors. There was a retired marine in an occupy protest who got shot directly in the head with a bean bag, and while he was laying on the ground they fired tear gas at people coming to help him (and him). He had to come home from Iraq to receive his permanent brain damage. He is brain fucked now, and he didnt do anything wrong. None of them did.

Tear gas has been deamed a chemical weapon banned from international conflict for over 20 years.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22200348 - 09/07/15 01:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Maybe guns are acceptable, but riot gear and tear gas are not.




I think the police need to be equipped with all the tools necessary to do their job safely and effectively. I think riot gear is certainly called for in some situations and police should have it available.

Machine guns and armored vehicles, that's the kind of thing that our police forces don't need, especially without the proper training.




Tear gas is unnecessary, and generally so is riot gear. They use this shit on peaceful protestors. There was a retired marine in an occupy protest who got shot directly in the head with a bean bag, and while he was laying on the ground they fired tear gas at people coming to help him (and him). He had to come home from Iraq to receive his permanent brain damage. He is brain fucked now, and he didnt do anything wrong. None of them did.

Tear gas has been deamed a chemical weapon banned from international conflict for over 20 years.




I was talking specifically about riot gear, not tear gas. But I think the issues that you bring up are all related to training. I think riot gear can be necessary to disperse dangerous crowds if trained on proper usage. Again, I want much more training for our police forces, but I also want them to have the tools necessary to do their jobs.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22200433 - 09/07/15 02:08 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I was talking specifically about riot gear, not tear gas. But I think the issues that you bring up are all related to training. I think riot gear can be necessary to disperse dangerous crowds if trained on proper usage. Again, I want much more training for our police forces, but I also want them to have the tools necessary to do their jobs.




I generally agree with that, and I actually believe that tear gas can be used as an effective tool to disperse actual riots also. Enlil is right that this country needs FAR less police officers. I believe we have the most police officers in the world, but that may not be correct. There should be more training, and also laws in place to prevent the use of violence against peaceful protesters.

Something should be done about police quotas, and reliance on fine money as a main source of revenue for government also.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/07/15 02:11 AM)


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22200493 - 09/07/15 02:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Well, getting rid of for profit prisons would be a good start for sure. Bernie's the guy!


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22200727 - 09/07/15 06:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Again, enlil makes an unsupported statement backed up by nothing as his evidence. 'the cop said...'


--------------------
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Onlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22200850 - 09/07/15 07:48 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Maybe guns are acceptable, but riot gear and tear gas are not.




I think the police need to be equipped with all the tools necessary to do their job safely and effectively. I think riot gear is certainly called for in some situations and police should have it available.

Machine guns and armored vehicles, that's the kind of thing that our police forces don't need, especially without the proper training.




Tear gas is unnecessary, and generally so is riot gear. They use this shit on peaceful protestors. There was a retired marine in an occupy protest who got shot directly in the head with a bean bag, and while he was laying on the ground they fired tear gas at people coming to help him (and him). He had to come home from Iraq to receive his permanent brain damage. He is brain fucked now, and he didnt do anything wrong. None of them did.

Tear gas has been deamed a chemical weapon banned from international conflict for over 20 years.




Do you have a memory issue?  Did you forget about the riots in Ferguson?  What about Baltimore?

During a riot cops do need riot gear, do bad things happen to innocent people when large groups start destroying and burning down their own community?  Yes they do.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22200932 - 09/07/15 08:20 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

The riots in Ferguson where sparked by police escalation.  If a cop let his dog piss on my son's memorial I'd lose my shit too.

Peace keepers should foremost keep the peace.  If they can't we have the national guard.

U.K. cops do just fine without guns.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Onlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22200963 - 09/07/15 08:29 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The riots in Ferguson where sparked by police escalation. 




No. it started after the people didn't like the decision made by the grand jury in the Brown case, how is that "sparked by police escalation"?

BTW, their frustration was based on lies and misinformation from Brown's friend, who lied about the events that day.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22200971 - 09/07/15 08:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

What ever happened to tasing and macing people? Isn't the whole purpose of nonlethal weapons is being able to subdue a violent suspect without being lethal?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22201011 - 09/07/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Again, enlil makes an unsupported statement backed up by nothing as his evidence. 'the cop said...'



So, you don't think that eyewitness testimony is evidence?  The cop admitted that Brown ran away and he chased him.  You can call the cop a liar if you want, but I see no reason not to believe him.  Either way, that is strong evidence that Brown ran away and the cop chased him.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22201031 - 09/07/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The riots in Ferguson where sparked by police escalation. 




No. it started after the people didn't like the decision made by the grand jury in the Brown case, how is that "sparked by police escalation"?




The police could have done many things to deescalate the situation.  Instead this is what happened.

August 9th 2014
On August 9, the evening of the shooting, residents had created a makeshift memorial of flowers and candles in the spot where Brown died. An unidentified policeman reportedly allowed a dog under his control to urinate on the memorial. Police vehicles later crushed the memorial.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Onlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22201074 - 09/07/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The riots in Ferguson where sparked by police escalation. 




No. it started after the people didn't like the decision made by the grand jury in the Brown case, how is that "sparked by police escalation"?




The police could have done many things to deescalate the situation.  Instead this is what happened.

August 9th 2014
On August 9, the evening of the shooting, residents had created a makeshift memorial of flowers and candles in the spot where Brown died. An unidentified policeman reportedly allowed a dog under his control to urinate on the memorial. Police vehicles later crushed the memorial.




"unidentified, reportedly" "Police vehicles later crushed the memorial"

Come on, give us your link if you're not too embarrassed. 

Again, did you forget what started the riots? I clearly stated it.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22201085 - 09/07/15 08:59 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:


Can you elaborate on why you feel that way? Personally, I think that would dangerously limit the ability of officers respond quickly to a gun wielding, disgruntled person or other life-threatening situation.



Sure, but I don't see that as the prime purpose of police.  The guy with a gun shooting people in the street while a cop responds is a very rare occurence.  Why does a police need a gun for a traffic stop?  Or for a drunk and disorderly?  There is no reason that the police can't have a specified procedure for bringing out the weapons in situations that require them.

Today, the lethal weapon is the primary tool for handling uncooperative citizens.  That is unacceptable.  Having a gun on your side means that gun gets drawn when tempers flare and people get angry.  More drawn guns means more people getting shot that didn't need to.  If the cop didn't have the gun so readily available, that would be reduced.

If your argument is that police firearms are mostly for public safety, I'm going to need something to back that up.  To me, it looks like police carry firearms for police safety.


--------------------
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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22201098 - 09/07/15 09:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Onlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 9 minutes
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22201183 - 09/07/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Sure.




Even if those events did take, it hardly justifies a violent response.


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