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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22192826 - 09/05/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Ideology is what guides conservativism and liberalism.

Aside from that you should re-read what I wrote, because you have misrepresented virtually everything I said.

Also, the ACA is not Liberal. A single payer system would be Liberal. The ACA is the conservative approach. If Romney had been president we would have the ACA.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22192833 - 09/05/15 01:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Exactly. Noam Chomsky used to work at MIT too, didn't he? lol

That Cheetah thing is impressive.




Yeah he did.

Have you heard him talk about Obama's drone strikes?  He's very critical of them.

@Stoney, here's Chomsky explaining how Obama is a centrist.



--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22192943 - 09/05/15 02:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

>@Stoney, here's Chomsky explaining how Obama is a centrist.

Woof says he is a right wing conservative. You guys should get your story straight. The world sees him as an incompetent liberal.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22192957 - 09/05/15 02:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>@Stoney, here's Chomsky explaining how Obama is a centrist.

Woof says he is a right wing conservative. You guys should get your story straight. The world sees him as an incompetent liberal.




No the world doesn't, you do! You're the only person I've talked to about Obama that thinks he's a Liberal. You don't even know the meaning of the word Liberal.

A Liberal would have ended the wars wherever possible, not signed the TPP, created a single payer system, quite the bush tax cuts, quite NSA spying and torture, broken up the big banks and put regulations back in place, etc. If he were a Liberal he would have created jobs by rebuilding our infrastructure, instead of espousing trickle-down economics and too big to fail.

Obama's not a fucking Liberal. How is he Liberal? Make your case. It better include more than one point about immigration too.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/05/15 02:23 PM)


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22192975 - 09/05/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Chomsky is an idiot when he steps outside of his field.  He should stick to linguistics and stay out of political theory.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22193019 - 09/05/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

A neoliberal according to Cornel West.  That puts him in the same ring as Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Chomsky is an idiot when he steps outside of his field.  He should stick to linguistics and stay out of political theory.




I like him.  He has a much broader view of the world than I do and he's critical of the U.S.  As someone that was indoctrinated in U.S. patriotism at a very young age I like a healthy dose of U.S. criticism.

But please explain how he's an idiot and what it is you disagree with?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22193043 - 09/05/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Chomsky is an idiot when he steps outside of his field.  He should stick to linguistics and stay out of political theory.




Well that's a really stupid thing to say. Chomsky is a celebrated author for writing about political theory. It has become his field, and to be honest, I believe everyone should be encouraged to discuss politics. Not just the 'elites' who've been formally educated in the subject.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22193062 - 09/05/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Just stop already, you are embarrassing yourself and making all loony left wingers look stupid. You say the recession ended in '09? I've got news for you, its still going no matter how much they cook the books and lie about unemployment. The rich are doing great but the middle class and poor are not doing well at all.




I promised myself I was going to drop this topic because  think I've said what I needed, and would just be repeating myself to continue...

Are you seriously trying to tell me your life was better after 9/11, after the patriot act, the mortgage crisis, government bailouts, the displaced hurricane survivors had to migrate else where putting strains on those states social resources?
...These are not argument points for a "loony lefty" these are actual historical events that impacted my life, so When I say shit was hard under W. Bush, but things are generally better now, and I didn't form that opinion after reading economic statistics or diving into study of economic policies, I lived it (which is why I say my views are subjective)... I saw how things were then compared to now.

When I was speaking about "the great recession" that was a global  event, largely triggered by events occurring in the United states, so you can have your statistics and charts relating to the United states role in the recession, and it would only be covering a fraction of the recession I'm talking about, and when globally things are a mess they tend to be rough locally as well.


You may say it never ended, but look how it started. (Look before Bush even, because Reagan set the stage for all this)

You say the middle class and lower classes are struggling, yet you support conservative politics which wants to eliminate all social programs helping these poor people, they complain about Obama care but I'm sure if they were in need of medical help and without insurance they would be complaining about how the government isn't doing something about it, and yes there were flaws with the initial program, but the goal is HELPING lower and middle classes, the conservatives call these people "moochers looking for a hand out", they want to rig everything to favor the wealthiest at the lower and middle classes expense, the right doesn't care about lower classes, so defense of the lower classes is a bad conseritive argument.

All I said was things are better than under W. Bush, that doesn't mean I'm saying Obama solved all our problems, it just means the state of things has improved since, and this is based off the quality of my life and the people's lives in the community around me, I'm living better, they are living better, business are doing better....do you remember when everybody was afraid to spend any money, so in turn businesses were failing? I don't see that happening now, see its simple observations that any person can make, this is all I was saying.

Every time the right gets called on their bullshit they say "we are not wrong, those are leftist pinko lies meant to discredit conservatives", that's not a productive way to proceed, for as pretentious as I am I still change my views when confronted with evidence proving them wrong.

Fuck left or right, we need to sit down and find the most reasonable solutions to these problems free from petty partisan filters, we need to do what's best for the American people and the global community, and that can't be done if we continue with this "us vs. Them" mentality of governing....

Good legislation will get killed just to spite the other party, the republicans shutdown congress over this shit, and not because it was what was best for the American people, but simply to spite the other party, this is no way to govern a nation...

-E. Borodin


Edited by Coincidentiaoppositorum (09/05/15 02:54 PM)


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22193079 - 09/05/15 02:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Woof, if liberals do all those great things, tell me who the liberal presidents were? If obumble was a con, Clinton bombed all those countries, who is your liberal example? If obumble is a conservative, why did the dems nominate him and do it again? Are the dems conservatives too? I asked you that but no answer.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22193086 - 09/05/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry there's a good deal of typos in my last post that I'm too tired to edit  so I apologize for that, touch screen keyboard and autocorrect can really interfered if your not paying attention...

-E. Borodin


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22193176 - 09/05/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Chomsky is an idiot when he steps outside of his field.  He should stick to linguistics and stay out of political theory.




Agreed. Dershowitz is a hack, too.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22193331 - 09/05/15 04:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Woof, if liberals do all those great things, tell me who the liberal presidents were? If obumble was a con, Clinton bombed all those countries, who is your liberal example? If obumble is a conservative, why did the dems nominate him and do it again? Are the dems conservatives too? I asked you that but no answer.




Roosevelt and Eisenhower were more liberal than Obama, and Eisenhower was a GOP member.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22193446 - 09/05/15 04:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, right. You haven't answered the question of are the dems conservatives, in your opinion? Everyone looks conservative when you are that far to the left, don't they?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22193536 - 09/05/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Yeah, right. You haven't answered the question of are the dems conservatives, in your opinion? Everyone looks conservative when you are that far to the left, don't they?




It's not really controversial that America's politicians have been moving to the right for decades. Interestingly enough, the majority of the American public has been moving to the left. Then you have fringe right wing groups like the Teabaggers who have broken off to the far right. Hopefully we will see a similar far left group break off of the Dem party, and have a 4 party system.

Tell me what Obama has done that is so Liberal? Immigration aside. What is Liberal about Obama?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/05/15 04:50 PM)


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22193575 - 09/05/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Does all that mean you say the dems are conservative? Yes or no?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22193620 - 09/05/15 05:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Does all that mean you say the dems are conservative? Yes or no?




I think the majority of them have become centrists. Liberal on Social issues, and conservative on economic issues. Then there are some who have crossed over to the more conservative end of the arena, and a few outliers like Elizabeth Warren, Allen Grayson, and Bernie Sanders on the left.

It's not a yes or no question. I've answered it several pretty clear ways. Would you answer my question?

Quote:

Tell me what Obama has done that is so Liberal? Immigration aside. What is Liberal about Obama?




--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (09/05/15 05:10 PM)


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22193638 - 09/05/15 05:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

>It's no a yes or no question, I've answered it several pretty clear ways

Lol, still no yes or no. Or are you saying no? When you get essay type answers to a yes or no question, you know what that bad smell is.

>Tell me what Obama has done that is so Liberal? Immigration aside. What is Liberal about Obama?

Immigration is one, being a racist asshole is another, pandering to the welfare crowd is another. Then there is his socialistic aca, badly written and fumbled, much like the man himself.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22193694 - 09/05/15 05:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>It's no a yes or no question, I've answered it several pretty clear ways

Lol, still no yes or no. Or are you saying no? When you get essay type answers to a yes or no question, you know what that bad smell is.

>Tell me what Obama has done that is so Liberal? Immigration aside. What is Liberal about Obama?

Immigration is one, being a racist asshole is another, pandering to the welfare crowd is another. Then there is his socialistic aca, badly written and fumbled, much like the man himself.




Ok, so basically you have nothing. The ACA is a conservative plan all the way, btw. That's not Socialist.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22194457 - 09/05/15 08:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

This may seem like a dumb question but:

What was the rationalization between a party system?

Why didnt people with good political solutions start running on the viability of those solutions and who ever has the best ideas will get the votes?

Why sperate parties with set ideology, and not just politicians running as themselves?

Is it that the people want to be able to vote on the ideology they prefer without ever getting to know the actual politician?

They get a cookie-cutter set of standards and philosophy to attach to the politicians by putting a "d" or an "r" next to their name...most people vote for the party not the actual politician...Obama would have lost had he run as a republican just because after 8 years of W. Bush people wanted "change"

The party system may be the biggest detriment to democracy ever conceived, well that and the government whoring itself out to big money.

...I want to be an optimist, but the day I heard trump was running for president it made me wish that there were other planets I could go live on, and now that trump is gaining a good deal of popularity, it's made me wish there was a different galaxy I could live in...if trump or another Bush gets elected it's going to make me wish I could live in a different universe

Every time I turn on CNN all I hear about is trump, but it is always some insignificant thing, an off comment he made or a bizzare policy proposal, we don't even get to hear from anyone discussing actual serious viable realistic solutions or even real politics, Washington DC has become a bizzare media freak show rather than a forum of political innovations.

I try to be optimistic, but I'm not happy about any of the candidates, I kind of like Bernie, but I don't think people want a smart politician, they want an ape to do their and their parties bidding and tell them the things they want to hear.

How much longer can this go on like this? We all think the system is meta-stable, and that we can keep stressing it with out it breaking...

I think we had so much opportunity, a country built by revolutionaries giving rights and freedoms to the common man, no royalty, no kings and queens, but a nation of people working together as equals, all with equal rights and freedoms...

...and now it seems like we are back to the ruling class style system, not kings or queens, but billionaires and monster corporations.

When I talk to people who are more on the left I hear them concerned about the welfare of the people in their country, they want to expand welfare, and food stamps, they want to give every American insurance and access to medical treatment, they want to legalize marijuana, they want to end wars (well not any more, democrat or republican they all seem in favor of endless war... it reminds me of 1984, how there was constant war.) They want to give gays rights, they are concerned about mistreatment of immigrants, all their agendas seem to involve is solving political problems involving people who need help...

I understand that governing a nation is the hardest thing humans have to do...but it's also something that should be treated as a responsibility and an obligation to serve the people...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFuvND94L-M


-E. Borodin


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22194675 - 09/05/15 09:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Obumble is a liberal hack, he supports negroes at every turn, even criminals like travor martin, etc etc. Never said a word when whites are victims of crime. Never said a word about the white americans in Europe who disarmed that nut with a gun who was killing people. If it had been American negroes who did it, you can bet he would have made a whole speech about it. But white folks can pound sand, that's his attitude.

He is in favor of letting the illegals in, letting them stay, letting them get drivers licenses, winks at illegal voting. He is of course against voter id, that makes it harder for illegal bums to vote for more handouts from the dems.

Then we see loony leftists saying he is a conservative right winger. Uh huh, and I'm santa claus.




Firstly, if you really think about it, letting illegals in the country is a political stance more in-line with conservative philosophy than liberal. The reason Republicans don't support immigration is because they are a bunch of racists, but it does fall in line with their ideology. Immigration is good for big business because it drives wages down and boosts profits for big business. I really don't understand how this has become a left wing issue, but a true Liberal, like Bernie Sanders, does not support illegal immigration, and I don't either.

Obama has continued virtually every shitty thing that Bush did, but he also created the conservative healthcare program. He's like a conservative president who talks like a liberal, sometimes.

My point was simple and clear about Obama. Being the first black president is symbolic of progressive succeed. It's demonstrative of the fact that our nation is 'progressing' on race issues.

The only way anyone can say that he set progressivism back is the fact that he is a conservative with a blue shirt on. The fact of the matter is, if hillary had been elected it would have been worse. She would have dishearted liberals more than Obama.

Bernie is the man Obama should have been, and the country is starting to see that.




"The reason Republicans don't support (illegal) immigration is because they are a bunch of racists"

Like who?  Eric Cantor-  House Majority Leader- who got voted out in his own primary because of his pro illegal immigration policy.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Cantor

What about McCain and Jeb?  :lol:

News Alert!!  Republican politicians are for illegal immigration, conservative voters are against it

Sorry to bust your Obama progressive party-fest, but spewing liberal rhetoric for 8 years and then doing the complete opposite is a massive step backwards.

"our nation is progressing on race issues"

What are you smoking?  Since Obama entered office the US has gone backwards 30-40 years on race relation, who rock have you been living under?


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