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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22120648 - 08/21/15 03:41 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
A hair follicle test can show up past three months of drug use.




I guess that could work, if you made it the drug abuser's job to pay for regular hair tests for a certain period of time.

I'm more concerned with severely mentally ill people, like paranoid schizophrenics, and violent murderers, etc. These people probably shouldnt have guns.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22121465 - 08/21/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I define drug/alcohol problems as committing drug related crimes.  And I mean this in the sense of a larger conversation where the drug war has ended.  If you drive drunk you shouldn't be able to use a firearm.  If you use a firearm drunk you shouldn't be able to use a firearm.

Essentially I believe firearms should require a license similar to motor vehicles.  The later we licence because irresponsible use leads to property damage and loss of life.  The former generally just loss of life.  If you demonstrate that you're irresponsible you shouldn't get to have a gun.

Mental illness I figure falls in line with eye tests.  If you're not mentally competent you shouldn't get to own firearms.

Violent crimes should also disqualify you from firearms licences.  If you beat your wife and get a misdemeanor assault or domestic violence charge your licence should be revoked.  We already do this for felonies, even non-violent ones I believe (maybe this is more of a state statute where I grew up?)

So if it's a right we're already revoking that right in certain instances.  I'd like to see that expanded and for gun safes, trigger locks, and ammo safes to be mandatory, especially in homes with kids.  This is firearm 'insurance' for society.

Now I have no idea how to enforce this stuff or how to remove guns from people that already demonstrate that they're violent or irresponsible.  But expansion of background checks and safety requirements (safes etc.) on new firearm purchases would be a good direction to go, in my opinion, for future generations.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22121581 - 08/21/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I define drug/alcohol problems as committing drug related crimes.  And I mean this in the sense of a larger conversation where the drug war has ended.  If you drive drunk you shouldn't be able to use a firearm.  If you use a firearm drunk you shouldn't be able to use a firearm.

Essentially I believe firearms should require a license similar to motor vehicles.  The later we licence because irresponsible use leads to property damage and loss of life.  The former generally just loss of life.  If you demonstrate that you're irresponsible you shouldn't get to have a gun.

Mental illness I figure falls in line with eye tests.  If you're not mentally competent you shouldn't get to own firearms.

Violent crimes should also disqualify you from firearms licences.  If you beat your wife and get a misdemeanor assault or domestic violence charge your licence should be revoked.  We already do this for felonies, even non-violent ones I believe (maybe this is more of a state statute where I grew up?)

So if it's a right we're already revoking that right in certain instances.  I'd like to see that expanded and for gun safes, trigger locks, and ammo safes to be mandatory, especially in homes with kids.  This is firearm 'insurance' for society.

Now I have no idea how to enforce this stuff or how to remove guns from people that already demonstrate that they're violent or irresponsible.  But expansion of background checks and safety requirements (safes etc.) on new firearm purchases would be a good direction to go, in my opinion, for future generations.




Criminals don't follow gun laws and don't do background checks.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22121606 - 08/21/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Criminals drive without licences too but we still require them.

And honestly, my biggest concern isn't criminals.  I live in the burbs.  I'm more concerned with a teenager bringing daddies 9mm to school and one of my kids getting shot, rather accidentally or intentionally.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22121614 - 08/21/15 10:06 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>If you beat your wife and get a misdemeanor assault or domestic violence charge your licence should be revoked.

I was with you up to this point. Cops are instructed, due to political correctness, to always make an arrest whenever there is an accusation of domestic violence. They have to arrest either the man or woman and naturally believe the woman and arrest the man. Now you want them, simply for being charged, to lose their license. That is not right.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22121626 - 08/21/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Change charge to conviction.  I'm still waking up.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22121678 - 08/21/15 10:25 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I define drug/alcohol problems as committing drug related crimes.  And I mean this in the sense of a larger conversation where the drug war has ended.  If you drive drunk you shouldn't be able to use a firearm.  If you use a firearm drunk you shouldn't be able to use a firearm.

Essentially I believe firearms should require a license similar to motor vehicles.  The later we licence because irresponsible use leads to property damage and loss of life.  The former generally just loss of life.  If you demonstrate that you're irresponsible you shouldn't get to have a gun.

Mental illness I figure falls in line with eye tests.  If you're not mentally competent you shouldn't get to own firearms.

Violent crimes should also disqualify you from firearms licences.  If you beat your wife and get a misdemeanor assault or domestic violence charge your licence should be revoked.  We already do this for felonies, even non-violent ones I believe (maybe this is more of a state statute where I grew up?)

So if it's a right we're already revoking that right in certain instances.  I'd like to see that expanded and for gun safes, trigger locks, and ammo safes to be mandatory, especially in homes with kids.  This is firearm 'insurance' for society.

Now I have no idea how to enforce this stuff or how to remove guns from people that already demonstrate that they're violent or irresponsible.  But expansion of background checks and safety requirements (safes etc.) on new firearm purchases would be a good direction to go, in my opinion, for future generations.




Criminals don't follow gun laws and don't do background checks.




When they get caught, it's even worse for them.

You can't stop a guy for becoming a criminal, but you sure can lock em up longer if they constantly show a disregard to the law.


--------------------


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Patlal]
    #22121707 - 08/21/15 10:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Expanding the background check system would also make it harder for criminals to get guns.  No it won't stop black market gun deals.  But it still makes it harder.

Anyway most people on the left, in my experience, aren't expecting to take away everyone's guns.  There's so many guns already out in the country that it would be a ridiculous task even for those that are in favor of such drastic measures.  But we can take steps towards finding a middle ground between responsible gun ownership and having a safer society.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22121836 - 08/21/15 11:05 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Expanding the background check system would also make it harder for criminals to get guns.  No it won't stop black market gun deals.  But it still makes it harder.
.




No, it just makes it harder for law abiding citizens to be able to own guns.

There's zero evidence of background checks disabling the black market for guns.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22122067 - 08/21/15 11:40 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
But it still makes it harder.




For the non-criminal. It won't affect the criminals.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22122115 - 08/21/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Expanding the background check system would also make it harder for criminals to get guns.  No it won't stop black market gun deals.  But it still makes it harder.
.




No, it just makes it harder for law abiding citizens to be able to own guns.

There's zero evidence of background checks disabling the black market for guns.




I said nothing of disabling.  I said harder.  And yes, it will make it harder.  Believe it or not not every criminal can tap the black market easily and get whatever the fuck they want.

Shit, I'm a criminal, I smoke weed in a state where it's illegal.  I've also been out of weed for a month.  The drug war is making it harder for me to get weed.  If I lived in CO I would have no problems.

You can pretend stricter gun regulation does nothing.  This seems to be your argument.  But it's bullshit.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22122141 - 08/21/15 12:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

You just walk around in the ghetto screaming: GUN! DOES ANYBODY HAVE A GUN FOR SALE. I WANNA BUY A GUN!!

They'll walk right up to you and open their trench coat filled wiith guns, throwing knives and grenades and ask you which one you want.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22122188 - 08/21/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Expanding the background check system would also make it harder for criminals to get guns.  No it won't stop black market gun deals.  But it still makes it harder.
.




No, it just makes it harder for law abiding citizens to be able to own guns.

There's zero evidence of background checks disabling the black market for guns.




I said nothing of disabling.  I said harder.  And yes, it will make it harder.  Believe it or not not every criminal can tap the black market easily and get whatever the fuck they want.

Shit, I'm a criminal, I smoke weed in a state where it's illegal.  I've also been out of weed for a month.  The drug war is making it harder for me to get weed.  If I lived in CO I would have no problems.

You can pretend stricter gun regulation does nothing.  This seems to be your argument.  But it's bullshit.




"it will make it harder"

Proof?  Members of criminal gangs (not weed smokers like yourself :rofl2:) will never have an issue obtaining a gun.

You live in a fantasy world, we are not talking about naive 25 year old white boys looking for an illegal gun in the big bad city. :facepalm: 

Guess what?  Like all black markets, it's about the MONEY!!!  You're completely clueless.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
    #22122238 - 08/21/15 12:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Oh so now by criminals we only mean rich criminals and gangs?  I think you're moving the goalpost because you know your argument has no substance.

No, I don't live in a fantasy world where I believe that gun regulation will magically make the 310 million guns already owned in this country disappear.  But if it prevents an abusive husband from going down and picking up a firearm from Wal-Mart and and killing his wife and kids when she leaves him I call that an improvement.  Shit if it gives her the peace of mind to leave the piece of shit that alone is an improvement.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleAstral Pain
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Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22122255 - 08/21/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Criminals drive without licences too but we still require them.

And honestly, my biggest concern isn't criminals.  I live in the burbs.  I'm more concerned with a teenager bringing daddies 9mm to school and one of my kids getting shot, rather accidentally or intentionally.




Concealed Carry definition
-The practice of carrying a concealed firearm on one's person in public.

A) Would you feel safer living in a gun free zone or a conceal carry city?

B)If you were a criminal with a gun, would you rather rob someone in a gun free zone, or a conceal carry city?


--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Posts: 1,888
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Astral Pain]
    #22122288 - 08/21/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I would feel safer in a gun free zone.  Knowing that someone could go off half-cocked with road rage and pull a weapon on me does not make me feel safe.  Knowing that I could say the wrong thing to someone at a bar and have a weapon pulled on me does not make me feel safe.

Your argument is reduced to an armed society is a polite society and I respectfully disagree.  An armed society in my opinion is a powder keg waiting to go off.

Of course in B I agree that a gun free zone would be safer to rob people in, especially if policing was underfunded.  That said I believe there's ways to reduce the criminal element in our culture that doesn't come down to more guns for everyone.

But to turn this around on you, as a law enforcement officer where would you feel safer?  Would you be more or less likely to draw a weapon and fire it accidentally on an unarmed civilian in a gun free zone or a concealed carry zone?

Police tensions are already at an all time high.  More guns and more tension doesn't seem like the answer to me.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlineqman
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22122442 - 08/21/15 01:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Oh so now by criminals we only mean rich criminals and gangs?  I think you're moving the goalpost because you know your argument has no substance.

No, I don't live in a fantasy world where I believe that gun regulation will magically make the 310 million guns already owned in this country disappear.  But if it prevents an abusive husband from going down and picking up a firearm from Wal-Mart and and killing his wife and kids when she leaves him I call that an improvement.  Shit if it gives her the peace of mind to leave the piece of shit that alone is an improvement.




Now you're going into the theoretical world, once again, real criminals will never have a problem obtaining their illegal guns.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Astral Pain]
    #22122469 - 08/21/15 01:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Astral Pain said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Criminals drive without licences too but we still require them.

And honestly, my biggest concern isn't criminals.  I live in the burbs.  I'm more concerned with a teenager bringing daddies 9mm to school and one of my kids getting shot, rather accidentally or intentionally.




Concealed Carry definition
-The practice of carrying a concealed firearm on one's person in public.

A) Would you feel safer living in a gun free zone or a conceal carry city?

B)If you were a criminal with a gun, would you rather rob someone in a gun free zone, or a conceal carry city?




This comes down to fear. Right-wingers play on fear and emotional response, or religious affiliation, whatever strings they can tug to provoke your irrational side to follow them down the path of duurrrrr...

Anyway, I don't honestly think gun control really matters, one way or another. I think we have to appreciate the fact that we are on the verge of living in a world where people are capable of creating weapons in their living room that may be better than guns. Think 3D printers, which is just the start.

What we really need is to educate people, and reduce the poverty level. Poverty=violent crime. Also, wealth disparity=violent crime.

We need to build a society that fosters empathy and social responsibility. Capitalism does not do that. Capitalism creates a dog-eat-dog world in which everyone despises one another.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleAstral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22122485 - 08/21/15 01:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I would feel safer in a gun free zone.  Knowing that someone could go off half-cocked with road rage and pull a weapon on me does not make me feel safe.  Knowing that I could say the wrong thing to someone at a bar and have a weapon pulled on me does not make me feel safe.

Your argument is reduced to an armed society is a polite society and I respectfully disagree.  An armed society in my opinion is a powder keg waiting to go off.

Of course in B I agree that a gun free zone would be safer to rob people in, especially if policing was underfunded.  That said I believe there's ways to reduce the criminal element in our culture that doesn't come down to more guns for everyone.

But to turn this around on you, as a law enforcement officer where would you feel safer?  Would you be more or less likely to draw a weapon and fire it accidentally on an unarmed civilian in a gun free zone or a concealed carry zone?

Police tensions are already at an all time high.  More guns and more tension doesn't seem like the answer to me.






The statistics clearly show that crime is lower in concealed carry zones than gun free zones, and this is something you can easily research with a little googling. Here's just one off the top of a search.
http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/concealed-carry/

You have to take into the consideration the psychology behind the drop in crime rate in ccw areas. A criminal is less likely to even attempt a robbery in a place where he knows it is legal to carry, and has no idea if the person he is robbing or who in the vicinity may be carrying a gun legally. You said you're still waking up, and I think perhaps the MSM has gotten the better of your thought about gun ownership and crime rate.

I think at some point most of us had our head in the sand in regards to gun control/crime/ownership, and I would hope you would do a little research to get a little better understanding of the reality of the gun topic. Oh, I do believe cops would be the first of those who understand the drop in crime due to a concealed carry law in effect.


--------------------
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22122565 - 08/21/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Woof, left wingers play on fears of various kinds

>Poverty=violent crime.

Which is nonsense and has been disproven many times. We have food stamps, various forms of welfare including subsidized housing under chapter 8. We have food banks and charities. So the hoodlums committing crime are not doing it because they are hungry or have no place to sleep. They do it because they are punks and people like you coddle them and encourage them.

You want them to get out of poverty? That means a job so why are you against throwing out all the illegals and building a fence like trump wants to do? If ofumbles had said it you would probably agree.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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