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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: WAN]
    #22099229 - 08/16/15 03:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Animals are a lot less cruel than humans. They kill only to eat, we kill for sport. We kill each other to steal land, for sport, for kicks. What is obumble doing overseas dropping bombs on civilians, selling guns to others who do the same, invading, sending out drones to kill anyone looking suspicious? Animals don't do that.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22099718 - 08/16/15 05:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Animals are a lot less cruel than humans. They kill only to eat, we kill for sport. We kill each other to steal land, for sport, for kicks. What is obumble doing overseas dropping bombs on civilians, selling guns to others who do the same, invading, sending out drones to kill anyone looking suspicious? Animals don't do that.




Fuck Obama. I have seen cases of things like elephants killing rhinos for sport, and Lion's killing off the cubs when they take over a Pride.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22099761 - 08/16/15 06:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Fuck Obama.

OK

>I have seen cases of things like elephants killing rhinos for sport

Link or it didn't happen

>Lion's killing off the cubs when they take over a Pride.

Yes, they do that because they do not want to raise another lion's cubs. They want to only raise their own. After they kill off the old lion, they start again fresh.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22100140 - 08/16/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Fuck Obama.

OK

>I have seen cases of things like elephants killing rhinos for sport

Link or it didn't happen

>Lion's killing off the cubs when they take over a Pride.

Yes, they do that because they do not want to raise another lion's cubs. They want to only raise their own. After they kill off the old lion, they start again fresh.




http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941023&slug=1937416


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22100282 - 08/16/15 08:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Turned out to be 3 bad elephants. That is hardly saying many elephants do that

"Clive Walker, chairman of the Rhino and Elephant Foundation of Africa, believes the problem goes back to the childhood trauma suffered by these translocated elephants and to the lack of parental authority throughout their formative years."


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22100380 - 08/16/15 08:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Turned out to be 3 bad elephants. That is hardly saying many elephants do that

"Clive Walker, chairman of the Rhino and Elephant Foundation of Africa, believes the problem goes back to the childhood trauma suffered by these translocated elephants and to the lack of parental authority throughout their formative years."




Ok, how about baboons? They're pretty much assholes to each other, and occasionally kill each other.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22101629 - 08/17/15 06:33 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Animals eat by killing, mate by raping, and protect themselves by force.  If that is your definition of "freedom", then only the strong are free, and only while they're still strong.

The purpose of a society is so that this species can live a life less brutish, barbaric, and short.  It also allows a larger variety of human characteristics to thrive instead of only encouraging those traits focused on survival.

YOU are the one who applied the "man made" label for the purpose of devaluing something...not me.  I think man made things are wonderful and natural.  I think society and government are great human inventions, without which, there could be no advancement of the species.




I understand that humans are functioning on a separate level than animals, and perhaps that was a bad example.

Man made things can be beautiful, but in excess they are destructive, the same goes with man made systems of controlling one another, and this man made system we have now threatens to destroy the species.

the first world creates the third, the world bank loans developing third world countries money to get started, how ever they jack the interest up so high that even after the country pays their loan of they must pay the interest and become in debt, and in turn must strip their world resources as payment...

...This keeps most if the world below the poverty level and destroys nature and the environment simultaneously.

You can take man out of nature but you can't take nature out of man, the strong are still preying on the weak, and we pillage and rape the third world to maintain our status are of living...you only see this as a "just and civilized" alternative because you never leave the sphere of your privileged position with the strong in the first world.

Any way, that was a bad example, and you did make a great argument.

...Though

Quote:

The purpose of a society is so that this species can live a life less brutish, barbaric, and short.  It also allows a larger variety of human characteristics to thrive instead of only encouraging those traits focused on survival.




I don't see life lived less barbaric brutish and short for those outside of the first world.

And it's these man made systems, which can be great, but have been driven into an extreme state due to the more base instincts in humans which you are referring to.

On a personal level I'm a green-anarchist, but I'm not naive, I know it's not a possible course of action, so I'm left with working with what society gave me, the constitution is the best we have to work with, they say "the government that governs least governs best", and as you said "society is so that this species can live a life less brutish, barbaric, and short", in order to do this the masses must maintain some degree of freedom, and the degree of government your pushing towards will not achieved these desired goals that you claim society exist to achieve.

Personally I think all man made institutions are destructive in their nature, and while they can be good, in the hands of man and his desire for power, his greed, and unstoppable hubris, government should be doing as little as possible.

Is it the government's jobs to limit our property? Is it the government's job to limit our speech? Is it the government's job to assure that nothing bad will ever happen to us?

Your taking you own personal responsibility and handing it the government, and this is a gross over-reach of a man made institution...and would be a violation of your speculated principals that society is supposed to be a function to promote.

...you did do a good job on that last argument, though I'm in no way convinced of your position on the matter.

-E. Borodin


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum] * 1
    #22101723 - 08/17/15 07:24 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The third world predates the first, so how did the first create the third?

Your argument about how barbaric things are in the third world is wholly consistent with my argument that society improves the human experience and reduces such barbarism.  As the third world builds and improves their societies, that will reduce their barbarism...this is my whole point.

You tend to see government as something outside of the citizens, as if government is telling the citizens what to do.  The reality is just the opposite.  Citizens create the government as it is, and government will always be a reflection of popular consent.  You may not like it, but that's the reality.

If government is oppressive, dysfunctional, and ineffective, that's because people are all of the above.  Expecting government to reflect the best part of human nature without reflecting the flaws is naive to the point of absurdity.


--------------------
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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22101902 - 08/17/15 08:50 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You tend to see government as something outside of the citizens, as if government is telling the citizens what to do.  The reality is just the opposite.  Citizens create the government as it is, and government will always be a reflection of popular consent.  You may not like it, but that's the realit




Do you really believe that?

(By the way,The third world is a creation of the first, and always has been, you would have to go back to Neolithic Times where government did not exist at all for this to not be the case. The organized government with the largest army enjoys the highest standard of living and is responsible for the majority resource consumption at the expense of the rest of the world.

From the Egyptians to the Romans to the United states, nothing has changed.


Governments are not these benovolent institutions of the people, and their actions do not reflect the people's will. Historically Governments have exploited populations to maintain a position of power for the ruling class, and our government is no exception.

I could write pages on the topic, I would have to cover so much ground in so many areas it would take me all day, there's several interconnecting aspects to this that to go into detail on each one would be exhausting, but my views are not formed without thought, and it's my compassion for humanity, nature and the earth that motivates my politics, while most people's politics are motivated by selfishness, fear, greed or ignorance...if we can't deliver the first world standard of living to the rest of the planet than its an imbalanced way to live, it's a greedy way to live, and for every excess you enjoy a person is left deprived.)


When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. " - Jimi Hendrix


-E. Borodin


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22102099 - 08/17/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Do you really believe that?

Sadly, yes he does.

>Governments are not these benovolent institutions of the people, and their actions do not reflect the people's will. Historically Governments have exploited populations to maintain a position of power for the ruling class, and our government is no exception.

You are 100% correct and the reason is because of human nature. Once humans get any sort of power they immediately abuse it. A few will not but they are always elbowed aside by the many who want power, money and control more than life itself. That pretty much sums up our politicians and leaders. The rich control our govt, not the sheep who are manipulated by many means not the least of which is the media feeding them lies and propaganda non stop.

In theory, people will carefully research the candidates and select the best one. In theory the media will aid in that search. In practice, human nature again rears its ugly head and laziness and obedience to authority figures takes over. The bums vote for those who promise the biggest handouts and the bum enablers make sure illegal aliens vote.

The only solution is to eliminate legal bribery in all its forms. Take away the profit motive and you clean up 90% of the mess.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22104244 - 08/17/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The third world predates the first, so how did the first create the third?

Your argument about how barbaric things are in the third world is wholly consistent with my argument that society improves the human experience and reduces such barbarism.  As the third world builds and improves their societies, that will reduce their barbarism...this is my whole point.

You tend to see government as something outside of the citizens, as if government is telling the citizens what to do.  The reality is just the opposite.  Citizens create the government as it is, and government will always be a reflection of popular consent.  You may not like it, but that's the reality.

If government is oppressive, dysfunctional, and ineffective, that's because people are all of the above.  Expecting government to reflect the best part of human nature without reflecting the flaws is naive to the point of absurdity.





I absolutely believe that.  And that I think is the key difference between what I feel the problem is and what many think the problem is (with the country.)  People blame corporate influence--yet the politicians have the power to fix that, and the politicians are put in or removed from office by the people.  Therefore, the people can blame themselves when they float a turd up the Potomac.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22104281 - 08/17/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The people vote for who is put in front of them. When the two choices are between bad and worse, how do you expect them to pick a good one?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22104360 - 08/17/15 08:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The people vote for who is put in front of them. When the two choices are between bad and worse, how do you expect them to pick a good one?





I am glad to see Hillary and JEB~~!~! sucking shit in the polls.  I may even give Bernie the Nod if he appears the best populist who will be RESPONSIBLE.


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22105641 - 08/18/15 07:32 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:




I absolutely believe that.  And that I think is the key difference between what I feel the problem is and what many think the problem is (with the country.)  People blame corporate influence--yet the politicians have the power to fix that, and the politicians are put in or removed from office by the people.  Therefore, the people can blame themselves when they float a turd up the Potomac.




The politicians are paid by corporate lobbyists, and it's these lobbyists who actually write the legislation, complete with hidden clauses and and agendas other than the people's will, they then name the act something like "the milk for babies and kittens act" when it's really a bill allowing the corporations to bend the system in their favor, maybe "milk for kittens" is mentioned, but that's not all the bill provides...and the people vote thinking "who would not want to give milk to kittens and babies?" Not realizing the bill actually has nothing to do with milk for kittens or babies...


The wealthy realize that politics can be bought, they actually invest in politicians, buying their influence and legislation, the politician doesn't care about the people, and after these corporations or private billionaires pay that politician he is going to fight tooth and nail for that billionaire regardless of what the people want...

The tea party was invented by the Koch brothers, and these people still don't see how these billionaires manipulate government, I really did not want to get into all this here, because I could spend all day on the topic...so I'll stop here...

-E. Borodin


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Invisiblesh4d0ws
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22117460 - 08/20/15 04:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:

Drug use should not disqualify you, look at Hunter Thompson, he did damn near own an arsenal, and was loaded 24/7, and never did he hurt another person, even during his wild drugged out antics involving guns...




You do realize that Hunter S. Thompson used a gun to sink a bunch of boats, right?  That's hardly an argument for why drug use shouldn't disqualify you.





Hunter S Thompson also accidentally shot his wife...and not intentionally...

Should we still not disqualify drug users?


What a terrible argument for guns @ coincidentawhatthefuck.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: sh4d0ws]
    #22118162 - 08/20/15 07:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Drunk people shoot others all the time, much more often than other drug users. Should drinking disqualify someone?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22118223 - 08/20/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I think anyone with an abuse problem should be disqualified. I don't care if someone who occasionally drinks, or drinks responsibly. But if you're a raging alcoholic, who can't even remember your name half the time, then you shouldn't own guns.(Or really any heavy abuse problems IMO)

But the restriction shouldn't last forever. They should be proven clean for like 6 months to a year.


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22119769 - 08/21/15 01:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

pftt we have the worst system ever in management. sad...


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22120592 - 08/21/15 02:56 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
I think anyone with an abuse problem should be disqualified. I don't care if someone who occasionally drinks, or drinks responsibly. But if you're a raging alcoholic, who can't even remember your name half the time, then you shouldn't own guns.(Or really any heavy abuse problems IMO)

But the restriction shouldn't last forever. They should be proven clean for like 6 months to a year.




I don't think that's realistic at all. You'd have to find alcohol/drug abusers, take their guns and hold them while they get clean. Or confiscate them and make them buy new ones, but you'd have to hound after people, and make sure they were staying clean and whatnot... which isn't really possible. I myself am a recovered addict, and I know first hand that drug and alcohol abusers are some crafty motherfuckers, and relapse is quite a high probability.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22120606 - 08/21/15 03:02 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

A hair follicle test can show up past three months of drug use.


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