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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22090305 - 08/14/15 08:09 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:

I must have misunderstood what the founding fathers meant when they said INALIENABLE.




Nah...you're just applying the word to things they never applied it to.

Only one person on the planet can have absolute rights.  If you have a planet of more than one, then they have to either a) give up some rights, or b) fight to the death.


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22090505 - 08/14/15 09:47 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:

I must have misunderstood what the founding fathers meant when they said INALIENABLE.




Nah...you're just applying the word to things they never applied it to.

Only one person on the planet can have absolute rights.  If you have a planet of more than one, then they have to either a) give up some rights, or b) fight to the death.




All humans are equal, and authority is a man made concept, in reality nobody has the right to tell you what to do, unless what your doing is victimizing others...freedom is our God given right.

I think I'm interpreting what the founding fathers meant exactly, and yes, when they said INALIENABLE rights they were referring to the rights contained in the constitution as well as other venues.

There's a price to pay for your freedom, the risk of dangerous or unstable people obtaining guns is the burden we must carry in order to have the freedom. It's personal responsibility, I would rather take some responsibility, accept the risk, and accept that it's not the government's job to baby us and protect us from the "scary and dangerous world".

Gun control is unconstitutional

These rights were never meant to be regulated or debated, I've made my point over and over again.

Quote:

the founding fathers promised us the right to bare arms, this could not be more clear, and was not time sensitive, if you start trying to put regulations on our constitutional rights then what's next? Will free speech only apply to people who don't use drugs? You see where I'm heading with this, and like it or not it's a guaranteed constitutional right, like I said before, nobody likes that the KKK can use the first amendment to rally on the capitol steps, but people understand why even that is not a reason to start to try to regulate the first amendment....

Do you want to be free and take some personal responsibility? Or do you want the government to regulate and dictate all the things you can and can not do?..




-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22090572 - 08/14/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

...about Hunter Thompson sinking those boats, you do know he was a 17-18 year old kid when that happened, and was well aware the boats were empty, nor was he on drugs when the incident occurred.

-E. Borodin


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22090862 - 08/14/15 11:48 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:

All humans are equal, and authority is a man made concept, in reality nobody has the right to tell you what to do, unless what your doing is victimizing others...freedom is our God given right.




God is a man-made concept.  Freedom is as well.  Neither exist in any real sense.


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22091067 - 08/14/15 12:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Everything you know is a concept, but that doesn't make it false.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Achillita]
    #22091076 - 08/14/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Correct. 

No one has absolute rights.  Humans can't coexist like that.  As societies become larger, more and more rules are required so that people have reasonable boundaries.


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22091135 - 08/14/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

When most people talk about Freedom, they're really talking about security and legal protections.

Freedom, on the other hand, is a state of mind. 

It is possible to live in Iraq and feel very free and to live in the US and feel very confined.


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OfflineWAN
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22091758 - 08/14/15 03:48 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I am always in favor of civil rights.  I am a huge proponent of the 2nd amendment, but I recognize that it isn't an absolute right.  No right is.




First of all, I don't think he is arguing that certain rights are "absolute".  Secondly, let's say the 2nd amendment is not an "absolute" right.  So what?  Does that mean we can now start passing regulations that go against it?


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: WAN]
    #22091775 - 08/14/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

We always could.  The 2nd amendment is a fundamental right, so like all fundamental rights, the government can pass laws that regulate that right as long as there is a compelling government interest and the law is narrowly tailored to that interest.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22092197 - 08/14/15 06:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Quote:

the founding fathers promised us the right to bare arms, this could not be more clear, and was not time sensitive, if you start trying to put regulations on our constitutional rights then what's next? Will free speech only apply to people who don't use drugs? You see where I'm heading with this, and like it or not it's a guaranteed constitutional right, like I said before, nobody likes that the KKK can use the first amendment to rally on the capitol steps, but people understand why even that is not a reason to start to try to regulate the first amendment....



-E. Borodin




I've got a quote for you from one of those founding fathers:

Quote:

Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the arc of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it, and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present, but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves, were they to rise from the dead. I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind.  As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times.




- Thomas Jefferson

Now, if the evidence stacks up in a way that promotes gun restrictions to violent offenders and severely mentally ill people, then I don't think the T-man would have any objection to applying legal restriction of gun ownership to them. We should not uphold the constitution for sentimental reasons, if it is not in our own best interest.

The US Constitution is a wonderfully crafted document, but the way some people conflate the constitution with 'holy scripture' is actually quite scary at times. I particularly see blind patriotism married with religion on the conservative end of the political spectrum, and it has an effect of stifling dissent ("If you don't like the war you can get the fuck out!"), and causing folks to back illegitimate causes with great fervor for no apparent reason.

We should try to be practical, instead of sentimental.


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (08/14/15 06:02 PM)


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Patlal]
    #22093714 - 08/15/15 06:36 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

http://


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22093856 - 08/15/15 07:47 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
http://




Lmao

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22093957 - 08/15/15 08:15 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Quote:

the founding fathers promised us the right to bare arms, this could not be more clear, and was not time sensitive, if you start trying to put regulations on our constitutional rights then what's next? Will free speech only apply to people who don't use drugs? You see where I'm heading with this, and like it or not it's a guaranteed constitutional right, like I said before, nobody likes that the KKK can use the first amendment to rally on the capitol steps, but people understand why even that is not a reason to start to try to regulate the first amendment....



-E. Borodin




I've got a quote for you from one of those founding fathers:

Quote:

Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the arc of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it, and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present, but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves, were they to rise from the dead. I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind.  As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times.




- Thomas Jefferson

Now, if the evidence stacks up in a way that promotes gun restrictions to violent offenders and severely mentally ill people, then I don't think the T-man would have any objection to applying legal restriction of gun ownership to them. We should not uphold the constitution for sentimental reasons, if it is not in our own best interest.

The US Constitution is a wonderfully crafted document, but the way some people conflate the constitution with 'holy scripture' is actually quite scary at times. I particularly see blind patriotism married with religion on the conservative end of the political spectrum, and it has an effect of stifling dissent ("If you don't like the war you can get the fuck out!"), and causing folks to back illegitimate causes with great fervor for no apparent reason.

We should try to be practical, instead of sentimental.




I guess it's a matter of perception, I believe in true freedom and personal responsibility...I believe that so long as your not hurting anybody you should be allowed to do it, and the founding fathers thought the same...

These men were revolutionaries, the specifically granted us rights they were denied in an oppressive society, they gave us these rights specifically for maintaining a free society OF THE PEOPLE....they knew that risks came with these rights, these were not things they thought we "should" have, these things were NECESSITIES, and thus justified e risk that comes with that freedom, that the price you pay to be free.

I never said that it should be a free for all with guns, I said you can't judge someone before they have done something, you can't exclude people yo "think" might do something, if your a felon or have been committed to a mental institution your denied your 2nd amendment right. It's already regulated to "fit the Times"

It's your paranoia of unstable individuals with guns that should be in question, not my conclusions that guns are a necessity to defend your freedoms.


It's not being sentimental,the founding fathers understood the risks even in their time, and decided the benefits out weighs the risk.

Do you believe we should regulate the first amendment because it allows people like the Klan to mobilize on the capitol steps?

Where do you stop? Are these promised "inalienable rights" or suggestions?

It's your paranoia that unstable people will harm you that's leading you to push for gun control right?

It sounds like your willing to trade your freedom, your right, for government protection. It's not the government's job to ensure our safety from possible unpreventable events, and gun control is the worst way to go about it, why are these people comitting these acts?

The founding fathers implied that if your government were to ever become tyrannical and not of the people, that it's your patriotic duty to overthrow it, how do you expect to do this if we have been disarmed?

You can't have a free society and a gun free society, and I know you think we can have it both ways...an armed population is a necessity to defend against tyranny domestic and foreign.

Your right no freedoms are absolute, and no freedoms are going to be handed to you, you must fight to obtain and maintain them.

Like I said before,they knew that risks came with these rights, these were not things they thought we "should" have, these things were NECESSITIES, and thus justified the risk that comes with that freedom, that the price you pay to be free, these rights were NECESSITIES not wants, and the burden to bare as a result of these freedoms is your personal responsibility as an American.

-E. Borodin


Edited by Coincidentiaoppositorum (08/15/15 08:24 AM)


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #22093984 - 08/15/15 08:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Excellent points coincipoduminum, (or however your name is spelled) the founding fathers realized it better to be free men than to be beholden to a govt that gives not two shits about you. Even if that means life might be a little tougher...

It's baffling to me when anti gunners say "you don't need an AR-15 to hunt"... So what? For one, who the fuck are they to decide what I need? And two, the 2A was never about hunting...

I learned several important lessons very young that most people just don't get, life isn't fair and no one OWES you goddam thing!


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22094024 - 08/15/15 08:41 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

(...an add on to my last post:

I think the anti-gun people have their hearts in the right place, and I can understand their arguments, but I'm for freedom at all costs...

I'm not a democrat or a republican...my views are closer to  Anarcho-syndicalism than they would be to a democrats or a republicans or a capitalists...


...besides if you have been committed of a felony or comitted to a mental institution you are already denied your 2nd amendment, what more can you do without crossing the fine line into fascism?

I don't hold the constitution as sacred scripture, and I don't think I'm being sentimental, I feel I already made the argument above, and I'm sure we will have to agree to disargree here, but I would encourage you to question your motives, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


-E. Borodin


Edited by Coincidentiaoppositorum (08/15/15 08:43 AM)


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22094770 - 08/15/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Correct. 

No one has absolute rights.  Humans can't coexist like that.  As societies become larger, more and more rules are required so government can control the people as the people begin to realize how fucked up the government is.




There Enlil.  Edited so you argument is less specious.


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22094843 - 08/15/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Correct. 

No one has absolute rights.  Humans can't coexist like that.  As societies become larger, more and more rules are required so government can control the people as the people begin to realize how fucked up the government is.




There Enlil.  Edited so you argument is less specious.





Uh oh, your in for it now, Penile yelled at me one time for misquoting him, better fix that before he sees it...


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22097727 - 08/16/15 06:46 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:

All humans are equal, and authority is a man made concept, in reality nobody has the right to tell you what to do, unless what your doing is victimizing others...freedom is our God given right.




God is a man-made concept.  Freedom is as well.  Neither exist in any real sense.





I disagree, I'm not going to argue theology with you, but as far as freedom goes, I think freedom is the natural way of existance , we are all born free, the only thing that puts restrictions on our freedom is other people, animals don't live by governments, and in all actuality it is the government's and their rules that are artificial.

Besides what is "real" any way? Is the world bank real? You see what I mean? There's very few things that are not man made concepts in our pantheon of perceptions, but freedom didn't have to be invented, it's the natural way of things.

-E. Borodin


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum] * 1
    #22097834 - 08/16/15 07:41 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Animals eat by killing, mate by raping, and protect themselves by force.  If that is your definition of "freedom", then only the strong are free, and only while they're still strong.

The purpose of a society is so that this species can live a life less brutish, barbaric, and short.  It also allows a larger variety of human characteristics to thrive instead of only encouraging those traits focused on survival.

YOU are the one who applied the "man made" label for the purpose of devaluing something...not me.  I think man made things are wonderful and natural.  I think society and government are great human inventions, without which, there could be no advancement of the species.


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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Enlil]
    #22099018 - 08/16/15 02:41 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Animals eat by killing, mate by raping, and protect themselves by force.  If that is your definition of "freedom", then only the strong are free, and only while they're still strong.

The purpose of a society is so that this species can live a life less brutish, barbaric, and short.  It also allows a larger variety of human characteristics to thrive instead of only encouraging those traits focused on survival.

YOU are the one who applied the "man made" label for the purpose of devaluing something...not me.  I think man made things are wonderful and natural.  I think society and government are great human inventions, without which, there could be no advancement of the species.



I usually disagree with you on a lot of things, Enlil, but I gotta say this post of your is written beautifully.


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