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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22071490 - 08/10/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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The government has no reason to pull out full military force, our police are militarized enough and we're not organized.
If we did organize we're talking about the scenario in the forbes article which qman dismissed.
*edit* And don't get me wrong, I think there's some very valid reasons to own guns. Thinking we're going to protect ourselves from the most powerful military force on the planet just isn't one of them.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
Edited by paperbackwriter (08/10/15 12:26 PM)
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qman
Stranger

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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071524 - 08/10/15 12:29 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: We have radical government now. I doubt owning a gun is going to make me any safer if the police or FBI decide I need to be 'detained'.
Not radial enough for people to organize and form pockets of resistance. The idea of law enforcement trying to detain you when they could be picked off by 100 different snipers on the way to your house is not a fun prospect.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
People always say "that will never happen", but it has happened, that's what happened during world war II, and it seemed all well and good at first, but by the time the people saw the fascists doing horrible things with their government, they had already been disarmed and could not fight back...
-E. Borodin
If I had a dollar for every time I've heard the argument ... "the Nazis did it and it could happen in America" I'd be a gazillionaire. Frankly, the argument is absurd as the chances of what happened in Nazi Germany happening in the USA is about .00000001%.
The US Government is never ever going to get the military ad police to go full on gestapo, disarm the population and essentially support a fascist state. Why? Because military/police personnel are often the strongest pro gun and pro constitution people in the country. They just aren't going to do that. 9 times out of 10, the person suggesting the full Nazi-bloom in America have no frigging idea of the history of Germany or Europe in the 1900's and before. They also fail to think through how the heck the Federal Government would get the States to go along with a Nazi like takeover ... It's ludicrous.
It's tied into this constant paranoid fear state that is perpetuated by an apocalyptic mindset that has been implanted via eons of absurd religious myths. If you think the military would just blindly turn on the American population and follow an Executive Branch that wants to establish martial law, you really don't understand the military.
The notion that reasonable gun control to keep guns out of the hands of mentally sketchy people opens the door to the Nazi-fication of America is utterly and completely absurd.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22071686 - 08/10/15 01:11 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I somewhat disagree. The U.S. has done things like this in the past. What really seems to be missing from this argument is the how.
First a minority is scapegoated. Someone the average people can blame for their problems and otherize. Then the people themselves are eager to round up the other.
Then we end up like Germany. Oh hey look, we're still in the Trump thread. Imagine that.
But yeah, guns still aren't going to protect us. As I said earlier I'm not actually anti-guns. But I am against irresponsible people owning guns and I'm certainly against fallacious arguments that seek to undermine the conversation we should be having. Like why the fuck are we letting schools get shot up? Hurf durf, because I'm paranoid and my gun makes me feel safe from the big bad U.S. government is not a good argument.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071728 - 08/10/15 01:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe the minority they are scapegoating is the white male?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: Stonehenge]
#22071799 - 08/10/15 01:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Maybe the minority they are scapegoating is the white male?
You know what the word minority means right?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071871 - 08/10/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do you? White males make up 31% of the country.
31% sure seems like a minority to me (and math)
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#22071890 - 08/10/15 01:57 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Do you? White males make up 31% of the country.
31% sure seems like a minority to me (and math)
they are only a minority if the other 69% is a single ethnic group.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: psyconaught]
#22071900 - 08/10/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Except white women make up the largest population segment. Thus, white men still are not the majority.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071910 - 08/10/15 02:01 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I somewhat disagree. The U.S. has done things like this in the past. What really seems to be missing from this argument is the how.
First a minority is scapegoated. Someone the average people can blame for their problems and otherize. Then the people themselves are eager to round up the other.
Then we end up like Germany. Oh hey look, we're still in the Trump thread. Imagine that.
But yeah, guns still aren't going to protect us. As I said earlier I'm not actually anti-guns. But I am against irresponsible people owning guns and I'm certainly against fallacious arguments that seek to undermine the conversation we should be having. Like why the fuck are we letting schools get shot up? Hurf durf, because I'm paranoid and my gun makes me feel safe from the big bad U.S. government is not a good argument.
"why the fuck are we letting schools get shot up"
How are "we" letting schools get shot up? Nobody is "letting" it happen.
It's like asking the question, "why are we letting deadly car accidents to happen?" It's a framed question and has no meaning.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#22071916 - 08/10/15 02:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very clever. You take 62% and divide it in half and now you have the percentage of white males in the U.S. and it looks like a really low number.
Then you compare it to the rest of the population and you realize white people still make up the vast majority and that white men still hold most positions of power.
Math.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: luvdemshrooms] 1
#22071919 - 08/10/15 02:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Do you? White males make up 31% of the country.
31% sure seems like a minority to me (and math)
LOL!!! No doubt about it, white males have it tough in America ... are really getting taken advantage of and exploited. Tougher on every level for them. So few white males in positions of power in government, business, military, education ... they are locked out of EVERYTHING!!!! LMAO!!!
This thread has some of the dumbest comments I've seen in a long time.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22071920 - 08/10/15 02:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: "why the fuck are we letting schools get shot up"
How are "we" letting schools get shot up? Nobody is "letting" it happen.
It's like asking the question, "why are we letting deadly car accidents to happen?" It's a framed question and has no meaning.
You have to demonstrate that you can be a responsible driver before driving a car. You also have to carry liability insurance on the vehicle most places.
I would be okay with gun licenses.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071933 - 08/10/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
qman said: "why the fuck are we letting schools get shot up"
How are "we" letting schools get shot up? Nobody is "letting" it happen.
It's like asking the question, "why are we letting deadly car accidents to happen?" It's a framed question and has no meaning.
You have to demonstrate that you can be a responsible driver before driving a car. You also have to carry liability insurance on the vehicle most places.
I would be okay with gun licenses.
Gun licenses and mandatory training classes would be a huge improvement.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071935 - 08/10/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Very clever. You take 62% and divide it in half and now you have the percentage of white males in the U.S. and it looks like a really low number.
Then you compare it to the rest of the population and you realize white people still make up the vast majority and that white men still hold most positions of power.
Math.
You math sucks. Whites make up more than 62%.
Math. Love it, use it correctly or don't rely on it to make a moronic point.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22071940 - 08/10/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
qman said: "why the fuck are we letting schools get shot up"
How are "we" letting schools get shot up? Nobody is "letting" it happen.
It's like asking the question, "why are we letting deadly car accidents to happen?" It's a framed question and has no meaning.
You have to demonstrate that you can be a responsible driver before driving a car. You also have to carry liability insurance on the vehicle most places.
I would be okay with gun licenses.
Really, do you know how many illegals immigrants drive without a valid drivers license? Do you know how many people drive with insurance? Do you know how many people drive intoxicated?
"okay with gun licenses"
OK, but how is that going to prevent someone who wants to shoot a lot of innocent people from doing so?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22072012 - 08/10/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Except white women make up the largest population segment. Thus, white men still are not the majority.
Depends on age group. Women live a bit longer than men but the birth rate for men is a bit higher. Yes, on average women outnumber men by about 3% (yes, 3% is what you're using to justify stoney's use of the word minority). Even then, that's not until 65 and older. Most people retire before then and right up until that point men out number women every step of the way.
So yes, compared to women, men will be the minority, once they hit the nursing home. The rest of the time they're certainly not a minority and they certainly don't have a minority sway over the policies and direction our country and corporations take.
But regardless, white people are not a minority in the U.S.
Quote:
qman said: OK, but how is that going to prevent someone who wants to shoot a lot of innocent people from doing so?
Gun safes, trigger locks, and keeping ammunition in a separate safe would all be a start. Let's call this 'liability insurance' for gun owners. If you can't keep your weapons out of the hands of your psychotic kids why should you be able to have one?
Along that same vein, if you have a child in the house (or anyone else for that matter) that has ongoing mental health issues should a gun really be there? Would disallowing guns in such situations reduce gun related deaths (suicides and homicides)?
And of course basic firearm safety should be something else that should be demonstrated for gun licences mostly to prevent accidents.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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qman
Stranger

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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22072035 - 08/10/15 02:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Except white women make up the largest population segment. Thus, white men still are not the majority.
Depends on age group. Women live a bit longer than men but the birth rate for men is a bit higher. Yes, on average women outnumber men by about 3% (yes, 3% is what you're using to justify stoney's use of the word minority). Even then, that's not until 65 and older. Most people retire before then and right up until that point men out number women every step of the way.
So yes, compared to women, men will be the minority, once they hit the nursing home. The rest of the time they're certainly not a minority and they certainly don't have a minority sway over the policies and direction our country and corporations take.
But regardless, white people are not a minority in the U.S.
Quote:
qman said: OK, but how is that going to prevent someone who wants to shoot a lot of innocent people from doing so?
Gun safes, trigger locks, and keeping ammunition in a separate safe would all be a start. Let's call this 'liability insurance' for gun owners. If you can't keep your weapons out of the hands of your psychotic kids why should you be able to have one?
Along that same vein, if you have a child in the house (or anyone else for that matter) that has ongoing mental health issues should a gun really be there? Would disallowing guns in such situations reduce gun related deaths (suicides and homicides)?
And of course basic firearm safety should be something else that should be demonstrated for gun licences mostly to prevent accidents.
I don't think any disagrees with safety when it comes to guns and ammunition. The fact of the matter is, very sane acting people can commit horrible acts that are insane in nature. There is no screening process that can stop it.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22072163 - 08/10/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm saying I believe gun safety should be demonstrated prior to having a gun license which would be required for legally purchasing and owning guns. If you can't demonstrate that you can keep your weapons out of the hands of hormonal kids I don't think you should have one. Just like many states require you to have insurance before renewing your driver's license gun owners should have a gun safe etc. etc.
To continue along the driving analogy we test eyesight prior to issuing licenses. Showing proof of mental competence can be done by showing that the applicant isn't currently undergoing court ordered alcohol or drug treatment of any kind, showing that they don't have a history of violence, harassment, or if they do that they've received proper treatment and show a track record non-violent behavior, similar to how 'points' can be recovered on a driver's license.
No, this won't prevent all gun violence anymore than driver's licences prevent all accidents. But I don't think anyone can argue that testing teenagers prior to giving them a licence doesn't at least reduce motor vehicle accidents and fatalities.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Centerfinger
George Clooney is a Spy!



Registered: 04/20/12
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Re: So Trump started off badly but he's making more sense every day... [Re: qman]
#22072202 - 08/10/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Gun safes, trigger locks, and keeping ammunition in a separate safe would all be a start. Let's call this 'liability insurance' for gun owners. If you can't keep your weapons out of the hands of your psychotic kids why should you be able to have one?
Let's turn the US into Canada. The problem is criminals whom want to do damage will disregard these requirements making the law abiding populace less able to defend themselves. Getting rid of "no gun" zones would be a better solution. Isn't it funny that the last few mass incidents all happened in no gun zones.
An armed society is a polite society. Look at the drops in gun related incidents in Arizona after they passed their concealed carry laws where a permit is not required. No one knows who is packing heat and apparently criminals don't like to take return fire.
More people die from prescription pain killers than gun violence. I also don't doubt that there is a bunch of deaths from gun violence due to prescriptions. http://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/public.html
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
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